 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-11 02:00
Someone called this morning at 6:30 AM all excited and asked me why people charge so much for mouthpieces? I donated one to the military band and then they ordered some at cost.
Good question...The material costs about $40 tops, with labor, shipping and the stamping. So why would anyone pay $300 and up? It surely won't get you into that major symphony orchestra. Same with ligatures. I play on a $5 altered ligature. I added a piece of a shoe lace to it, to warm up the sound slightly. I've been a sub a few times in major orchestras with a shoe lace and my own $40 mouthpiece.
So why do we pay all of this money for something that costs so little? Example - $18,000 to $29,000 for a set of clarinets and lately the Yamaha's are getting great reviews for less than $5000 for a set.
As I've said before the clarinets are just wood and metal and the mouthpieces are just rubber.
Are the "Magical Hands," that work on these designs really worth it or are we being brainwashed?
As I look around at what the major symphony players are playing on I vote for being brainwashed.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-12-11 20:08
I think MPs can be a lot like microphones. You have $100 Mexican made dynamic microphones and $10,000 German made vintage condenser microphones. In a blind shoot-out, either one might be selected for the task at hand. Depends on the application and acoustics.
Microphones are no longer expensive to build (unless a lot of elective and expensive "touch labor" is used) and even the measured performance in a laboratory has little relation to price.
So, sometimes it's a vintage Neumann M-50 for 10 grand, or a Shure SM-57 for 100 bucks. It's all what works for the situation.
Personally, I might pay $1000 for a MP if it was just what I wanted for the moment, but with the underlying fear of finding something better for $100 next week ...
Tom
Post Edited (2016-12-11 20:09)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-12-12 00:17
It's just what we personally value and set a price at (and how good the marketing is). For example, look at any string instrument price, look at some flute prices, and look at clarinet prices. Clarinets are dirt cheap.
I have always believed and continue to believe that while Backun products are good, his marketing department is PHENOMINAL!
FWIW, I firmly believe that if a good mouthpiece maker today put prices too LOW, they'd sell a lot less than trying to keep it around their competition. For example, with today's market and what people are willing to pay, a $100 "custom" mouthpiece will inevitably be compared (without actually trying it) by a potential consumer to a $100 mass produced mouthpiece and the result in their brain would be, "Well, they probably don't put as much effort into their mouthpieces as much as _____ whose custom mouthpieces cost $275". But that same person lists it as $240, they will then put themselves unknowingly in a tier with the $275 maker, and will be considered more seriously.
At least that's what I think.
I've seen it before with other products. Think "hdmi cables". Lots of marketing to transfer the same digital signal whether it be a $5 cable or a $50 cable. The information won't change during transmission, but people who want "the best" are really saying, "I will spend no less than _____ on this product to ensure I'm in a higher tier" and they end up with the same 1080p signal on their tv that I do, but mine was $45 cheaper.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2016-12-12 00:32
Equipment aside, let's not forget that there are many people out there for whom money is no object. Ten or twenty thousand dollars is pin money to them, marketing not withstanding.
I know one, for example, who bought a set of Wurlitzers for his daughter, who had been playing for about three months at that point. There's another in a local community band who bought a MoBa with gold keys. He plays in the third clarinet section, and last I knew, still had to carry a fingering chart around with him.
Then there are "name" players who get lots and lots of freebies.
Price is sometimes no object at all.
B.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-12-12 01:18
Business's have other expenses besides materials. And the makers should be able to make a comfortable living, save for retirement etc. I wouldn't buy a $300 mouthpiece, but my screwdrivers probably cost $50 each and I have pliers that are more expensive. If I supported myself playing clarinet, $300 would not be out of the question
Steve Ocone
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2016-12-12 03:07
Well don't you sell your own mouthpieces? Why do you charge 179 for your mouthpieces ?
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-12-12 04:17
Like B. said, I think the problem is that are people who will pay whatever someone charges, just because they can. It's not simply that they have money to throw away, it's that people have lost all common sense about the value of things.
If I had any money (I don't), but if I did, I wouldn't mind paying $200 for a mouthpiece that was great because I value the craftsmanship and knowledge that goes into it. I don't have any idea how long it takes to make one, but $400 seems like getting taken advantage of. I suppose if some guy is awesome, and he's got more orders than he can ever possibly fill, he might as well charge whatever he wants.
The ligature thing is another matter. I don't know how the people selling mass produced ligatures that cost a couple dollars to produce, at most, can live with themselves when they sell truck loads of them for $60 a piece.
I really think that people's views about these things are twisted. They won't pay what some things are worth, because they can get a cheap imitation, or it's not popular, and they don't understand or value the craftsmanship - and then they will pay 10 times what something else is worth because it's trendy.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-12 04:52
locke9342 - Well don't you sell your own mouthpieces? Why do you charge 179 for your mouthpieces ?
GREAT Question - Here's your answer -
They are over 90 percent handmade, takes 5 hours sometimes to make each one, but I'm making a 3 cavity mold and they will be selling for about $100 or less in a few months. I had to save up for the $25,000 for each cavity of the mold. ($75,000) I'm really trying to give a great product at a fair price. Maybe they will be only $60. Depends on the new diamond dust, facing machine, and the packaging. I'm trying my best. Will you pay $60 for a great mouthpiece or $500 for a great mouthpiece?
Diamond dust is very expensive to use for accurate machine facings. Plus designing the facing machine, then building it costs a pretty penny! More than some houses, so $179 for a HANDMADE mouthpiece is probably one of the the lowest costs in the WORLD. All of them come with free trials, so you never have to pay a penny unless you like them! Order one and see if you like it! If free! If you are a student they are $150. If you can't afford it I give them away for free. Ask some of the people that play on them! I just gave one away for free 2 weeks ago. to someone in Hong Kong on this very site. My goal is to -
MAKE MUSIC FUN!
I'm the good guy here!
But this wasn't my question. Lets get back to my question! Thanks!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-12-12 05:30)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-12 05:50
Alexi makes a strong point. At this years ClarinetFest in August I had a few minutes to walk around and leave my booth with my trusted partner.
Yamaha was sadly right next to Backun. Not a single player was at the Yamaha booth. Backun was giving out pizza, the works to attract people. It sounded like a train ramming into a crystal store. Everyone were playing on the Backuns! $29,000 horn and not a single player was at Yamaha!
I was lucky and in a quiet area. I sold out of 60 mouthpieces and 300 plus boxes of reeds in 2 days, because people could hear themselves play. I also put personal facings if asked. Downstairs I wouldn't have had any chance of selling a thing, because of the noise level.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-12-12 05:51)
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2016-12-12 05:57
I'm glad to hear there may be a potential competitor in the under 100 market. I just wanted to make clear that I didn't mean to offend you or come off as accusatory; I was genuinely curious.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-12-12 06:31
An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance. It saddens me that Yamaha does not get more attention. They might take their bat and ball and go home. Not that Backun is not really good stuff for some ... but I don't think it has magical properties. (maybe it does, I've not played the top shelve clarinets)
I heard that many years ago Charles Bay brought out a Playboy centerfold model for a trade show. He read in the interview that she played clarinet, so he hired her to help him sell his MPs and accessories.
Bob, good luck on your new MP. Wow! I hoped that hard tooling of molds would be substantially cheaper nowadays! Sounds like you are committed! I gotta get around to trying one ... Sounds like you don't need free nachos, shoe shines and pony rides to sell you stuff.
Tom
Post Edited (2016-12-12 06:32)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-12-16 07:15
I thought this was an interesting topic and needs to be explored a bit more.
Why do hand-crafted mouthpieces cost what they do?
Here are some of the expenses involved in running a business where you hand-craft mouthpieces, sell them to customers, and account for the financial results. I came up with these after 10 minutes of thinking. I can probably come up with many more.
Here, however, is a quick breakdown of the costs involved.
1. The cost of the actual material. Depending on whether you make your own blanks, or order them from a vendor, this is your largest single cost.
2. There is also a loss when you have discrepant material, in other words, a blank that cannot become a viable mouthpiece. In the vast majority of cases this cost must just be absorbed. Not every blank can become a mouthpiece that someone buys.
3. There is a cost of incoming shipping from the vendor/supplier. This can be hundreds of dollars per year..
4. If ordering internationally, there can be costs involved in customs and taxes.
We all agree that time is money. Where do you charge your time for:
5. The hours spent actually working on the mouthpieces.
6. Time spent communicating with your vendors. Ordering, paying, etc.
7. Time spent with customers trying out mouthpieces in person (this can take many hours, and there is no direct compensation for this time)
8. Time spent processing incoming mail/internet orders. Including invoicing, recording payments, packaging orders for mailing, trips to the post office and Fedex.
9. Time spent processing returns and refunds.
10. Time spent analyzing monthly results and creating reports.
11. Time spent preparing and paying monthly sales tax reports.
12. Time spent in preparing and reporting financial data for state and federal income tax. If you use an accountant, there is an additional cost.
13. Time spent in answering e-mails or telephone calls from prospective customers.
There are various costs that are incurred in setting up and running any business:
13. The cost of computer, internet, modems, routers, etc.
14. The cost of business software, such as Quickbooks.
15. The cost of a business phone.
16. The cost of printer paper and ink. (Every order has a printed invoice)
17. The cost of general office supplies (pens, pencils, tape, paper clips, etc)
18. The cost of tools and materials (I spend a small fortune on sandpaper)
19. The cost of shipping supplies (boxes, tape, stamps, etc.)
20. The cost of website development, maintenance, and hosting.
21. The cost of the actual workshop/office itself.
22. For the mouthpiece maker, there is the cost of acquiring and maintaining a whole fleet of instruments necessary for testing the product.
23. Also, if you do trade shows, such as ClarinetFest, there are the exhibitor fees, and the cost of travel and meals. This can easily run up over a thousand dollars.
If actually running a business, it is hard to see how any of these costs can be avoided. All of these costs must be absorbed in the cost of the mouthpiece, as that is the source of all the funding. So, you can see that there are many other costs than just the basic material cost.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Hand Crafted mouthpieces
New Buffet Clarinets and Bass Clarinets
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-16 10:14
Bravo Walter! I was truly hoping that a very high caliber, independent, mouthpiece craftsman would "step up to the plate" and educate us as to all (or at least mostly all) of the non-compensated hidden costs incorporated in the manufacturing of a customized clarinet mouthpiece.
If you think of any more, please do inform us.
Congrats on your high sales volume!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-12-16 12:59
Walter's list is more or less the same for any business that makes products. To simplify, the price is based on expenses and charging philosophy.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-12-16 16:23
Clarnibass is right. It's pretty simple. Cost of goods sold, cost of doing business, profit. Bingo.
All I know is I LOVE my Grabner Virtuoso on bass [Uebel Emperior]. Would I like to have paid $29.95? Sure! Was it worth [to me] the $325 actual cost? Absolutely! It's the best mouthpiece I have [total of 5]. As we all know, mouthpieces are very personal. The beauty is there are good mouthpieces out there in all price ranges.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-12-16 18:22
Yes, Bravo to Walter Grabner!
Cheap is cheap!
I have and use several of Walter's mouthpieces, and the quality cannot be beat! Worth every penny. As a professional woodwind person, the mouthpiece is probably the costliest expense, after the instrument itself. Why intentionally try to find corner-cutting mouthpieces? If absolutely need-be - Grabner & Fobes alike offer student models that start with a less expensive blank, but still receive the attention of a master craftsman.
In my clarinet cases are Grabner, Fobes and Smith. All high quality, crafted by true artisans that have gained my absolute trust.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-12-16 18:28
The simple asnwer is because they can. To many people, especially in America, still think the more a product is the better it must be. With that said, If I was trying out mouthpieces, say 10-12 different makes and models and I thought the one that cose $500 was the best one for me, giving me the best tone, intonation and comfort, I'd buy it in a minute. BUT, I bet that would be an exception not the rule. There are so many really fine mouthpiece being manufactured at more reasonable cost. My suggestion has always been, try before you buy and try as many as possible. There's a mouthpiece with your name on it someplace, you just have to find it. I always told my students that once we found the best make and model for them they should order at least three of those and pick the best of the three because all mouthpieces play a little different no matter what. No two play exactly alike.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2016-12-16 20:52
All I know is after many phone calls, emails, and trying many mouthpieces from Brad Behn, the price ($750 and a life time of free adjustments) was worth every penny.
My demands from Brad were high. I had just gone through Bell's Palsy (twice) and I wanted a more open mouthpiece that I could use a softer reed and still have a full, round, pinging sound. He achieved it! My intonation has never been better and my colleagues claim I've never sounded better. I'm a fan of the rod rubber products (love, love, love his new barrel/bell). I've had similar experiences with Clark Fobes and he no doubt makes an equally amazing product(s).
If my peers achieve the same with a $50 Vandoren, good for them. I got disenchanted with brand decades ago and sought assistance from 'boutique' makers to help me.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-16 21:00
clarnibass wrote: "Walter's list is more or less the same for any business that makes products. To simplify, the price is based on expenses and charging philosophy."
tucker worte: "Clarnibass is right. It's pretty simple. Cost of goods sold, cost of doing business, profit. Bingo."
Both of the above statements may very well be true, however, with all due respect, they appear to be rather extreme oversimplifications to me because very detailed specifics are very important to me. I'm glad Walter detailed what he did because, IMHO, there are many, many people out there "who don't know" all of the hidden, significant, time stealing, non-compensated variables in running a one man business. And, time lost, again IMHO, is loss of income which needs to be added into the equation.
Ed Palanker wrote: "The simple answer is because they can." I'm going to go very delicate on that statement because I find it so devoid of innumerable, intricate, and unpredictable factors as to boggle my mind. Ed, with all due respect, I have run an ultra small, one man business. I'm not aware that you have. I can speak from experience. I'm not sure how many on this BB can state that. If you find what I have written insulting or demeaning in any way, I apologize.
Here's a few more items I would like to add to Walter's list:
1) Being a sole proprietor, he probably pays more for individual and possibly family health insurance.
2) No sick leave. I realize I'm purely guessing, but if any completely independent, sole business person doesn't work...well...they don't make any products for future income. Plus, orders may go backlogged, emails may not be answered, personalized customer attention may go lacking, etc.
3) No paid vacation time. This one, to me, is so involved that I'm going to leave it alone and allow others to figure out how that affects the sole proprietor.
4) If Walter is paying into the Social Security system, that's 15% of his income. If he's paying into a 401K, that too is income that cannot be used to pay currently due bills. Any sole proprietor, IMO, needs to invest profit money wisely for their eventual retirement.
5) No true 8 hour day. In our country, this has become the norm when an individual works "for someone else". When a person is entirely on their own, the days can be much, much longer and may very well go uncompensated. I have painful, person experience in this area.
6) I think it's safe to say that everyone knows that buying molds in quantity saves money. By my count, Walter has 16 different clarinet mouthpiece models. To save facing/optimization time, I believe a mold needs to be very close to the actual specs of each model. Having so many different models may very well make buying molds in quantity discounts rather difficult resulting in paying more for each mold.
I enjoy intelligent discourse, however, I completely abhor arguing. I sense that there will be some who will totally disagree with what I have written and that's OK.
Just my 0.02 cents worth.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-16 21:36
I have several mouthpieces made by Kalmen Opperman. He was a genius at making tiny tweaks (often a swipe or two on 1000 grit sandpaper) that brought the tone into perfect focus. His mouthpieces often looked like hell, but they sure play great.
When I met him in around 1970, he charged $35 for a mouthpiece, which was much more than any commercial brand. At the end of his life, he charged $300, which was the going rate for handmade mouthpieces. What you got was a one-on-one session (often half an hour) that gave you a mouthpiece that was perfectly adjusted to your clarinet, reeds, embouchure and way of blowing. That skill made his mouthpieces worth the price.
I once spent an afternoon with Everett Matson, who touched up half a dozen mouthpieces, making tiny adjustments and handing the mouthpiece to me to try. I think almost all top players have these adjustments made. I'm by no means a top professional player, but I can easily tell the difference. If I can, anyone can.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-12-17 17:42
Dan Shusta, sorry, I didn't mean it to be taken that literal. That's an old saying, I'm sure you've heard it before. I'm not insulted, I hope you weren't.
It's interesting that Ken mentioned Everett Matson. I went to him many years ago to have my Selmer bass C* opened to be like my C**. After he measured them both he said he could close my C* to be like my C**. We had a good laugh, but he was right. Then he adjusted several other MPs for me. I spent about three hours with him talking and adjusting and he even bought a pizza for us to have dinner. He asked my for $10, I have him $25. Of course this was in the mid 60s.
The price of any item is worth as much as a person thinks it is. A watch, a car or a clarinet mouthpiece.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2016-12-17 17:52)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-12-17 19:09
Matson was a wonderful guy. He had a terrific understanding of how all of the mouthpiece elements (bore, baffle, facing, etc) all came together. He could really bring out the best in a mouthpiece to work for the player. He worked for players of all abilities and levels and usually only asked for a nominal fee for his expertise. Matson was also quite generous with his time and knowledge. He was a great influence on playing and mouthpieces.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-12-18 09:56
Dan, it sounds like what you really want to know is that you are getting a fair value as opposed to just a good mouthpiece (or anything). In that case, unfortunately, knowing all those details doesn't really tell you anything.
Some makers (of anything) have significantly higher expenses (than what Walter mentioned), much lower prices than any mouthpiece, but the products are over priced. Unless you know the maker's conscious or their actual expenses, time investment and amount they sell, you can't truly know if their price is fair according to your own standards.
I avoid some products for various reasons, but for many other products it is impossible or unrealistic to have anything but hope. You are likely to never know those details from a mouthpiece maker (unless they are your friend).
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-12-18 19:00
It also must be stated that some business people undercharge for their services. They do not properly consider all of there costs and the amount of time spent in running the business.I'm sometimes guilty of this. This is especially true of some home-based repair businesses.
I have to remember that if absolutely nobody thinks I'm expensive then I'm probably not charging enough. "If too many people say "That all?" when I give them the bill then I'm REALLY not charging enough. There will always be a range of people - some who don't understand the value of your service and some that do.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-18 20:28
I believe a lot of very useful information has been revealed in many of the responses to the O.P. Let me throw out a wild card here...just as beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder, monetary value is also individually determined.
Some player's requirements might be easily satisfied with a $100 machined, mass produced, mouthpiece while another player who is more technically advanced (fast passage wise), has special embouchure involved problems, or is highly perceptive of a certain sound that they wish to achieve may only be satisfied with a mouthpiece costing $250 to $800.
"Try before you buy" has been mentioned so many times on this BB. This technique, I believe, basically refers to mass produced mouthpieces. To me and with all due respect, if one is to add up all of the charges for cleaning, postage (both ways), restocking fees, and for the monetary evaluation time involved (this last one could be all over the chart, i.e., how much is your time worth?), after evaluating a goodly number of mouthpieces, that $100 mpc could easily wind up having a total valued cost of $400 or more. Why not just go for a handmade mouthpiece produced by an experienced artisan in the first place who has an accepted, trusted, outstanding reputation and achieve the sound, articulation, intonation, etc., that you truly desire and get that coveted mouthpiece in a minimal amount of time?
Yes, I believe it is true that some are overcharging, and, as Steve pointed out, some are undercharging for various, personal reasons. I had a talk with my pharmacist not long ago, who was open enough to inform me that he loses money on me every time because of the type of Medicare insurance I have. Obviously, I didn't feel good hearing that because I felt that I was, somehow, taking advantage of him.
IMHO, because all players have different playing requirements, the "one size shoe" mouthpiece cannot possibly satisfy all concerned. Also, I believe, our differing income levels influence how we feel about pricing. The higher the income, the more likely a higher priced mouthpiece seems "fair or reasonable". There are so many variables involved and each one affects the other in differing degrees.
Sometimes I think there are those of us who want 2016 quality and want to pay 1960's prices. A few have spoken about $35 mouthpieces from the distant past. What a shock it might be to them that the exact same quality today costs 10 times more due to inflation.
Just my 2 pennies worth.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-12-18 22:29
Dan Shusta wrote:
> "Try before you buy" has been mentioned so many times on this
> BB. This technique, I believe, basically refers to mass
> produced mouthpieces. To me and with all due respect, if one is
> to add up all of the charges for cleaning, postage (both ways),
> restocking fees, and for the monetary evaluation time involved
> (this last one could be all over the chart, i.e., how much is
> your time worth?), after evaluating a goodly number of
> mouthpieces, that $100 mpc could easily wind up having a total
> valued cost of $400 or more. Why not just go for a handmade
> mouthpiece produced by an experienced artisan in the first
> place who has an accepted, trusted, outstanding reputation and
> achieve the sound, articulation, intonation, etc., that you
> truly desire and get that coveted mouthpiece in a minimal
> amount of time?
>
I don't disagree with much that what you wrote in the rest of this post. But I think you overstate this argument. To begin with, if you buy 2 or 3 mouthpieces to evaluate from the same vendor (so the total cost of the order meets a specific minimum), there are some (maybe all - I don't deal with them all) who will ship for free. Return shipping within the U.S. can be done with USPS flat rate boxes that cost a little over $6. Restocking fees are not universal - you have to look at an individual vendor's return policy, but the ones I've dealt with don't charge a fee if you buy something from the initial shipment. Cleaning at the buyer's end should be minimal - in any case the vendor is going to sterilize returns at his end.
The time you spend evaluating several mouthpieces is well-spent if you end up with one you like. In general, the process should be very quick at first, as you eliminate the least satisfactory ones. Once you're down to a couple, you'll probably use them for a couple of ordinary practice sessions - time you'd spend anyway.
On the other side of the coin, buying from an established, well-reputed craftsman isn't a one-shot process, either. I've sent mouthpieces back to several excellent mouthpiece finishers in exchange for different ones, often of exactly the same model. Their mouthpieces are necessarily unique items - no two will be really identical and this is more true the more hand work is involved. The first one or two I get from a custom maker may be perfect - for someone else. I have good, personally satisfactory mouthpieces from several custom makers that I have used happily, but they weren't necessarily the first ones I was sent from any of the craftsmen involved.
Karl
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-18 23:25
As usual, Karl, you brought out some excellent points which have edified me greatly. I always enjoy reading your responses.
Let me tell you of an experience which I had just this last week. I ordered then refused a mouthpiece from Weiner Music. I called them and told them I had to cancel before the mouthpiece arrived due to finding out afterward that I was going to have oral surgery done very, very soon. During the call, I was told "no problem", we won't have to charge you for cleaning.
Well, to make a long story short, they charged my credit card $89.00 for one mouthpiece and gave me a refund of $75.65. So, I lost $13.35 and I never even opened the package!
Unhappy? You bet I am! Angry would be a better descriptive word! However, I'm trying very hard to look upon it as a lesson well learned. Hopefully, others have not experienced what I just went through.
So, IMHO, choosing the right vendor for multiple mouthpiece tryouts is very import.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-12-19 02:03
Dan Shusta wrote:
> So, IMHO, choosing the right vendor for multiple mouthpiece
> tryouts is very import.
Absolutely! Agreed 100%
Although, I must say, I'm surprised Weiner did that. I wonder if you pursued it if they'd refund the rest.
Karl
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-12-19 16:52
Hi All,
I would like to share some sage advice from a cousin of mine who is a retired professor from a very fine engineering school. One of his specialties was product design (BTW, he was the inventor of the Good News Razor and the Reach Toothbrush) and he had several graduate classes that he taught in this area.
I asked him once about product pricing and he said it was pretty straightforward. He told his students to use ratios of ~1,4,7. One represented the cost of the materials and the manufacturing, four is the cost that the builder should use as a wholesale price, and seven is the retail price that should be charged. So, if the value of 1 was $30, $120 is the wholesale price, and $210 is retail.
Indeed, Walter's analysis is right on about all the extra costs incurred. However, where to place each cost he cited is a little hard to see without some thought since many would be those incurred by the wholesaler and some by the retailer.
By all means this an analytical approach one would expect from an engineer. However, it certainly shines a light on the subject and it is better that just guessing.
HRL
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-19 21:41
I just spoke to Weiner Music (I believe it was Sharon). I was told that because my call to them was not recorded in their computer, when they saw "refused" with no computer information as to why, they automatically deducted 15% as a restocking fee. She said she would look into what she could do for me.
On a personal note, I wish I could have recorded everything because from my point of view, I was spoken to in a very cold manner which I did not appreciate. I remember some of you saying you've have good experiences with Weiner in the past, however, I won't be dealing with them in the future. Period.
Moral of this event: Get the "NAME and DATE" of the person you speak to. I usually do, however, I felt so confident as to what I was told that I failed to do so.
Hank, I don't know how "dated" that pricing formula is, but it still seems to be fairly accurate in 2016.
Now, FWIW:
I did some research on current "high end" selling prices and here is what I found (in alphabetical order):
Backun $295/Moba
Bay $375/Artiste Bb
Behn $290/Legere'd Zinner; $290/Sono; $780/Epic
Fobes $340/10K Blue Model (other models were lower priced)
Hawkins $330/New Model "G" (other models were lower priced)
Grabner $310/Nirtuoso (new) (other models were lower priced)
Lomax $300/Numerous models (all the same price)
Pyne $449/Bel Canto, BcJx, BE; $389/Signature
Smith $300 (approx) His website has been in the "updated stage" for
many, many months. (To the best of my knowledge)
I believe there are others about whom I simply don't know.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-12-20 18:51
One way I helped my students choose a mouthpiece when I was teaching at Peabody and Towson University in order to keep their costs down as well as give them a wide choice was as follows. Every time I went to NY with the BSO I'd go to Weiners, or Vandoren or some other store to try mouthpieces.. Anytime I'd find one I liked I'd buy it to stock, that's how I actually found my Morgan clarinet MP I've been using for over 20 years now. I'd also try many anytime I'd go to a clarient festival, that's where I found my McClune bass clarinet mouthpece I've been using for some time .I'd also have mouthpieces that were recommend to me shipped for me for trial, I absorbed the costs for my students. I would stock about 20 clarinet mouthpieces and about 6 bass clarinet mouthpieces for my students to try. ( I'd deduct the cost as a legitimate expense ). When a student and I would agree that they should look for a change I'd give them several at a time to take home and try until they found what they liked the best, often there would be more than one, so we would work together deciding which was the best for them. Once we agreed on what worked the best I would have them order at least three from a mail order store, Weiners, or Muncies or anywhere else that stocked them and we would pick the best of the lot and have my original returned to me to re-stock. ( that's why all my students sounded so good :-) )
I know most teachers won't do this due to the time an cost element. Many teachers also insist or encourage their students to use the model mouthpiece they use or something similar. I schooled in NY in the late 50s early 60s with Russianoff who was famous for his "bag of mouthpieces" and his availability to trying many new ones in his "Banner Music Store" as they came available . So I changed MPs now and then in my search for "The perfect one", which I actually found about 4-5 times in my playing career for clarinet. I believe only twice on bass clarinet.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-12-20 22:14
Ed -
Fabulous dedication to your students! How marvelous.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-12-22 03:54
One more high end clarinet mouthpiece maker that could be added to the list is Ramon Wodkowsi. (His peices are available in the US through Bill King at Ann Arbor Clarinet Connection in Michigan). Most of them sell for $350.00.
Post Edited (2016-12-22 04:05)
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The Clarinet Pages
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