 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: orichic
Date: 2017-01-04 03:03
I play on a 40 year old Buffet R13 and I've been told by a local music shop/repair shop that I should get my clarinet repadded due to the pads getting worn out or whatever it was he said. I thought it was funny he said that because I've been having terrible Tuning issues on this clarinet (It's terribly flat even with everything pushed in all the way and warmed up) for some time this semester in college, especially my middle C and G keys (other keys affected as well of course, just not as dramatic).
Will repadding my entire clarinet fix these tuning issues I've been having? I've also been told by my Clarinet Studio Professor that the G seems affected and speculated that it's the key right under neath the "A" key that it might be closed in too far and might have to be opened up a slight bit more but she's just speculating at that point.
If it helps, I usually play on Size 3 V12 reeds and an M13 Plastic Mouthpiece. Barrel seems stock without any real serial on it so assuming it's a 66mm.
Here's a video of me playing a klezmer solo where I've been told I'm unusually flat by the band professor if it helps at all. https://youtu.be/ooARV8nGZWM?t=5m32s
I've been trying to figure out if it's better to just invest in a completely brand new Clarinet or just invest in a repadding and general maintenance on what I have now since money is a big factor to this as well.
Decade long Clarinet Player currently in college studying Music Education
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-01-04 03:19
The short answer is no. However, if your instrument does have leaks it will benefit from a repad. The M13 mouthpiece is well known for playing flat, I would highly recommend you invest in a 65mm barrel if you wish to continue using the M13.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-01-04 03:39
Ditto what jdbassplayer said.
However...
orichic wrote:
> I've also been told by my Clarinet Studio
> Professor that the G seems affected and speculated that it's
> the key right under neath the "A" key that it might be closed
> in too far and might have to be opened up a slight bit more but
> she's just speculating at that point.
>
There's no real need to speculate about this. Take the key off (it can be removed independent of anything else but the 1st ring) and see if the pitch is better or not.
If you mean the chalumeau C (C4 - three fingers of the LH), another possibility is that the bridge keys aren't adjusted correctly and either or both the first pad at the top of the RH and pad between LH 1st and 2nd fingers are being held too close to their holes. You can test this either by rotating the bottom joint so the bridge keys aren't engaged or by entirely removing the RH set of rings.
A 40 year old clarinet probably has a number of desiccated pads (unless they're all cork), so repadding and regulating (corks, springs, etc.) won't hurt. An R13 should be worth the cost of a good re-conditioning if the work is done by someone who is competent.
Karl
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Author: orichic
Date: 2017-01-04 03:40
I haven't been told it has leaks so I don't know if that could be an issue. Any recommendations on a specific mouthpiece and barrel for the Buffet R13? I don't mind switching out between equipment if I have to. It's the cheaper option than total repairs.
Decade long Clarinet Player currently in college studying Music Education
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-01-04 05:57
IMHO a Clark Fobes mouthpiece would be a good choice:
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/collections/soprano-clarinet
Mr. Fobes should be able to help you decide which mouthpiece/facing will suit you best. If you do end up getting a new mouthpiece you may find that your pitch will come up and a new barrel may not be necessary.
If you prefer to stick with Vandoren be sure not to get a "13 series" mouthpiece as these will all most likely be flat. The 5RV and B45 are fairly popular mouthpieces that are also higher in pitch.
Whatever new mouthpiece you choose, try before you buy. Take advantage of any trial policy you can. If possible go to your local music store and try every mouthpiece you can.
Hope this helps.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-01-04 06:39
Get rid of the M13. It tunes flat. Save your money on pad replacements unless the horn is squeaking or resistant.
There are a lot of mouthpieces on the market that will tune higher in pitch without costing $300 and up to $1000.
I'm kind of on a personal mission here to make clarinet playing fun without breaking the bank.
I'll repad your clarinet for free, but it will still tune flat. You can try a smaller 64mm barrel or a different mouthpiece. If you like Vandoren's try the BD5 that tunes to 442. There are 2 models, so get the 442. The cost is about the same as the M series. You will need a lighter straight reed probably. The B series Vandorens also tune higher than the M series. If you don't like these well it's time to pay the big bucks for something around $250 and up.
But look around. A stock mouthpiece may save you a lot of money.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-01-04 06:56
jdbassplayer wrote:
> If you prefer to stick with Vandoren be sure not to get a "13
> series" mouthpiece as these will all most likely be flat. The
> 5RV and B45 are fairly popular mouthpieces that are also higher
> in pitch.
>
I know the Series 13 VDs have taken on a reputation as "flat," but keep in mind that they were designed to play at A440 on an R13 with a standard barrel (66 mm). They are not an adequate explanation for a clarinet's playing "terribly flat." They *are* flatter than a Traditional series VD, and if you use a traditional one, you will play a little higher - they are meant to play at A442, I believe, again with other standard R13 equipment.
So, a few questions come to mind:
Have you tried a 3.5 V.12 with your M13? Is that a #3 you're playing in the Klezmer video?
What do you mean by a "plastic M13" (AFAIK, the Vandoren line is all made of hard rubber)?
Have you tried actually measuring the barrel? If it's actually longer than 66, it could be a partial explanation. The best measuring tool is a Vernier caliper, but you can stand the barrel up on a desktop, hold a metric ruler up next to and put a flat surfaced object across the top of the barrel to meet the ruler (I wouldn't try to eyeball it - 1 mm isn't very long).
Is the facing on the M13 original (not refaced)?
Has your studio teacher suggested a new mouthpiece? It seems that she would be your first source of recommendation if she believes the mouthpiece is responsible for the bad pitch.
From only the evidence of the video, it really sounds like the reed you're playing on is too soft for the mouthpiece you're using, although in theory a #3 V.12 shouldn't be that much of a mismatch. But your teacher hears much more of your playing and should have some ideas of how to bring the pitch up. It does seem more general than just throat G and low C, but if those are noticeably flatter than everything else, inadequate pad clearances may still be part of the problem.
There must have been more discussion between you and your teacher about this than you're relaying here.
Karl
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-01-04 08:01
If your clarinet hasn't been serviced in a long time it is almost certainly leaking. If the pads are brown or no longer flat (except for a slight impression), they need changed. New pads will play better.
If it hasn't been serviced in years, I can guarantee 100% that it will play much better after an overhaul by a good technician. Before I did mine it was leaking like a seive. Everyone laughed when we put it on the Magnehelic at repair school, because it leaked so much, but I still played it! It plays A LOT better, and I keep it in adjustment. Get it fixed and see how it plays before getting another barrel or mouthpiece. It might not fix your particular intonation issue, but it might improve it somewhat by getting rid of crud in the bore and toneholes, and with venting, and you'll be glad you did regardless. I think most people would benefit from an overhaul going into college. The technician has to be quality though.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: orichic
Date: 2017-01-04 08:09
I'll admit the #3 V12 I was using in that video is an old reed I've used since August only because I'm having a very tough time playing on newer #3 V12 reeds being too rough and extremely uncomfortable to play on.
My studio Professor told me to try #3.5 reeds so I bought myself #3.5 V21 to test out but the roughness of those reeds is unbearable for me so I also, bad habit just resort back to my soft #3 V12 reed for practices and performance even. It does give me anxiety that I'm going to squeak more often since it does happen and can feel it gripping off but I squeak much much more often the harder the reed is.
My big thing is I have an old Plastic Bundy Clarinet I used when I was in High School Marching Band and Concert Band and when I test tuning on that clarinet, its nice and sharp which is what I prefer since it is more adjustable than my flat R13. Big reason why I've been thinking there is something wrong with the instrument but I'm not completely knocking off the possibility of it being the Mouthpiece and sub equipment.
Decade long Clarinet Player currently in college studying Music Education
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-01-04 12:08
I have to add that a good repairman can adjust the height of keys, do some undercutting of tone holes, things of this nature, which I can do, but it can only work on some notes. Actually just a few notes, per scale. If you aren't careful, as a repairman you can wreck a horn for life, trying to tune it, or trying to tune the 10ths.
I have to repeat this. Finding the right mouthpiece and the correct barrel combo with your horn is key. For example the Moennig barrels do NOT work on the newer Buffet clarinets. The bores from 1975 or so to the present are too large.
Depending on which Buffet you buy, testing 15 or so R13's, they will all tune differently, some requiring barrels as short as 64 mm's on an A clarinet. It's just wrong. It throws off the tuning completely in the upper register...
Since you have a horn playing flat avoid the M series, try the 5RV's to the B45's whatever you think. Even a Selmer might be a nice match. HS or an HS*.
From working with Hans Moennig he was often very upset with Buffet when he'd get in his barrels. They weren't cut to his satisfaction and he'd ream them out himself.
Expensive, but decent are the Guy Chadash adjustable barrels. But ask him to send 4 or 5 and pick the best one. He can be hard to talk with. Doesn't listen well, but his barrels are decent, but expensive.
If you have measuring tools the perfect taper is a reverse taper of 10 thousandths of an inch. .595" to .585" should tune your older horns well. But the .595" can vary dependent on the mouthpiece opening. Some are only .585". This taper is so important to get right.
It's much easier to get a shorter mouthpiece, which will probably solve most of your problems.
The M13 mouthpieces are just shy of 1/32" longer than a standard mouthpiece. In barrel length that's really close to 1 mm. So a 65 mm barrel may not work on your A clarinet and you will need a 64 mm. YUK! That's not how you fix horns.
Oh, Hans usually tuned peoples horns with a Chedeville mouthpiece and a 67 mm barrel. Chedeville mouthpieces were even shorter then. Some Kaspars were too, because the Kaspar family bought some Chedeville's.
Sorry folks, I just get so frustrated with the M series mouthpieces and Vandoren AND Buffet saying the American orchestras want to tune to 440. This is just so wrong on so many levels and they need to fix their horns and mouthpieces accordingly and hopefully fast.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2017-01-04 15:54
You wrote in your original post:
>> I've also been told by my Clarinet Studio Professor that the G seems affected and speculated that it's the key right under neath the "A" key that it might be closed in too far and might have to be opened up a slight bit more but she's just speculating at that point. >>
You should try cleaning out that hole anyway; detritus can easily have the effect you describe. Check the A, G# and speaker tube while you're about it.
You can, with care, increase the clearance of the pad yourself. It's regulated by the sliver that goes under the RH trill keys. Bend that up a tiny amount with, say, a screwdriver, using leverage against the LH thumb assembly.
It's helpful to have, or make, a small hook to relocate the needle springs after reassembly of the LH rings and G# keys. You can do without, but there's a knack to it that I never fully acquired...
Tony
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2017-01-04 16:08
orichic,
I'm missing some information here:
- what exactly is "terribly flat"? For some people, everything <20 cents off is acceptable while others get their knickers in a twist if the instrument is off by more than 5 cents. (A440 vs A442 is a bit less than 8 cents)
- when was the instrument last properly serviced? I don't mean repadding, just the "annual" clean/oil/adjust thing.
- do other players (with their mouthpiece and reed on your clarinet) have the same symptoms? If yes, it's the instrument. If no, it's the reed/mouthpiece/embouchure combo.
I agree that testing a shorter barrel cannot hurt. Lots of repair folks have drawers full of these. (just to check the tuning, tone quality is a different thing altogether)
--
Ben
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-01-04 17:08
I guess I'm the only one who thinks leaks can affect tuning - but I can't say whether an overhaul will solve solve your issues. I would not do any tuning on the clarinet till it seals.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2017-01-04 17:29
Ben wrote:
>> what exactly is "terribly flat"?>>
He posted a video, on which you can hear that his open G is indeed very flat, though the band itself is hardly a model of intonation:
https://youtu.be/ooARV8nGZWM?t=5m32s
He's on the flat side in general, but that crucial sustained note sticks out.
It's worth saying that if you're onstage in such a situation, you CAN play a sustained G sharper, say by adding RH trill key(s), and it's a player's responsibility to be aware enough to do that in performance – even though obviously it shouldn't be necessary, and might be awkward to manage. You have to do what it takes to be acceptable on the instrument you have available.
My bet is still on detritus in the hole, plus (perhaps) too close regulation of the pad.
And, that hole anyway affects only the open G (and to a much lesser extent the G#); wood sometimes moves over the years, so it may anyway need to be enlarged. The rest of the instrument would be unaffected by such an adjustment.
Tony
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2017-01-04 17:48
Thanks Tony, somehow the video slipped under my radar.
I agree that *knowing* that and where you're flat is half the solution. And listening to others is crucial, although not always consistently encouraged/enforced in band (at least some of those I'm subbing in).
I also agree with partly clogged tone holes, which should be detected and taken care of even in most basic COA servicings, hence my question.
--
Ben
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-01-04 17:50
The one way I can imagine leaks figuring into the pitch problem is in the effect they will have on response, which may lead to using softer reeds. A #3 V.12 isn't *that* soft for an M13, but if it's a soft #3...
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-04 19:02
If you want to be certain there aren't any leaks caused by porous pads, then cover all the pads with cling film (scrunched on the backs of the pad cups) and then see if it's more responsive. If the pads aren't seating, then that will need to be addressed. Also damaged or imperfect toneholes will cause leaks - if each tonehole or pad has a small leak, then that soon adds up to one big leak with every pad on the instrument.
All too often the open G vent pad (LH1 ring key) never gets enough venting - either due to a pad that's too thick, key corks that are too thick or a repairer that's too thick.
I fit a thin cork pad in that vent key and open it up so that when the throat A key is held down, there's not much between the underside of the throat A touchpiece and the top side of the open G vent pad cup and sometimes have to recess the underside of the throat A key to gain more venting if the pad cup isn't domed or flattened.
Buffet are the main culprits of not enough venting here and they can be improved. As well as using thin silencing materials on the thumb ring and the linkage arm from the LH1 ring key, increase the venting by bending things and using thinner pads. I like cork pads as they don't bulge in the centre, but the tonehole has to be made perfect so there aren't any nicks or chips in the rim which will cause leaks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2017-01-05 04:43
Well, let me back up a little bit, just in case it's useful. We may not need the 'complete rebuild' philosophy, or the 'replacement barrel/mouthpiece' philosophy.
You haven't said whether or not you've found gunk in the G vent; here's how to find out. Please let us know if you do or don't.
You need a screwdriver that fits the screws/rods. It's not too difficult to file down the tip of a long screwdriver (you need the length to avoid your hand catching on the body of the instrument as you rotate it) if you can't find one of the right tip and length dimensions. You should always carry one that's appropriate in your kit.
Remember, trying to use the 'wrong' screwdriver can damage the slots.
Then, remove Ab key and A key. Check that these toneholes are free of fluff or other gunk: a pipecleaner is ideal, but otherwise whatever is to hand.
Now unscrew and slide out the rod that holds the LH rings. A gently applied pair of pliers may help.
There are two bits, the one that you want to remove to get at the G vent, and the one that carries the E vent. It's possible to leave the second one dangling with its spring in place, but my experience is that it's best to remove that too. Be careful that you don't skewer yourself with the sharp end of any spring.
Now gently wangle the top one out. The sliver that goes under the trill keys resists that a bit; but you can depress the trill keys to help. Don't force anything.
Use the pipecleaner or whatever to probe the G vent. (I find it quite satisfying to look down the bore and see what you've dislodged:-) You can then swab through to remove the detritus permanently.
As I said before, you can rehook the springs before sliding the rings in place; but the most efficient way is to put the rods back in and then use a tool (Howarths sells one, for example) to rehook the springs afterwards. It's probably worth noticing exactly where they were, and which way round, before you start. (Take a photograph on your phone if you think it will help.) A bit of oil can also profitably be applied to the rods before you reinsert them.
I've written this ostensibly for you, but also for others. Though you yourself may not feel this way, it's quite normal for a player to be apprehensive about doing this sort of thing. But I say, because we can find ourselves in difficulties without recourse to professional help, it's as well to practise the basics. Work on a clear tabletop, with a cloth on top.
(We could also talk about the use of rubber bands in emergencies another time:-)
All of this assumes that the screws undo without problem. If they don't, further discussion is required.
Tony
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Author: orichic
Date: 2017-01-05 06:25
Just to update: I went to the local Music and Arts store and I got to test out the 5RV, as well as a Rico X0 and X5. I still had the exact same Intonation issues. X0 gave me an awesome tone but that's not what I'm there for. Coincidentally, the dude there is a Clarinet Major like me at my same college but with more years of experience and recommended to me the Rovner Versa Ligature for a good start.
More lucky chances, the older community Clarinet Player came into the store and let me try out his barrel which was a stock E11 and was roughly a millimeter shorter than my own barrel combined with testing out his Vandoren Optimum ligature and my regular V12 size 3 reed and what do you know, the clarinet went sharper. Originally I was 20 cents flat but with that E11 Stock Barrel, I went roughly 18-22 cents sharper on my open G and C4 note and everything nicely in between so I'm going on a limb and saying it is my setup, Mostly my barrel.
They did comment that I should get some specific keys on my upper and lower joint repadded with corks instead of the cheap material they put on it that it could help. I also mentioned how the key beneath the "A" Key has been speculated to being a little too closed in and he says he thinks it is too closed in and could probably be lifted a tiny bit.
Decade long Clarinet Player currently in college studying Music Education
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-01-05 19:33
Tony Pay wrote:
> Though you yourself may not feel this way, it's quite normal
> for a player to be apprehensive about doing this sort of thing.
> But I say, because we can find ourselves in difficulties
> without recourse to professional help, it's as well to practise
> the basics.
If you are working toward a career in instrumental music teaching, this is all the more important. Kids can do really odd things to their instruments, usually accidentally. If you need to send an instrument out to a shop every time a key binds or a pad falls out, your students will be without their instruments far longer than if you can do basic disassembly/reassembly yourself. You may already be comfortable with doing what Tony suggests, but if you haven't already learned some of this skill, it's not too early.
It's also important as a music teacher to know when the problem is out of your pay grade and more experienced, better equipped help is needed.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-06 20:09
I wouldn't ever recommend anyone attempt to remove the LH1 ring key without first removing the side and trill keys as on most clarinets, there isn't much room for manoeuvre without the risk of tearing off the key cork on the LH1 linkage arm.
So as well as removing the throat G# and throat A keys, remove the side Eb/Bb key, then remove the side F# and both of the trill keys together. The flat springs on these will force the keys upwards when the rod screws are undone, so keep your thumb on the top of the keys to hold them in place when undoing them. The LH1 ring key can then be removed easily without trying to get the linkage arm through the arch in the trill keys and not catching the linkage arm key cork on the needle spring.
Wherever possible, always disengage needle springs from their cradles before removing the rod screws on the LH ring keys and when replacing them, engage the spring after the rod screw has been replaced as it may cause problems fitting the rod screw with the spring engaged which can lead to crossed threads if you force it back in and tighten it up without engaging the threads correctly.
And while the springs are disengaged, you can check the action of the ring keys to be sure they move freely and don't bind up if you've tightened them up too much - especially the RH2 ring key which is mounted between two points and they have to be set so the key neither binds up nor has any end play, so getting that set up is best done with the spring disengaged to check the key is moving nicely.
If you are using a pipe cleaner, double the ends over so there aren't any sharp ends of the wire core left showing which can scratch the tonehole or the bore. Cotton buds (Q-tips) are much safer as they have a soft stick (plastic, paper or wood) which won't do any damage to the tonehole if you're having to use some effort to remove stubborn dirt.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-01-07 03:55
Pad heights affect the tuning. It means that a complete repad can both fix and break the tuning.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-01-07 04:17
More venting is better than low venting. More tuning, tone quality and response problems are caused by too little venting than having too much. This is made more apparent in the lower register, so get those ventings set good and open.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2017-01-07 18:27
The ventings for C4, C5, C#5 and D#5 can be too large on some clarinets, resulting in a too large unevenness of response (eg, D#5 compared with D5). Though it's the job of a player to minimise that unevenness – it constitutes a large part of period instrument technique – our job can be made more or less difficult.
So even if it's true that "more tuning, tone quality and response problems are caused by too little venting than having too much," each individual case needs treating on its merits. A clarinet that would benefit by a particular venting being reduced needs that particular venting to be reduced.
We still don't know whether tonehole occlusion or low venting is contributing to the original poster's excruciatingly low G4. His willingness to produce and continue to produce such a note on the video, plus his subsequent responses, lead me to give up on him.
Tony
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Author: orichic
Date: 2017-01-07 19:05
Tony, I haven't been able to respond because I'm working at a Drum and Bugle Corps camp. Sorry I have disappointed you. As for all these technical repair fixes, that's beyond my ability and I'll just have to have a professional look at it. Most I can do besides that is work on my setup which I found is most effective with a barrel change.
Decade long Clarinet Player currently in college studying Music Education
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