 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-12-15 09:56
How do you tell a fancy Albert from a simple Oehler?
Is there any telltale keywork differences?
As far as I've read, it sounds like the chief difference is in the bore.
Basically, I was wondering if any of the "Albert" clarinets on ebay were actually Oehler systems, and how I would know.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2016-12-15 09:57)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-15 10:09
Oehler systems have a solid fingerplate for RH finger 2 which closes two side keys instead of a ring key and tonehole chimney as others have.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-12-15 11:47
Thanks.
Is there a difference between "Albert" clarinets and "German System" clarinets without the RH2 plate?
In the link below, 622 is "German", and 632 is "Oehler". It's the same on the Yamaha site.
http://www.uebel-klarinetten.de/english/models.html
http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical-instruments/winds/clarinets/germanclarinets/
I presume the "German" models are student models. Some of the Yamahas have fewer than 6 ring keys. Are they much different from older "Albert" clarinets?
It looks like the "German" clarinets always have those little key cups that bud off of the ring keys.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-15 19:27
http://www.uebel-klarinetten.de/english/models.html
From what I understand, German systems have from four to six rings and all open fingerholes and from 17 to 22 keys, whereas Oehlers are the pro models and have five rings and the 'Griffplatte' for RH2 and from 24 up to 28 keys. Oehlers are often classed as 'Theatre Model' (eg. Yamaha YCL-657/Uebel 632) and 'Soloist Model' (Yamaha YCL-857/Uebel 634)
There are far more basic beginner instruments with 13 to 16 keys.
Austrian models are either 21 or 22 keys and have six rings.
Albert/simple systems made by Albert, Buffet, Boosey&Co, etc, will have a different bore to German models, so you have to check the bore to be sure - the lower joint bore on German clarinets will start to expand below the lowest tonehole and on Alberts the expansion starts much higher up by the double F/C key toneholes.
The keywork on both is very similar - German models typically having more ring keys with vents soldered directly to the rings (the key cups that bud off the rings) and roller keys to their Belgian, French and English counterparts, but the more expensive Albert/simple systems will have more ring keys and also have roller keys to help with sliding from key to key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2016-12-16 00:15
Attachment: IMG_0188s2.jpg (390k)
Some examples of Albert/ German/ Oehler Bb- clarinets (picture from bottom to top):
Albert system by Albert, Bruxelles, ca. end 19th century, hard rubber, typical „wrap around“ speaker key, two rings, 15,1 mm on topside of upper joint;
German system by Carl Kruspe Erfurt, ca. end 19th century, Grenadilla, four rings, 14,9 mm;
Oehler system by F.A.Uebel, #8642, 1936, Grenadilla, without E improvement, 14,7 mm;
German system „Top sound“ by Richard Keilwerth, modern, Grenadilla, six rings, Diam. unknown
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-17 01:12
Kohlert is most likely German (German bore) and Conn is most likely Albert (French bore).
If you want an old German system, then stick with recognised German makes to be certain as Belgian, French, English or American makes will most likely have a Belgian bore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-12-17 07:54
MichaelW wrote ''...Albert system by Albert, Bruxelles, ca. end 19th century, hard rubber, typical „wrap around“ speaker key, two rings, 15,1 mm on topside of upper joint;...''
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In my view the bottom instrument is more commonly known as a ''simple'' system. I have five, one of which is played daily.
The second from the bottom, is what I would (and my colleagues) describe as an ''Albert'' system. I have three, one of which is played daily.
The two pictured above these look to be ''Oehler'' system. I DID have one and played it exclusively for awhile until it was sold. That said, it could (I suppose) be described as a ''German'' system. I'm not as familiar with German/Oehler system as I am with Albert and simple system.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-17 14:27
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,5265/IMG_0188s2.jpg
The top one is most likely a 22 key German system - the model immediately below an Oehler system if it was in the lineup offered by a maker. The 2nd one from the top is an Oehler - what you will see on an Oehler system is the covered fingerplate for RH finger 2 instead of a ring key. The RH2 tonehole has been moved to the side of the joint instead of being placed directly under it.
- - - - - - - -
Clinton systems (popular with British players at the beginning of the 20th Century) also have a fingerplate for RH2, but it's an extension plate on the relocated pad cup and they have a single side key for Eb/Bb and F/C which is a nice feature. Depending on how they were made, they have a hole going through the middle socket and tenon - if the tenon is on the top joint (as per usual), the C/G tonehole on the lower joint goes through it. If the tenon is reversed and at the top end of the lower joint (so the lower joint has tenons at either end), then the hole goes through the C#/G# tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2016-12-17 16:40
Attachment: IMG_0111_a.jpg (464k)
Attachment: Tziganila.jpg (58k)
Ned: To my knowledge the designations „Albert“ and „Simple“ system are used synonymously and were not in use in Germany. Maybe some of the major factories like Kohlert exporting to the US offered „Albert“ models there(?)
By Carl Kruspe Erfurt I have in my little collection eight clarinets from 1830 to 1925 so I can follow up the origin and development of the „German type“ clarinet from the Iwan Müller type over two and four ring (second from bottom) models in the 19th century to a very special Bb/A- set of six ring clarinets from about 1925, extended to low Eb (s. picture attached here)*.
I am quite sure that none of these would be called an „Albert“ system: As you see with my „bottom“ specimen, the Albert by Albert Bruxelles differs from the German models at least in two points: the „wrap around“ speaker key and the wider bore. I am sorry I couldn't measure the bore geometry and width more in detail.
As Chris P writes the top one is indeed a typical „German“ model. It is comparable to e.g. Yamaha YCL 457-22 or F.A.Uebel 622. The difference between „Oehler“ (second from top) and modern „German“ systems is also pointed out by Chris P.
*OT: Perhaps somebody can help me: These enlarged Kruspes must habe been made about 1925 to special order for a transsylvanian virtuoso named „Jean Tziganila“. The name, besides „C.Kruspe Erfurt“ is engraved on all pieces. Till now I couldn't trace it any further.
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Author: cledzh
Date: 2016-12-17 19:54
I agree with Michael W that "Albert" and "Simple System" are more or less synonyms.
Albert system clarinets made by the Albert family (or other belgian makers such as Mahillon) have a very characteristic keywork design with very rounded, smooth keys but no rollers.
The name "Albert" became synonymous for simple system clarinets because the simple system instruments made by the Albert family were extremely widespread at some point.
On Michaels photo the instrument on the bottom, by E. Albert, was most likely made for the english market: the "zic-zac" speaker key and the long key for a flat (for the middle finger of the left hand, not the index) are typical for instruments made for Britain.
As far as I know german style clarinets (Oehler system or non Oehler) usually have from the late 19th century on vent keys ("Resonanzklappen") attached to the rings, the typical c sharp key with the additional touchplate for the right index finger (the Baerman Ottensteiner clarinet had this too) and the wrap around key mentioned by Michael - but american (Conn,...), english (Boosey,...) or belgian (Albert,...) clarinets can have wrap around keys too.
Oehler system clarinets need to have the forked f mechanism invented by Oskar Oehler (the touchplate for RH middle finger is part of this invention). without this they may be german but are not Oehler system.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2016-12-17 22:16
Michael - thanks for the photo! I love the case - so many special slots and compartments!
By the way - what are the teardrop extensions on the G#/C# key used for? I've been playing an Albert system since around 2007, but I've never gotten into the habit of using the teardrop for anything, and I wonder what technique I must be overlooking?
Thanks,
Fuzzy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-17 22:53
That's to make a C-Db/G-Ab/alt.E-F trill easier using RH1 instead of trilling with the left pinkie.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2016-12-17 23:06
Quote:
to make a C-Db/G-Ab/alt.E-F trill easier using RH1
Thanks Chris!
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2016-12-18 02:12
Attachment: IMG_0190.jpg (419k)
@cledzh: You are right. The instrument is marked, besides „E.J.Albert Brussels“, with „ Sole agents J.Heyworth & Son- Blackpool- Paris London“. The „zig-zag“- speaker key is indeed different from other makes which have a one piece S- shaped wrap around key. „Wrap around“ to my knowledge is a special feature on Albert system clarinets, meaning that the speaker hole is on top, in line with the A key, while on German and Oehler models it sits at the LH side a bit above the center line.
@fuzzy: The double case once was top quality but was now badly worn. I stripped it completely, will renew the inner lining and luckily know a very good leather worker who will cover it in the original red (!) leather. Btw: These old wood- carved cases are little works of art themselves- see photo.
The „teardrop“ extension on the C# key seems not to be widely used: on two of my instruments it has been sawn off. On the smaller C clarinet it may be obstructive for RH1.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2016-12-19 07:05
Michael - thanks for the new photo! That really is amazing! I've been tempted to create my own cases for a handful of clarinets I own, but I had never disassembled an old case to see how they're made before. Your photo has given me courage to give this a try!
If you think of it at the time - perhaps you could post photos of the completed restoration?
Thanks again,
Fuzzy
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2016-12-19 17:06
Did you notice that this last photo inadvertently, by faulty lighting, has become a tilted image? Especially instead of the excavations for the bells you might see protrusions.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-19 20:43
At first I thought it was a wooden positive form to make vacuum formed plastic trays from! Took some doing to see they were the indentations instead of all protrusions.
Have they even carved out a slot to fit a Cordier reed trimmer?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2016-12-19 23:04
Michael - funny you should mention that. Upon first look, all I could see was the negative form. My wife (looking over my shoulder) seemed perplexed, and then asked if the form were protruding. After some time, I could see it too. Fun photo.
Fuzzy
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-12-20 00:10
Thanks for all the good info...
I have a case to fix as well, I'm going to start a thread.
- Matthew Simington
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