 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-11-17 11:12
Thank you for your replies to my last post. I made "tone hole levelers". It wasn't ideal, but it worked.
I'm re-padding the big keys on my R-13. None of my pads fit, they were too thick. I ended up using pads that fit entirely inside the key cups. I did this last time because I ordered wrong. I wanted to fix it this time - but I still don't have the right ones. I considered ordering some, but I'm not sure what fits. If I had the cash I would go and buy a bunch just to try, but that's not an option.
I am confused...
I don't understand why they sell pads the way they do because the measured dimensions are not at all what you want to know. Assuming you are using traditional "stepped" or "beveled" bladder pads:
1. They tell you the thickness of the whole pad, but what you really need to know is the thickness of the felt.
2. You don't always want a thin cardboard with a thin felt, and vice versa. Sometimes you need a thin felt, but have very deep pad cups to fill - and sometimes you need a thicker felt, but only have thin pad cups. You can fill with glue, but after you add so much it becomes more difficult.
3. They tell you the diameter of the outside of the felt part, but what you really need to know is the diameter of the cardboard part to fit the inside of the key cup. Subtraction/addition isn't ideal, especially with the larger pads.
4. They want you to measure for fit, but there's really no way to know without actually trying it - or having a lot of experience knowing what will fit.
It's SOOOOO much easier when you have the right pad.
Does anyone else think this is weird? Is the lesson that you just have to have a lot on hand? Is this why people like synthetics and leather pads that fit entirely inside the cups?
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-17 12:00
I don't use skin pads for a good reason - not only are they delicate, but most are usually difficult to seat as they're not easy to flatten out if they're distorted and also you're at the mercy of the diameter of the cardboard backing so often have to use a slightly undersized pad to fit in clarinets with smaller pad cups and thin sets like Buffets.
So this is the reason why I prefer to use cork and leather pads - cork pads can be made to any diameter and thickness as demanded by the instrument and leather pads will sit inside the pad cup and can be adjusted by the amount of shellac is used to float them on.
Provided pad cup and tonehole alignment is good to excellent, cork and leather pads will be fine as they should have adequate coverage of the tonehole crown. Cork pads have nice sharp corners to them so they can be fitted very close to the tonehole rims without the risk of leaking. Stepped pads will give more leeway in that respect, but you have to be certain key and especially pad cup alignment is as good as possible when using any pads that are completely fitted inside the pad cups.
Another way to get round that issue is do what oboe makers do and fit thin leather pads the same diameter as the pad cups but installed onto (but not in) the pad cup that's completely filled with shellac.
Companies like Pisoni in Italy will supply different thicknesses of pads for the trade and private repairers. Buffet to my knowledge are the only maker of clarinets that use a much thinner pads than the others, but it's the thickness of the felt that's the critical thing.
http://www.musiccenter.it/sotto-categorie-prod.asp?IDCat=129&CatDes=Clarinetto&SottoCat=129
Clarinet pads are usually around 3mm thick in total (card and felt with skin pads or the entire thickness of leather pads) but you need 2.5mm thick skin pads for Buffets. The most critical pad on Buffets is the RH F#/C# key (lower joint) as a pad that's too thick won't close at the front and that's one of the trickiest pads to seat due to the very short cup arm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-11-17 16:38
I use Ferrees white leather Bass clarinet B33 pads. For the lower joint I use 11.5MM for the 2 smaller pad cups which are the ring keys and bananna key, 14.5MM for the G# key and 16.5MM for the other large pad cups which is the correct size.
Post Edited (2016-11-17 16:39)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-11-17 17:15
I often use skin pads on those keys. The pads are sized as 16.5mm for R13 clarinets. I use only one brand which is particularly flat out to the edge. Unfortunately they are only available for sale to professional shops. You seem to be overseas so I'm not sure how easy it would be to send you some. Before I found them I use to check for flatness and discard about 50% of the pads.
I don't care for leather or cork pads on those particular keys, but I will use synthetic. The size for Valentino Masters would be 16mm. I don't use Valentino Greenbacks on the open pads as they rarely stay flat during installation.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-11-17 19:10
Valentino Masters as well as regular Valentinos seem to loose their effectivness after a short period of time and It appears that repairmen are using them because they are easier to seat initially which is not good for the player in the long run.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-11-17 20:15
I mean that they are prone to leaking because the shape of the pad begins to change.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-11-18 07:24
Thanks, I sent Pisoni an email, and I will look at the Ferree's.
Steven, I live in Florida - I don't know where the computer got Asia from. I used to live in Ellicott City, and later in N. VA.
I tried Greenbacks on my student Yamaha. I didn't like them. They were hard (or so I thought) to level, and they felt weird. I did think about using synthetics on the register and LH G#/C# key on student horns.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-18 08:40
>> I mean that they are prone to leaking because the shape of the pad begins to change. <<
After a lot of experience with several different models of synthetic pads... if they start leaking then they weren't installed properly to begin with. At least the ones I've tried don't distort unevenly to cause leaks in the way you described.
There is one model of Valentino pads that is very soft, I'm not sure what the model is (it's not Greenback and not Masters) or if they make it anymore, that is common to not remain level during installation. What happens is it seems like it's sealing because it's soft but it's distorted and springs back.
IME with Greenback, Masters and Omni pads, what you describe doesn't happen as long they are installed properly (i.e. they don't distort during installation as long as not too much heat is used). Even though they can be pretty firm, the spring back problem can still happen, so it's important to make sure they don't seal just because they were pressed against the tone hole to create a temporary seat, especially for the open keys. The same is true for most other pads too to some degree.
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Author: Shaun L
Date: 2016-11-18 08:53
Obligatory first post to this forum.
Just wanted to second what Clarnibass said. As long as valentinos are installed and floated properly, they should be incredibly stable over time. At the repair shop I work at we only use Valentinos for the clarinets that are about to go out as rent to owns because the work put into them lasts so much longer than bladder pads.
The only way I could see the problem you're describing happening is if they weren't installed correctly and the repair tech depended on artificially creating a seat in the pads to make them seal rather than floating them into place and creating a very light seal on the open keys.
Backun Protege Coco/Gold
Selmer S10A
D'Addario X0
MoBa barrel
Buffet 1193 C
Vandoren B44
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-18 08:56
Re the original question, you are right, it is a bit annoying but there are some good reasons for it. Stepped pads (or any pad really) can vary a lot. Some are a fraction under size, some over size or exact, some have a square step and some are gradual (or in between), the difference between the back and felt diameters, etc.
So basically different models of stepped pads might need a different diameter to fit the same key cup. This is vary also depending on the key and the person installing them.
The pads that are available in standard thickness, proportion between back and felt, step graduation, etc. fit most instruments. Some suppliers stock more than one option. Generally thinner felt also means slightly thinner back. If you want to know the thickness of the felt and back you can contact the maker or supplier, most would tell you.
A thinner back can almost always be compensated for by more glue, especially when you can have the step supported by the tone hole rim which is ideal but not always possible or practical.
As far as diameter, some suppliers will list what diameter in comparison with key cup size you should order for their pads. If not contact them and see if they know. There isn't a real standard because the pads are variable and keys too (e.g. 9.15mm vs. 8.85mm), even for the same model made in different years, etc.
Instrument makers and suppliers order hundred of thousands if not millions of pads, so the pad makers can make anything they order. It is not a big deal for them to have a bunch made to try.
There is simply not enough market in DIY repairers or even all repairers for a suppliers to stock any back to felt proportion as an option.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-18 09:07
Which lower keys? There are 2 different sizes for the R13's.
Use Valentinos because they've been around for so long.
Call them at JJ Smith (800) 659 -6073
Buy by packages of 12
16.5 fits the bigest cups.
The other cups could be 15.5 and or 16. The year of the horn and if it's an A or a Bb does matter in MY choices of pads to use, meaning the different models offered by the company. You probably want a 16 and 16.5, but surely tell the tech it's for an R13. The Selmers are thicker and some cups go to 17.
Use a cork register key pad.
Ask for advice.
GREAT people fast delivery, good prices, get the very best pads they offer, because some of the not so good pads can bubble up after a few years.
Let them know you are not a pro and ask for a tech for advice. You seem pretty uncomfortable.
When putting the pads on take off all of the keys and do one key at a time and make sure you get at least a 45 second seal before moving to the next pad. They sell rubber plugs to cover the open holes while working on the each pad, so you are sure of no leaks. Buy a set of these maybe. Your life will be so much easier. In the old days I tapered down wine bottle cork to seal the open holes. These rubber plugs are fast and so easy to use. Best of luck..
B
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-11-18 09:15
I know one member of a major symphony orchestra who is a first clarinetist and that person likes cork on the upper and kid leather on the lower and I know another member of the same orchestra who likes all Valentino black masters on the entire clarinet because of the silent way they operate. The so called loud noise that cork makes bothers that particular player.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-18 13:23
As far as noise goes, I had someone concerned with the hardness and noise of cork pads try my clarinet which is nearly all cork padded (apart from the largest pad cups) whilst sat right beside me in the orchestra pit, I asked them to do an upper register F#-G trill. I couldn't hear any pad noise - just the F#-G trill. But if they just did the trill without playing, only then was the pad noise evident.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2016-11-18 14:47)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-11-18 13:54
Great test and excellent point Chris. Thanks again for another great contribution to this outstanding forum.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-11-18 17:48
I agree that the way most synthetic pads are installed they do not seal for long. The the long B doesn't play easily with a light touch. I almost always change them out. I do not put an impression in clarinet pads. It has to play perfectly to start and I use very stable pads.
Matthew, send me your address and I'll send you some skin pads that should work on your clarinet.
steveo@annandsteves.com
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2016-11-18 17:49)
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