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 Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: pandaclarinet 
Date:   2016-12-23 16:13

I'm searching for new mouthpiece.
I'm playing on R13 and I use Vandoren V12 #3 reed.
I'm interesting in Backun and Richard Hawkins
(and Other Zinner one).
P+ and O+ (Backun) and R (Richard Hawkins) are very good.
I like them all and the R model most but I have to use #3.5+ reed.
Do you have any recommendations for #3 reed ?
The G model (Richard Hawkins) sound interesting but I never tried it. Is it good ?



Post Edited (2016-12-23 16:13)

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2016-12-23 17:02

My recommendation, if you like those mouthpieces, is to buy some #3.5+ reeds. What is your reason for trying to keep the reed strength and match a mouthpiece to it?

Karl

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: pandaclarinet 
Date:   2016-12-23 17:41

Dear Karl,

Thank you, it's reasonable.
I thought that if I use harder reed I won't be able to control it because of more pressure but as you said if I like it I just have to buy it with #3.5+ reeds and practice for the change.

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2016-12-23 17:46

The reed and mouthpiece work together as a system. If you've found a combination that works well - lets you play your best, count yourself fortunate and use it.

Karl

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: ClarinetRobt 
Date:   2016-12-23 19:20

I've had great luck with Fobes' and Behn's Zinner mouthpieces too.
Every brand mentioned so far are terrific.

~Robert L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage, Lig: Ishimori, Reed: Aria 4, Legere Euro Signature 3.75, Horns: Uebel Superior, Ridenour Lyrique

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: sfalexi 
Date:   2016-12-24 22:08

If you truly want to use a lighter reed, look at the K14 from Walter Grabner. It does (IMO) have a slightly different sound than a close-tip mouthpiece, but I find it to be a pleasant difference in sound. Should sound and work fine with a 3 reed. (or maybe a 3.5 reed slightly shaved down)

Alexi

Platoon Sergeant
US Army Japan Band


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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Carmelo 
Date:   2016-12-24 23:28

Great advice frim the above posts but if I may suggest if you want to use the V12 3 then reach out to Robert Borbeck, Greg Smith or Fobes. The mouthpieces are very reed friendly.

Merry Christmas to everyone on the BB!



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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: pandaclarinet 
Date:   2016-12-25 00:04

Thank you ! for all suggestions. I will look for all mouthpieces that you recommend.



Post Edited (2016-12-25 00:17)

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Mrdi 
Date:   2019-12-12 19:56

Grabner K14 works well with the softer reeds.
I am using a 2.5

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Ken Lagace 
Date:   2019-12-12 20:44

A mouthpiece with an open facing uses a softer reed and visa-versa. I can make a facing easily where a #1 reed is too hard and another that a #5 is too soft.
Unless you have a hundred or more boxes of #3's, it is prudent to get a nice mouthpiece and use whatever reed works on it.



Post Edited (2019-12-12 20:46)

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Djudy 
Date:   2019-12-12 23:11

While looking into getting a new mp for my R13 ('79) I found this chart to be very helpful, especially since there is nowhere here I can find anything but the 'Big 3' to test play.

https://www.howarth.uk.com/acrobat/HowBbMPChart.pdf

Also can someone tell me where a Vandoren 2RV would fall ? I have 2 old ones that are not bad at all, one with the model stamped in a non-sertif font on the front and the other in a very old fashioned typeface stamped to the right of the table just above the tenon (the 'foot' of the '2' in both cases is not flat but a wiggle like a til over the n in Spanish). They both seem rather closed but I'm using a 2.5 with better luck than a harder reed.





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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Wicked Good 2017
Date:   2019-12-13 01:14

Also can someone tell me where a Vandoren 2RV would fall ?

The 2RV is exactly the same as the 5RV, which is on that chart. Same mouthpiece, different name.

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Djudy 
Date:   2019-12-13 12:36

Thank you !





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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Bob Bernardo 
Date:   2019-12-14 19:58

The Vandoren 2RV is about 0.41" or 1.04mm's. It's on the border of 1.03mm's. So between these 2.


Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces


Yamaha Artist 2015




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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: NBeaty 
Date:   2019-12-15 00:08

Correction to previous post: 0.041" is around 1.04mm.

I have over 20 2RV's on my desk at the moment and they vary between 1.02mm to 1.07mm.

While the 5RV is just a renaming of the 2RV, it's worth noting that the 2RV's tend to be closer in tip opening than modern 5RV's as well as having thinner and better shaped side and tip rails. This means that the 2RV's generally have better response and focus than the modern 5RV.

It is also worth noting that compared to the A blank Zinner mouthpieces (the 1 + 2 ligature line "440" blank that was used by most everyone in the US) are not inherently any better than a vintage 2RV. The 2RV's do have better inherent focus and resonance than A blank Zinners. The A blank Zinners also are more likely to sag in pitch, particularly in the throat tones, than the 2RV's.

The Zinners, in addition to frequently being aesthetically/artistically disappointing in rail shape that is often either ignored or exacerbated by many mouthpiece refacers (very large and rectangular rails), have tables with a cavern of concavity, deep baffles, and other factors that make the A blank have less resonance, focus, clarity, than a more traditional design.

While some of these factors can be fixed or compensated for to a degree, it's worth noting that it is much easier to make these factors worse than to improve them. This is why so many Zinners that have had work done to them in fact play worse than they did fresh out of the box as a blank.

That said, the Zinner E blank (1 + 1 ligature lines) have more conservative internal dimensions and more material to work with before reaching diminishing returns. While they play higher in pitch than the A blank, the tuning scale is usually more even and the sound generally has more focus and clarity.

When you look at a mouthpiece that is based on the 1+2 A blank Zinner, take note of how much work was done to it by the maker. Is the table original (tool marks from left to right instead of tip to tenon and shiny)? Does it appear to have hand tool marks or sanding on any of the rails or internals? Or does it appear to be a blank that someone stamped a brand name on and sold?

On the one hand, I would say if you don't see anything that would indicate it was actually worked on beyond the factory, then it seems silly to pay hundreds of dollars for something that someone just put a name on and sold to unsuspecting players. On the other hand, as described above, if you see a lot of tooling marks or evidence that a Zinner A blank was worked on heavily, it very well could play much worse than one that was left closer to factory/blank specifications. Either way, it's good to be educated enough to know what you're buying.

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Djudy 
Date:   2019-12-15 01:39

Just took a gander at my 2RV and the 5RV lyre I started out on (but no longer like or use) and there is is an obvious difference , the rails on the 2RV are much finer and more 'elegant' and the table is like glass. I can see the machine marks on the table of the lyre if it's tilted just so in a glancing light. I like the 2RV; good definition.

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: Ed 
Date:   2019-12-15 06:32

Quote:


On the one hand, I would say if you don't see anything that would indicate it was actually worked on beyond the factory, then it seems silly to pay hundreds of dollars for something that someone just put a name on and sold to unsuspecting players.



I recall that years ago as Zinners became popular, a well known mouthpiece craftsman who told me that the blanks were quite good right from the factory and there were some out there who were calling themselves mouthpiece makers and doing little if anything other than putting their name on them.

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: NBeaty 
Date:   2019-12-15 07:29

Ed wrote:


> I recall that years ago as Zinners became popular, a well known
> mouthpiece craftsman who told me that the blanks were quite
> good right from the factory and there were some out there who
> were calling themselves mouthpiece makers and doing little if
> anything other than putting their name on them.


There's significant truth to that. Take note of how many people started doing mouthpiece work AFTER Zinner blanks became readily available (and not because they were simply too young).

When I started doing mouthpiece work back in 2010, one of the first pieces of advice I received was to do at least 6 months of refacing before ordering any zinner blanks. Learning to make completely unplayable mouthpieces into great players taught me more about mouthpieces than a lifetime of working on Zinners.

It's a bit like learning how to change your oil in your car and then claiming to be an auto mechanic because you did work on the car and it runs. The saying, "like a rooster who thinks they made the sun come up" is also applicable.

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: J. J. 
Date:   2019-12-15 07:31

I heard a similar story.

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 Re: Backun, Richard Hawkins and Other Zinner Blank Mouthpieces
Author: gwie 
Date:   2019-12-15 11:23

I have a fond place in my heart for the 2RV. My first teacher played on one for nearly her entire professional career, and the one I bought in high school was my first good mouthpiece. It's worn and discolored, but I keep it around for good luck. :)

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