 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-14 20:43
I have particular affection for Benny Goodman, as he was the first jazz clarinetist I ever heard in the flesh, and also the first Classical one; playing the Mozart Concerto with an orchestra that played it with more enthusiasm than ability. My theory is that he was very good when playing works that he commissioned; less good when playing the standard repertory (Brahms, Webern, Beethoven, etc.). My explanation for this is that works specifically composed for him had his tone and style in mind and were thus ideally suited to him. Your opinion?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2016-12-14 21:57
Depends on who you ask and whether Goodman is in or out of vogue at the time.
I've seen that swing back and forth several times in the last fifty years.
Same with Reginald Kell. Oh, and Robert Marcellus, too.
B.
Post Edited (2016-12-15 23:00)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-12-14 22:29
I still love Benny's recording of the Copland Concerto. He's also enjoyable on Bernstein's Prelude, Fugue and Riffs. He made a recording of the Debussy Rhapsody way back in about 1940, which I've heard a couple of times and remember thinking was impressive, but it's been a while.
I've never really enjoyed his Mozart, Brahms, Weber, though.
Not sure I'm answering (or want to answer) the "how good" question. There are some things I like, some I find interesting, others I don't. I'm not particularly concerned with his classical playing beyond that.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-15 06:34
Benny's 1950s recordings of the Mozart Concerto and Quintet with the Boston Symphony players were excellent. His tone was beautiful, his phrasing was impeccable and his technique was perfect.
His later recordings were less good, particularly those made in his old age, but when he was young he was a formidable classical player.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2016-12-15 09:03
I heard Goodman play the Weber 1st concerto in a broadcast with the NBC Symphony, and it has stayed with me forever. I do not care for his LP of
Brahms. We all have dissimilar tastes about just about every clarinetist.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-15 14:02
I meant Weber, and not Webern obviously! Not quite the same style.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-15 14:08
Clarineteer: I don't think Artie Shaw played very much Classical music. At least not in public. I knew Jimmy Hamilton when I was a youngster; the great clarinetist with Duke Ellington. He always said he felt Artie Shaw was more creative than Benny (to use his words). He also had tremendous admiration for Benny, though, and was probably more influenced by him. Jimmy Hamilton studied with Russianoff and played Classical music for his own pleasure. He never dared or got the chance to play it in public (not many African-Americans did in those days).
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-15 17:36
Artie Shaw made a few classical recordings, which were excellent. In particular, his phrasing always matched the harmony (as did Goodman's -- exactly what you would expect from a jazz player). I particularly like his Mozart Quintet.
For similar musical understanding, listen to Gary Gray.
Ken Shaw
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Author: antaresclar
Date: 2016-12-15 19:31
Here is an interesting story related to this topic. At Yale there is a collection/archive of a man named John Hammond. Hammond was a huge CBS record executive and talent scout who worked extensively with Benny Goodman and was himself an excellent violist. Hammond was the one who introduced Goodman to Fletcher Henderson which had an obviously huge impact on Goodman.
There is an interview with Hammond in the collection where he talks about an evening where he invited Benny Goodman to come and read through the Mozart Quintet with him and some of his fellow colleagues, an act he referred to as "one of the biggest mistakes of my life."
Hammond went on to say that after that evening and first foray into classical music Goodman went further into the classical world and became obsessed with reeds, mouthpieces, his sound etc...Falling into the traps that all of us "classical" clarinetists fall into, something that Hammond felt hurt Goodman's playing permanently and for which he felt eternally responsible for.
Of course Goodman went on to commission and be a part of some of the greatest "classical" works written for the clarinet, and as such was extremely important to the classical clarinet repertoire so history in many ways proved Hammond wrong.
As a side note, Benny Goodman's archive is also at Yale and among the material is a telegram from Prokofiev telling Goodman that he is about to start working on the Concerto for him that they had discussed...this one of course unfortunately never came to be.
Garrick Zoeter
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-12-15 20:44
"There is an interview with Hammond in the collection where he talks about an evening where he invited Benny Goodman to come and read through the Mozart Quintet with him and some of his fellow colleagues, an act he referred to as "one of the biggest mistakes of my life."
Hammond went on to say that after that evening and first foray into classical music Goodman went further into the classical world and became obsessed with reeds, mouthpieces, his sound etc...Falling into the traps that all of us "classical" clarinetists fall into, something that Hammond felt hurt Goodman's playing permanently and for which he felt eternally responsible for."
Hmmm. I'd have to read the interview (or hear it). This doesn't sound quite right. If it's an accurate representation of something Hammond said, it would indicate a bit of self-aggrandizing. Benny had a thorough classical education from Franz Schoepp in Chicago during his adolescence, and his (early pre-Kell influenced) sound concept was already fully formed by the early '30s. I seriously doubt Goodman needed a read-through of the Mozart quintet to become concerned with his equipment and sound. And considering the fantastic playing he did long after that session (think of the Capitol Trio recordings form the late 40s, Sextet recordings from 1950, the list goes on and on) well...there's nothing there to regret...or take credit for if your Hammond. But like I said, I'd have to see exactly what was said.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-12-15 20:47
Agreed. Artie's classical playing was very nice indeed. The WOR sound check of the Mozart Quintet is great. He also released an album for Columbia called "Modern Music for Clarinet" which had several transcriptions of Debussy, Ravel, et al--some of the arrangements were recycled for Branford Marsalis's "Romances for Saxophone" in the mid-80s.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2016-12-15 21:36
We could debate forever as to whether Benny or Artie was the better jazz
clarinetist (I vote for Artie). But, Goodman's true gift to the classical
clarinetist, briefly mentioned by Garrick, is that Goodman commissioned
clarinet works of importance from Bartok, Copland, Hindemith, Milhaud,
and Morton Gould.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-16 01:06
Dear Eric, Hammond was dictatorial and patronizing. Things had to be done his way, and as a wealthy, well-connected producer, he wielded power. It was a breach of etiquette for other people not to yield to this power. When Duke Ellington composed his extended piece: "Reminiscing in Tempo", Hammond declared him pretentious. A black composer should stick to writing ditties.
I imagine you knew Artie Shaw personally. Unlike Benny, I suppose Artie Shaw never studied Classical clarinet formally. Am I wrong in assuming this? What is true, however, is that Benny developed an inferiority complex about not having been fully formed as a Classical musician. This led him to study with, and take advice, from too many teachers: Kell, Langenus, Rusianoff, etc.. Too many cooks spoil the broth. He was better when he just played instinctively. Gary Player says the same thing about Tiger Woods: taking advice from too many people ruined his golf game.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-16 03:09
Benny's Glare at people who made mistakes or didn't hear the chord changes was infamous. Artie had one of the sharpest tongues in the business and forgave even less than Benny. Neither had much good to say about the other.
Hammond may have been dictatorial and patronizing, but it's impossible to me to think that a single comment from him could have thrown Benny's playing off for the rest of his life.
Ken Shaw
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-12-16 03:51
Ruben,
Not sure I buy this line of reasoning. A man with an inferiority complex doesn't record and perform the standard repertoire as regularly and boldly as Benny did. He had plenty of confidence in his playing. Now I'm not saying there isn't SOMETHING to what you're driving at, but I just don't see Benny as some Bruckner type figure, always looking for legitimacy and fearful of his own inadequacy.
We DO know that Benny was obsessed with the clarinet and clarinetistry, to such a degree that it puzzled and annoyed Artie Shaw. In his autobiography from 1938 ('The Kingdom of Swing'), Benny suggested that the best thing a player could do was listen to every great clarinetist they could, and take something from each one. He took seemingly endless pleasure in practicing and honing his skills--and I believe these personality traits lead him to study with Kell, Russianoff, et al. I don't think he was looking for legitimacy from them, but to get yet another dimension to his playing.
I never met Shaw, and didn't know him, but I did know Leon Russianoff and we spoke about his teaching Benny--never did he suggest that Benny was nervous or anything less than supremely confident, and their relationship certainly didn't seem like master and disciple so much as clarinet buddies--at least from how he described it to me.
As for Artie's level of study, he professed to have been entirely self taught on clarinet and saxophone. Not sure if that's true, but it might be. He also claimed not to have any klezmer in his background...but I think listening to solos like the ending of 'Dr. Livingstone, I Presume' suggest otherwise. and Artie did like to pull peoples' legs...
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: as9934
Date: 2016-12-16 08:54
I asked a similar question of my clarinet professor the other day: My question was why that "Benny Goodman tone" has fallen out of vogue recently? I have listened to several recordings of the Copland Concerto and to me not one matches Goodman's tone and emotion including recording I have heard by Martin Frost, Sabine Meyer and Eddie Daniels. Perhaps this is just me being drawn into the Selmer large bore sound (if I am thinking correctly he was playing on a Selmer Centered Tone when he made the original recording) I'm not sure. Do you guys have any ideas?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-16 10:57
What I meant was that Hammond had a lot less influence and power than he fancied he had. He was a know-it-all. I shouldn't think his attitude and opinion had much influence on Benny or Duke Ellington. As for Benny, I was told that he never suffered the pangs of stage-fright before playing jazz, but did before a Classical music concert. "Inferiority- complex" is probably too strong a word. Let's just say that he was slightly apprehensive about playing Classical. Yet he loved doing it, otherwise it wouldn't have played such a big part in his musical life and he wouldn't have commissioned all those great works.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-16 14:13
Dear AS,
I agree with you about the Copland Concerto: nobody plays it quite like Goodman. I have always heard that Benny used a Selmer Centered Tone for jazz; a Buffet for Classical music. Ironically, very often his tone sounds fuller and rounder when playing a jazz ballad than it did when he played Beethoven or Brahms. Maybe he should have used his Centered Tone for everything. The last person at the Selmer company that knew him here in Paris died a few months ago: Jean Selmer. I wish I had asked him some questions about Benny. The Selmer Centered Tone was sometimes used by symphony players. If I remember correctly, the principal clarinetist of the Boston Symphony played one.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-16 17:56
The entire Boston Symphony Orchestra played Selmers from the '50s through to the '70s from what I understand.
Gino Cioffi was the principal at that time and I think he played Balanced Tones instead of CTs with the No.6 (19 keys 7 rings) keywork configuration. I have a set of Series 9* clarinets that were specially made for him in 1967 with consecutive serial numbers (A V2xx1 and Bb V2xx2) and the barrels, top joints and bells marked A and Bb, but he stuck to the large bore Selmers and sold this set to one of his pupils in the Tanglewood Youth Orchestra in 1968 who then played them until around 1978.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-12-16 18:01
For a while (circa 1950s to early 60s) the clarinet section in the Boston Symphony--Gino Cioffi, Pasquale Cardillo, Manuel Valerieo used Selmer instruments (Cioffi's was a especially tweaked by Selmer for him), and Mazzeo used his own Mazzeo Selmer clarinet, probably with a similar bore. Most of them at that time also played crystal mouthpieces.
Post Edited (2016-12-16 18:09)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-12-16 18:08
When I was studying with Eric Simon in NY in the late 50s he told me this story about Benny Goodman. Benny was living in LA and flew in once a month for lessons with Simon to "learn" the style of the Mozart Concerto. After having made several trips he later recorded it and sent Simon a copy with a thank you note. Simon told me with a smile on his face that Goodman played the recording the same way he did the first time he played it at his first lesson. :-) By the way, I took up the clarinet because of Goodman, I loved his "swing" clarinet playing but found his classical playing lacking for sure.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-16 20:51
Chris - I was at a Cioffi masterclass in 1958 and saw his (then-new) Selmers. They were marked "Centered Tone" and had full-Boehm keywork without the low Eb. He read a letter from Selmer saying "The Temperament has been adjusted to your specifications."
His solo playing on, I think, these clarinets was wonderful in, for example, the Tchaikovsky Symphony #5 under Monteux. However, his Brahms Sonata #2 recording and others from the same time had some really painful intonation flaws. Sherman Friedland has told the story of his last days in Boston, though I can't find it just now on his site. He wrote that a note went up on a (physical) bulletin board that Cioffi would no longer play under Leinsdorf because he refused to have his clarinets adjusted to play in tune. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=92173&t=92156.
Cioffi played on a crystal mouthpiece "given to me by my poor, dead father."
seabreeze - I've seen a photo of Mazzeo playing on a crystal bass mouthpiece, but I don't think that Cardillo or Valerio played on crystal. Sherman Friedland wrote that Cardillo played on a Selmer model A mouthpiece, which was extremely short and close. At the Clarinet Congress at Oberlin in (as I recall 1980), Mazzeo definitely played on a black hard rubber mouthpiece on his Bb http://collections.nmmusd.org/Clarinets/Mazzeo/Mazzeocollection.html.
Finally, Benny made some embarrassingly bad classical recordings (e.g., the Nielsen Concerto and the Arnold Concerto #2). However, I think his Mozart recordings with the Boston players can stand with anybody's https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Concert-Clarinet-Orchestra-Quintet/dp/B003YI3D04/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481906632&sr=8-1&keywords=goodman+mozart.
Ken Shaw
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-12-16 21:56
Ken,
You are correct in observing that Valerio played that close-faced hard rubber Selmer A. I did see Cioffi and Mazzeo for sure using crystals in the early 60s, Cardillo probably not. By 1980, times had changed and crystals were out.
Cioffi played several Selmers; as you say, definitely that Center Tone model, but later others that Selmer tailored to his taste.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-17 00:23
Dear Ken, I do recall, vaguely, that Benny's Nielsen recording was rather disastrous. How do you explain that? Did it come too late in life, when he was in declining health? Did he have no particular affinity with this rather quirky work? I also agree that his Mozart recording (Munch conducting? That's the version I know) is right up there with the best of them. It may not be what people would do now, but then again, what people do now won't sound right to listeners in 30 years time.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-17 00:29
The first set of Selmers I bought were a BT Bb and CT A - both with the N.6 keywork (19 keys, 7 rings - not full Boehms as they were built to low E). The set of Series 9*s I have also have the same N.6 keywork as they were built for Gino Cioffi. They both had steeply upward angled LH F/C keys (when viewed side on) which I straightened out, so not sure if that was done either by Selmer to fit his hands better or was done for his pupil's benefit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-12-17 16:14
I recall reading an interview with Benny some years later where he said that he was not prepared to play the Nielsen at the time, but the opportunity and date came up and he went forward with it.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-12-18 00:24
Dear Ed,
That sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation to Benny's not being up to playing the Nielsen Concerto: he hadn't sufficiently practiced it. On the other hand, he practiced Bartok's "Contrasts" for months and months; in hotel rooms when he was on the road with his band. Bartok himself was worried about how anybody could play the clarinet part. Demanding martinet though he was, Bartok was delighted with Benny's performance. In the great Joseph Szigeti's own words-the violinist who permiered the work: "If it can be played on the clarinet, Benny can play it." What a remarkable achievement for somebody with limited formal training and who was from a background that was the poorest of the poor. To complete this "thread" or topic: we should all cherish the memory of Benny Goodman. So many of us took up the instrument because we heard him, or because our fathers or grandfathers did.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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