 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jenny Brand
Date: 2009-06-18 15:23
Hello!
I’m currently writing a PhD Thesis on Boosey & Hawkes clarinets. I’m especially interested (unsurprisingly!) in the 1010 models.
I’d love to hear from:
a) Anyone who has played 1010s and would like to tell me about their experiences of them.
b) Anyone who owns a 1010 or a pair of 1010s.
c) Anyone who is a listener or player with thoughts / feelings / opinions /
anecdotes about 1010s and those who play(ed) them.
Hope to hear from some of you soon,
Jenny Brand
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-18 17:14
Hi Jenny,
Many threads on this BB already about the B&H clarinets --- search and ye shall find!
Good luck.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-06-19 07:55
Hi Jenny,
I still own and play on 1010s - I have mentioned it in a few other threads. I''m happy to help. Is there anything in particular you would like to know?
Vanessa.
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Author: Kenneth
Date: 2009-06-23 22:36
I also own a pair of 1010s which I bought second hand about 5 years ago and which I still play from time to time. I had them overhauled soon after I got them however, although I have a certain affection for them and enjoy the sound they produce (especially the full-bodied quality in the throat register - a weak area in many other clarinets - and lower part of the clarinet register, just over the break), I do find that there is a stuffiness most marked in D and E at the upper end of the lower register and the corresponding A and B in the upper register - especially pronounced on the A clarinet. I attribute this to their age as I presume that they must have been freer-blowing when newer. This, together with some intonation issues, can make playing them rather hard work. Does anyone else have this experience of their 1010s or have any suggestions regarding ways of remedying this?
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-06-23 23:43
I played Boosey 1010s through my college career and then moved over to the Eaton Elite 1010 model. Contact me offline if you'd like more info about my professional experiences with these instruments.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-06-24 07:04
I have a 1955 1010. Happy to discuss if you are interested
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Author: andy collins
Date: 2009-06-24 18:26
I have a 1939/40 vintage 1010 and would be pleased to share information with you.
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Author: licorice_man
Date: 2010-04-21 23:48
Hi Jenny,
How is thesis coming?
I just bought a 1010 and am looking for reviews of the strengths and weakness'
of the instrument including its changes over time?
Can you refer me to any internet literature?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-22 00:34
I have a somewhat unique experience. As a novice clarinet player MANY years ago, I fell in love with the sound on a recording of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto played by Gervase DePeyer. It took just a little research to find out that he played Symphony 1010s and it became my mission to own a pair.
So at about my third year of playing I made this happen. The funny part is that I am a mid-western American. The Boosey "sound" is considered anathma by your well respected Franco/American players. Even though I was shunned by my peers in-the-know, it was my mission to make this work. It became apparent that the "sound" is attributable to the style one imposes on the horn as much if not even more than the horn itself. One hallmark to the approach is to form the interior of your mouth as if you are saying the sound "AHHHHHH" (as you would for your doctor). Another aspect is to be amenable to using vibrato in a classical setting.
By the time I hit college there was too much peer pressure (and TEACHER pressure) to change and I caved in to the siren sound of the Buffet R13.
It is safe to say though that the Boosey (large bore) 1010 can have a more plastic (that is "flexible") sound without getting thin like its American counterpart in sound (for instance Richard Stoltzman). The great players of this style are Gervase DePeyer, Reginald Kell and Jack Brymer (to name the latest and most poignant examples of the 1010 style).
The problem with this sound is that it can be too diffuse to be as effective in a full orchestral setting as the French or French/American style of playing. Of course I would hasten to add that I am still a "fan" of the most traditional versions of this "British School" of playing and only cast a comment to the other side in the spirit of being "fair and balanced."
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2010-04-22 00:39)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-04-22 11:44
Paul, you should try an 'intermediate-bore' Boosey, any of the models from Edgware up through 926; get a sound midway between the all-out 1010 "English" sound and the R-13 sound.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-04-22 18:20
Although B&H did make 3 "special" 1010s which extended to low Eb but were not full Boehm system and gave one of these to Reg Kell (Benny Goodman had another) Reg hardly ever, if at all, played it, sticking primarily to his Martels. All his well known recordings were on Martels.
Frederick (Jack) Thurston was one of the earliest exponents on the 1010, in his case pre-war 1010s. Thurston was one of UKs leading players in the 30s/40s and teacher of majority of the next generation of British players.
Thurston's sound on the 1010 was quite different from Brymer and dePeyer, much more focussed and even steely. I believe Thurston used a very close lay whereas Brymer, dePeyer and many others favoured quite wide lays.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-04-22 19:57
Paul wrote:
"The problem with this sound is that it can be too diffuse to be as effective in a full orchestral setting as the French or French/American style of playing."
Sorry Paul, this is just not true. Principals of the BBC Symphony, London Philharmonic, Royal Opera House and English National Opera all play 1010 model clarinets, either Boosey and Hawkes or the more modern Eaton Elite. They all sound great and project well. I too have never had a problem projecting in an orchestral setting.
You should try your old 1010s and see.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-22 23:02
The biggest problem to which I refer regarding projection is in a section of R13s particularly in the chalemeau. You can just about bust a gut and your sound won't compete.
I've noted a similar problem with the Leblanc Concerto, so this is not exclusively a British problem.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-04-23 05:49
also, note that he cautiously wrote "it CAN be too diffuse"...
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-23 09:25
Peter Cigleris wrote:
>> I too have never had a problem projecting in an orchestral setting.>>
Well, addressing this problem, on whatever instrument, is the concern of any good player. Different instruments have different good and bad points, and most people agree that good projection in the chalumeau register has always been best solved by the German instrument. Other instruments require more careful input from the player.
Peter is very sure of his mastery in this regard. I usually prefer to ask someone out in the hall if I sense that there may be a problem in a particular passage on a particular occasion.
I spoke about my own switch from 1010s, first to Buffets and then to other instruments, in:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=282118&t=280454&v=t
...which thread contains further assessment by Peter of his own playing.
Tony
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-04-23 13:02
Kell's instruments are unlikely to be by Martel, since they date from a period when Hawkes had started making the instruments themselves. These are often called "False Martels". In any case there is no certainty that Martel Freres made any or all of the pre Great War Hawkes instruments either, though the tradition that they did is strong and is likely to entail a kernel of truth.
Paul, did you ever hear De Peyer (or Brymer for that matter) speak? Listen to their voices and you begin to understand the tone they made. The voicing of the literal voice reads across to the clarinet sound.
As regards Thurston, yes he played on 1010s but also played on Hawkes/Martels(?) as shown in Shackleton's collection book. For example, he must have used these to make his mid 20s acoustic recording of the Brahms Quintet. One has to be careful as to which recordings of Thurston were done on which instruments, though most of the famous ones (e.g. the Bliss Quintet) are highly likely to have been on the 1010s.
Ramon W has seen his mouthpiece so can comment further on the attested position that Thurston's lay was close. If De Peyer could be enticed to write on this board then it would be interesting to hear what he might say about his teacher - Thurston's - appraoch and how De Peyer took a different route. Certainly it is possible to find 1950s LSO recordings where it is likely the player is De Peyer, but the sound seems to have a kindred link with Thurston. By, say, 1970, the two players were so far apart that no link can be discerned.
Since we do not appear to have heard back about this PHD exercise (I wasn't asked for any information re my 1955 B flat 1010) an aspect of 1010 design that might have been explored here has not been. That is that it feels to me (having played pre-war 1010s and late 1970s 1010s in addition to my 1955 model) that the 1955 model is appreciably different. It is much more resistant to air pressure at the bottom of the lower and clarinet registers, and overall produces a tighter sound than either of the earlier or later examples. Perhaps B&H tried to get them a tad closer to the German approach with a later flare in the bore. If anyone wants to view the instrument in Central London I would be happy to make arrangements.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-23 13:39
I thoroughly agree with Tony's summation at the end of his linked article. To paraphrase, "artistic players sound more similar than different despite their equipment."
My non-Boosey story that is along these lines is when Professor Rieckhoff of the Hochschuler in Berlin was visiting our school in Chicago to do a few seminars with Larry Combs. My classroom was adjacent to the performance space that was to be used shortly and I heard a very clear, loud clarinetist warming up to play. I assumed that was Larry Combs since I assumed that German clarinetists all sounded "smaller" and "creamier (?)" than us guys. To my great surprise and JOY (I might add, since I already had my order in for a pair of Oehler system Wurlitzers) it turned out to be the honorable visiting professor.
I've tried to be more open minded ever since.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: ronnie
Date: 2016-12-21 08:29
I am searching for a B and H Symphony Bb, if anyone wishes to part with one I would be grateful.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-21 18:29
Ronnie, I'm sure you know about them, but I had very good luck with an Imperial Eb from Clarinets Direct ordering from the U.S., and there are always 1010s available.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-21 20:27
ronnie -
The B&H Symphony and 1010 clarinets are all quite old by now. I would advise going with the Eaton International, which is an improved clone of the Symphony, or the Elite, which is a 1010 clone.
I would also be careful about buying from Clarinets Direct. The owner is enthusiastic, but his knowledge is not deep and his evaluation of playing qualities could be better.
Ken Shaw
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Author: graham
Date: 2016-12-21 20:53
Hi Ken
Isn't this the owner: http://www.rcm.ac.uk/junior/rcmjdteachers/profile/?id=JD564
If so, then I would have thought he is knowledgeable enough.
Graham
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-12-21 21:52
Re Ken's post above
The words Symphony and 1010 are essentially synonimous as the "Imperial 1010" was also later called the Symphony or the 1010.
The Eaton Elite is not a clone of the Symphony (which has a bore of 0.600 / 15.2mm) but has a bore of 14.8mm which is considerably smaller than even the Imperial 926 model.
22/12 - Sorry, that should say International not Elite in above paragraph.
Post Edited (2016-12-23 03:14)
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2016-12-21 22:23
Yes, the 1010s are old, but if in good condition and well-maintained they can still give excellent service. I'm guessing Ronnie is looking for just that. I wouldn't have any qualms about dealing with Clarinets Direct. In my experience the owner is well-qualified to comment helpfully on what he's selling, and his descriptions and photos are detailed, accurate and honest, as you would hope for. However, the only worthwhile judgement on what an instrument is like to play is your own. If the description says "we have given it a full overhaul" it only tells you that the instrument needed some TLC to make it more saleable.
Howarths of London also regularly have 1010s, and they occasionally appear on the second hand lists of other UK retailers, such as Woodwind and Reed, Myatt and Dawkes.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-21 22:24
I thought the International was the one with the narrower bore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-22 00:24
Well, my 1010s from 1983 still give excellent service; it's the player I worry about. Yes, the International has the narrower, and probably polycylindrical, bore. Had the pleasant opportunity to visit Peter's workshop in September, and he certainly talked as if, consistent with what I'd understood from his website, the Elite bore is essentially the same as the 1010s, with subtle tweaks he didn't elaborate on. He uses the same mouthpiece for both, and he's very picky about matching the mouthpiece to the bore. I compared the Bb he had there with my 1010, and the playing characteristics were essentially the same, but Ken's very correct about the Eatons being a preferable choice. I found the tuning better, the response more even, the sound a bit better, and the feel more comfortable. I wish he'd kept the action mechanism as an option, though. Used Eatons, when you can find one, seem to go for several times what a 1010 does.
Only had one experience ordering from CD, but the instrument arrived promptly and is exceptional. Asked for, and received, an email from the previous owner, who confirmed the particulars of the description on the website. The prices seem comparable to Howarths, which also has been very quick and reliable in shipping abroad, though I've never bought an instrument from them. There's also a website http://www.sellmyclarinet.co.uk/index.php where you seem to be dealing directly with the owners, but it assumes you're located in the UK.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2016-12-22 02:52
I've had several pairs of 1010s and most with original 1010 mouthpieces and some with long rod screws. If I can be of help please get in touch. I have photos too if they would help.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-12-22 03:21
Norman: I'm puzzled by this statement of yours:
> The Eaton Elite is not a clone of the Symphony (which has a bore of 0.600 / 15.2mm) but has a bore of 14.8mm which is considerably smaller than even the Imperial 926 model.
I don't have an Elite, but I do have an international Bb. The dimensions of its upper joint are 15.13 (top) 14.80 (bottom). The dimensions of the Elite will be larger, so I would have expected a figure bigger than 14.8, even at the smallest point.
But as my figures illustrate, the International has quite a taper (although who knows if it's polycylindrical or conical). However, the old B+H models were much more cylindrical. For 1960s instruments, I get the following:
Imperial 926 15.01 (top) 15.05 (bottom)
Symphony 1010 15.36 (top) 15.39 (bottom)
So the International is narrower than the 926 at the bottom, but a lot wider at the top. Since Peter improved the 1010 tuning, I'd bet he must have introduced a taper in the Elite as well.
Indeed, I had an interesting conversation with him about the genesis of the International. Based on that I think he started out making an Elite with a shrunken bore, and then tweaking the tone holes. So if I had to guess, I'd predict that an Elite top joint would be 15.2 to 15.3 at the top and 14.9 to 15.0 at the bottom. Are you able to measure the taper on one, or does anybody else have figures?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-22 03:37
graham -
I bought a Robert Martel from Clarinets Direct that was misrepresented (or, more likely, ignorantly represented) as a desirable Charles Martel. He also wrote that it had Draper's "X" scratched on it below the thumb rest (a sign of his personal testing and approval), which it did not.
Worse, he had a "propeller wood" Pan American represented as made from a fighter plane propeller, and highly desirable. He offered it at a high price, when it was one of the worst clarinets ever made. The "wood" finish was plastic, laminated to a black plastic body, and the two layers de-laminated after a couple of years, not to mention the fact that the wood finish was merely a decal that rubbed off.
He may be a good player, but he overhypes his stock.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ronnie
Date: 2016-12-22 09:37
Thanks Guys for your most helpful comments. I am after the large bore instrument which rules out a number of models. I will follow up some of the leads, currently talking to Howarth's of London.
Many Cheers
Ronnie
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Author: Black Rod
Date: 2016-12-22 20:43
Ken Shaw
As far as I am aware the B&H Symphony and 1010 clarinets are the same thing.
B&H Symphony 1010 (wide bore) is a clone of the Peter Eaton Elite. The Peter Eaton International I would say is Eaton's version of the B&H Imperial 926 (small bore).
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-12-22 21:10
> The Peter Eaton International I would say is Eaton's version of the B&H Imperial 926 (small bore).
I once asked Peter if this was the case: his reply was a very strong "no!". He created the Elite by starting from the 1010 and thinking how to improve it. But the International was an original creation that started from an Elite, with Peter wondering how to make something with a similar sound quality but with a narrower bore. My clear understanding from talking to him was that the 926's design played no role in this process.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-22 22:39
John,
I also get the idea from the website and things he's said in interviews that the International is intended to work with the same mouthpieces people use with Buffets, whereas that will not work at all with Elites. Is that your understanding?
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-12-22 23:09
dorjepismo:
Yes, that's right. The International tunes well with mouthpieces suitable for buffets.
The 1010/Elite mouthpiece is larger in bore (and more cylindrical). The main effect of playing such a large-bore mouthpiece on a normal-bore clarinet is that it suppresses the overall pitch and in particular makes the throat tones flat. This is the same effect that one sees with the Vandoren 13 series mouthpieces, but more extreme - and really beyond what one can correct for with a short barrel, although that does help a bit. Similarly, if you had to play an Elite on a normal mouthpiece in an emergency, you'd pull out the barrel quite a bit but would probably still find the throat tones a bit sharp.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-12-23 03:36
John P,
yes sorry I mis-typed my post (now corrected) which should have said International is the 14.8 mm bore.
The Imperial should have a perfectly parallel top bore of 15.05mm throughout but in used examples there is often some reduction in the bore at the top tenon due to shrinkage of the wood. (Why don't people regularly oil this part of the bore especially in it's early life !!)
My early 926s still measure a parallel 15.05 throughout but a later 1979 model has bore of about 15.15 mm (sloppy reaming ??) but still parallel to the top.
When I was working with him Peter told me he had introduced some taper in the top bore of the International.
When I made the basic bodies and bores there was no taper but all the final reaming, undercutting and tuning was done by Peter himself so can't vouch for the exact amount of taper.
It was certainly not polycylindrical.
As far as I remember there was no bore taper on the Elite but significantly more tonehole undercutting than on a B&H 1010.
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Author: ronnie
Date: 2016-12-23 06:59
I am negotiating with Alex re Symphony 1010. I will advise of outcome. He has a selection of 3 1010,s available.
Ronnie
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Author: Clarinets Direct
Date: 2017-01-15 18:30
Dear Jenny,
Apologies for responding to your post, rather belatedly. Tony Pay was kind enough to send me a link to it before Xmas. I would be glad to welcome you if you wanted to try a large selection of various 1010's. I would also be happy to put you in touch with Dr. J H, who has just completed an excellent Doctoral thesis on the history of clarinet and m'piece manufacture by Hawkes, Boosey, and Boosey & Hawkes. Which, co-incidentally, makes interesting reading, when compared with much of what has been written in responses to your post. I was fortunate enough, with Tony Lamb last Friday, to be given the chance to try out a batch of many 3D printed B&H m'pieces, as part of a new project by Dr. J H. For obvious reasons I would be happiest to discuss the details of this less publicly.
My email is
clarinetsdirect@gmail.com
Kind regards,
Alex Allen
4 Thornbury Avenue,
Isleworth
TW7 4NQ
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-01-15 20:46
Alex,
It would be really great if information on obtaining copies of the thesis could be posted here once it becomes available! Had a chance to try out several Ed Pillinger mouthpieces modeled after pre-war B&Hs, and got a sound right out of an old Kell recording with all of them. Interesting experience, though I'm very glad you can get a more continental sound out of the 1010s as well.
How available are 1010s that have been expertly tweaked for tuning? Only ever seen a few of those advertised.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-01-16 00:14
Yes, I also would like to read the 1010/Boosey & Hawkes thesis!
Vaughan
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Author: Jocelyn Howell
Date: 2017-05-30 15:38
If anyone is interested, here is the link to my thesis (as mentioned by Alex Allen above). It is a detailed history of the company and its antecedents, concentrating on the manufacturing side of the business (not the publishing). It also covers the development and progression of instrument models.
Boosey & Hawkes: The Rise and Fall of a Wind Instrument Manufacturing Empire.
It can be accessed at City University online.
http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/16081/
It can be downloaded at the top of the page by the ‘thumbprints’ of the thesis and appendices, which include lots of info. - Therefore there are two volumes.
Please let me know if you have problems accessing it.
As Alex mentioned, I have recently been working on a project with Steve Cottrell 3D printing some B&H 1010 mouthpieces. These have been created by using measurements from technical drawings in the B&H Archive; some were faced by Ed Pillinger. Alex and Tony tested them, with pleasingly musical results!
Steve Cottrell and I are presenting a paper on our project at the Galpin Society/AMIS conference this week in Edinburgh.
Jocelyn
jocelyn@hallinans.net
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-05-30 18:11
Jocelyn: well done for finishing your PhD, which should be an interesting read. But the link you gave only provides the thesis in a "redacted" form with all the diagrams and photos blanked out. I'm sure City University is to blame for this vandalism, rather than you, but is there anywhere that the original document is available?
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Author: Jocelyn Howell
Date: 2017-05-31 00:06
Dear John
I'm afraid I'm to blame for the lack of photos. They require copyright clearance for publication. I felt it was more important to allow access to the thesis than to wait.
I can let you have an electronic copy.
Will you be in Edinburgh this week? Please contact me via my email.
Best wishes
Jocelyn
jocelyn@hallinans.net
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