 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-11-11 21:21
Wondering if any of the long time bass players remember the chronology of Selmer bass model numbers.
Earlier in the week at rehearsal, we were in a conversation about what model numbers came before the current Selmer offerings: models 65 and 67.
Models 33 and 35 before that? What preceded those? Anyone remember?
Can't seem to find a model number history anywhere.
Thanks!!!
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Author: DougR
Date: 2016-11-11 23:03
I'll be interested to hear responses to this as well. I have a Series 9 bass, and have never heard it referred to as anything other than that.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-11-11 23:25
37 and 35 (low C and Eb, respectively)
33 and 30 (ditto)
31 (the first low C model)
Series 9
I'm pretty sure that's correct but I'm not sure what the low Eb partner for the 31 was called.
Post Edited (2016-11-11 23:35)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-11-12 03:28
I have
23 and 25
33 and 35
65 and 67
I'm not sure where the Series 9 fits in
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-12 03:46
The Series 9 basses were (according to a 1971 Selmer catalogue):
30 - to low Eb
32 - to low Eb with LH Ab/Eb lever
33 - to low C
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Greg H
Date: 2016-11-12 03:54
Having owned 5 Selmer basses so far, here is what I remember:
Model 30 (no articulated G# or LH Ab lever)
Model 32 (with the above keys)
Model 33 (with the above and low C)
In France, Model 32 = Model 23
Model 33 = Model 25
then:
In France, Model 23-ll and Model 25-ll ( this is the low C model with only 2 RH thumb keys for low D and C) (in production around 1983)
Not sure of the model # in the US of these.
then:
Model 35 (low Eb)
Model 37 (low C) (back to 3 RH thumb keys)
then:
Model 65 and 67
Not sure about series 9 if there is a model number.
Maybe Chris P can comment-
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-11-12 03:58
Chris,
I have a Series 9 bass. It is a Model 32 but it also has an articulated C#/G# in addition to the LH Ab/Eb. The serial # in T73xx.
This is an amazing instrument. Big sound and terrific intonation except for Low E (a tad flat) but the B a 12th above is right on. Also, in three years of playing in a couple of outstanding concert bands performing grade 5 and 6 music, I have never needed anything lower than Eb.
HRL
PS A recent upgrade I made was to a Grabner CX BB 90. Wow. Powerful yet very refined when needed.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-12 04:12
I've got a piece of Selmer literature with the 23/II (low Eb) and 25/II (low C) which was sent to me in the '90s not long after the Signature Bb and A were launched. These were the models before the Privilege bass.
Not sure if these numbers are for the Privilege basses or for the different angled crooks which is in their French price catalogue from 2005 - it says:
CLARINETTES BASSES NOUVEAU
Privilège
Avec un bocal (deux modèles disponibles : 32 ou 53),
un bec "C85", en étui "Light".
19 clés, au mib grave - 6 922,00 €
22 clés, à l'ut grave - 7 983,00 €
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2016-11-12 04:16)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-11-12 04:14
Well, I was sorta right :p
Greg, the 37 (I play one) only has 2 thumb keys (Db, C).
Hank, interesting regarding the tuning of your 32. My 37 is spot on for the long B but close to 30 cents flat on the long E. Really the only fly in the ointment. Well, I wouldn't mind having another low Eb key!
Post Edited (2016-11-12 07:34)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-12 08:48
>> In France, Model 23-ll and Model 25-ll ( this is the low C model with only 2 RH thumb keys for low D and C) (in production around 1983) <<
According to Selmer, the 23II and 25II are the same as the 35 and 37, just depends on where they were marketed, and came out around 1994.
AFAIK the 37 has always had three thumb keys, so a model with two would have been 25 and not 25II... though I'm not sure if some of those earlier hones had three too... don't remember...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-12 08:54
The 25/II has the flat plastic plate set into the body for the right thumb and only two thumb keys going by the photo in their literature.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-12 09:02
So I guess they changed from two to three somewhere around the 37/25II run? Or they had both versions at different points? All 37/25II low C bass clarinets I've seen had three thumb keys and all Selmer basses with two keys I've seen were a different older model.
I know the 37 came out no later than the beginning of 1995 (because I know of new ones bought then) and according to Selmer the 25II came out in 1994, so my conclusion this is the same model. Unless they came out with the 25II in 1994 and less than a year later changed to the 37?
Post Edited (2016-11-12 09:04)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-11-12 09:27
My 37 was manufactured in December 1998. It has a plastic thumb plate and two thumb keys. Mike Lowenstern has two 37s, one from 1996 and one from 1999. They have the same arrangement.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-11-12 16:35
Does anyone else have a Model 32 Series 9 like mine? The serial# is T76xx so if I use the available charts the manufacturing would be about mid-1960s.
HRL
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-12 16:57
I've seen about ten Selmer 37/25II bass clarinets. Is it my imagination (or bad memory) that they all had three right thumb keys...?
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2016-11-12 17:25
Hi,
clarnibass wrote:
> I've seen about ten Selmer 37/25II bass clarinets. Is it my
> imagination (or bad memory) that they all had three right thumb
> keys...?
The selmer 37/25II bass clarinet that I recently saw had two thumb keys.
It looked the same as this one (scroll down and look at the 6th photo; you can see the thumb keys):
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?142646-Selmer-Model-37-Low-C-Bass-Clarinet
However, Selmer sometimes made changes without changing the model number. Also, as others have mentioned, the model numbers were different in different parts of the world.
The models that I have seen are:
(1) 1970's - early 1980's model: three thumb keys without rollers (D,C#,C)
(2) 1980's - mid 1990's model: two thumb keys without rollers (D,C)
(3) mid 1990's - approx 2005: two thumb keys with rollers (C#,C)
(4) Latest model: three thumb keys with rollers (Eb,C#,C)
I think the 37/25II is (3) in the above sequence
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-12 17:57
The 25/II has by far one of the shortest touchpieces and therefore the shortest leverage for the RH pinky low D key. That makes it very heavy, plus the fact the RH low D touch is split up into three separate parts instead of being a single key (as on the post-1999 Buffet Prestige)
The previous model to low C (eg. D series) has by far the worst key layout of any bass known to mankind. It's based on the late 1800s/early 1900s Buffets, but was done to standardise their layout on all the low C instruments which include the basset clarinet and basset horn. Selmer were the only maker at that point in time that switched to that layout when the models either side it were more conventional in their layout.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-11-12 18:05
Chris P.,
So, which is the "best" of the layouts/models? Since I do not have a low C bass, it is hard for me to imagine exactly how the low D, Db, and C are configured (thumb touches versus extra levers for LH or RH little fingers).
HRL
Post Edited (2016-11-12 21:58)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-11-13 01:17
Hi Hank and CEC! You have great bass clarinets. It seems likely that a flat low E could easily be raised in pitch without affecting the middle B by undercutting the venting tone hole below. I've done undercutting on a lot of soprano clarinets with good results for raising only the low register note. Perhaps an expert clarinet tuner could do the work, if one can be found. Good luck!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-13 02:02
The Privilege has the best keywork of the more recent Selmers as it has a more Buffet-like layout and simplicity, then besides that you're looking at Series 9.
Bypass the instruments made in between (eg. C or D series) unless you have either a gorilla-like RH pinky or aren't fussed by over complicated mechanics and an unusual keywork layout for the RH pinky.
I haven't yet seen a CT-era low C bass - only those built to low E or low Eb, so it would be interesting to see how their low C keywork is laid out.
I recently serviced a 25/II bass and I put that along with Selmer SA80II sopranos and baris and SIII saxes as instruments I would rather not have to work on as they're far more complicated than they need to be.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-13 11:16
>> (3) mid 1990's - approx 2005: two thumb keys with rollers (C#,C)
>> I think the 37/25II is (3) in the above sequence
So... did any 37 models have three right thumb keys or is my memory even worse than I thought even after seeing (i.e. playing, checking, etc.) so many of those...?
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Author: DougR
Date: 2016-11-13 21:53
Hank, my series 9 is R967, one letter and 3 digits. It lacks the LH Ab/Eb lever, and the articulated C#/G#, making it a Model 30 per Chris P (thanks, Chris!).
Low e and Eb are significantly flat on mine, and the 3rd-space C sharp sounds sharp enough that I need to vent it with the RH low E key to bring it down to pitch, which muffles it a bit.
Otherwise the horn's a blast. One time I was at Jimmy Yan's shop right after Jim Ognibene (Metropolitan Opera bassist) was leaving with his repaired horn. Jimmy saw that I had a Series 9, and lifted the top section out of the case, gave me a big smile, and said emphatically "Nice instrument!" Clearly he was talking about the horn, but he was also telling me, 'You have something special here."
Post Edited (2016-11-13 22:26)
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-11-13 22:17
In a conversation about bass clarinets in general, Tom Ridenour said on a low Eb horn, it's quite common for the low E to be very flat. Said it's somewhat the nature of the beast. When he was developing his 925e, he had a choice of making either the upper B or the low E the flat note. Since the B is used more, he opted for having the low E the bad guy. The low E on my 925e is indeed flat but I don't have that issue with the Uebel. I'm not sure if low C horns innately remedy that problem. Maybe some of the tech guys on here know.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-14 02:00
Bb/A soprano clarinets also have the inherent flat low E and F in favour of an in tune upper B and C - it's a compromise makers have to make as a sharp upper B and C would be a nightmare and near on impossible to correct if the low E and F were brought up to pitch as they stand. Hence the reason why the low E/F correction key that's fitted to top level Oehler system clarinets is becoming more common on some top level Boehm system clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-11-14 04:51
DougR and Phil,
Thanks for those responses. I think with Chris P, Clarnibass, CEC, and with informed others contributing, we have a much better understanding of Selmer's lineage in bass names.
Phil, your comment about Tom R's clarinet design answer to the intonation at the Low E/Clarion B issue makes very good sense. DougR, you would be surprised how often I use the two extra keys. This is a special instrument. If by some long shot, I need a low C from time to time, I can borrow an instrument from Eric and Meridian or get a 925c. No need to spend more money.
The ergonomics of the Model 30 are superb. When I get my backup 925e out, it take some time to get the hand position correct.
I hope GBK and Mark will make this thread a keeper.
HRL
PS
PS Eric and I have made some neat little key mods like very thin teflon tubing on levers instead of cork and recently I made a cork key riser for the G#Ab which works great.
Post Edited (2016-11-15 01:05)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-14 09:55
>> The Privilege has the best keywork of the more recent Selmers as it has a more Buffet-like layout and simplicity, then besides that you're looking at Series 9. <<
The Privilege is definitely better in many ways than any previous models, but it still has some design issues. It's been a few months since I saw one but at the top of my head I remember the bridge linkage has a "reversed logic" length of the arms.
>> and SIII saxes <<
The SIII soprano is the Palpatine of the sax world...
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Author: DougR
Date: 2016-11-14 10:20
Hank, I had to ask my repair guy to put a little touch piece disc on the LH ring-finger key, but solder it on so it was approx. 1/8 inch off center to the left of the key stack line--making it feel more like a mk. IV key setup. The old positioning was giving me repetitive use pain in the L hand when using the lever keys a lot. It's much more comfortable for me, and doesn't affect the reach to the LH levers too bad. (If I were made of money I'd have gotten the levers extended upward to bring them closer to the LH pinky, but I manage fine.)
Mine came without a floor peg or peg receiver, so I had that added too. At the time I was trying out the series 9, I was also trying a low-c pre-series 9 model--beautiful instrument, silver plated keys, but the 9 played so much better! (The other horn was subsequently bought by Bill Cosby--yeah, THAT Bill Cosby.)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-11-14 18:10
DougR,
I can see where that mod would be a nice little addition. Since I have the LH Ab/Eb, adding a small touch piece slightly off center as you suggest would then ergonomically position my LH pinky right over that key.
I have a Mark VI alto and tenor and the key arrangement on those saxes is the very best. Adding your touch piece makes sense.
The cork key riser like I did on the Ab/G# is really great. You can't bend the up since the pad would then open too much. But adding the riser worked very. Just cork, a razor blade, some sandpaper, a little contact cement, all topped off with some clear nail polish (the then is slippery enough).
HRL
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-11-14 18:41
"Author: tucker (---.pn.at.cox.net - (Cox Communications) Pensacola, FL United States)
Date: 2016-11-13 22:17
In a conversation about bass clarinets in general, Tom Ridenour said on a low Eb horn, it's quite common for the low E to be very flat. Said it's somewhat the nature of the beast. When he was developing his 925e, he had a choice of making either the upper B or the low E the flat note. Since the B is used more, he opted for having the low E the bad guy. The low E on my 925e is indeed flat but I don't have that issue with the Uebel. I'm not sure if low C horns innately remedy that problem. Maybe some of the tech guys on here know."
The trade off is a flat low E or a sharp upper B. They both use the same tone hole so if you relocate it to fix the flat low E, the B gets too sharp.
In theory, all the extended low notes on a low C bass could be built to be in tune since they are not usually played with the octave key (though I have done it to play some odd written tremolos easier).
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-11-14 19:43
Mojo sums it up nicely just above. And having myself built several low-C extensions, I can verify that he is correct that one can build a low-C bass with all the extended low notes in tune, as I have done that.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-11-15 06:16
I spoke to both Steve Fox and Wolfgang Lohff a few months ago about correcting the extraordinarily flat low E on my bass. Steve recommended a correction key, but Wolfgang recommended an interesting alternative: moving the tonehole while simultaneously raising the height of its chimney. He says this would leave the long B in tune while raising the long E. Intriguing, but I can't imagine how expensive it would be. Well, on second thought, I think I can
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2016-11-15 08:02
Ackk, duplicate, my error attaching photo.
Post Edited (2016-11-15 08:07)
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2016-11-15 08:05
Sorry, didn't expect this to post. Still trying to get the picture attached.
Post Edited (2016-11-15 08:09)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2016-11-15 11:30
smokindok wrote:
> Steve Fox's correction key does the trick on my Selmer bass.
> His work is excellent!
>
> John
John,
Could you post a picture of the "business end" of the key (the part with the pad cup)?
Patrick
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2016-11-17 02:54
smokindok wrote:
> Additional pictures for you, Patrick.
Thanks, John. The pictures give a good idea of how it works.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2016-11-19 06:07
So back to Selmer bass lineage topic, I had come across 2 Selmer basses, both down to Low C. One was a Privilege 67, and the other is an older model I am not exactly sure which model it was. It had 2 RH thumb keys with rollers, as well as having the older neck angle design which is even flatter that current flatter angle Selmer offers. The owner said he bought it some time around the 1990s.
I wonder when did Selmer stop making the extremely flat, saxophone-ish angle that was seen on some of their older models?
Josh
Post Edited (2016-11-19 06:10)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-11-19 08:08
Joshua,
I think the horn with two thumb keys was a 37. It started production in the mid 90s. It also had an option for open- and closed-angle necks. My 37 has a neck angle that corresponds with the current open design.
The Other Chris
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-19 08:51
Re the neck angle, from what I've seen the current "special order" flat angle neck of the Privilege is the same as the standard 35/37 angle neck. The necks are interchangeable.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2016-12-05 09:23
Some additional information: that older Selmer I've seen has the current trill-key design on the 37 and 67 Privilege horns. Looking at Selmer 37 horn in the link ebonite shared earlier, it looked pretty much identical to the horn I came across. So I guess you're right, Chris.
There is also an old Selmer Low C bass on sale at Howarth in London that got me quite intrigued, and I was told that it is a V series bass and the guys at Howarth estimate that it was made in the late 60s, and the late Thea King was one of its previous owners. What model number will a V series correspond to? And are they really made around the late 1960s?
Josh
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-05 13:54
A V series will be a Series 9 era bass, so should be a nice instrument. I have a set of Series 9* Bb/A clarinets from 1967 that were made with consecutive serial numbers for Gino Cioffi.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-12-05 19:32
Hi Joshua,
Yes, "V" series basses were manufactured from 1967 to 1969. Chris P is correct; it should be a nice instrument, indeed.
The Other Chris.
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Author: BJ in NO
Date: 2016-12-15 20:34
Since a few of you mentioned the Selmer series 9 bass clarinet, I have some questions regarding the model. What is the general opinion of the series 9 bass? I ask because I just purchased one (last week) from a thrift store, of all places, and the horn plays beautifully! I had been playing on a very old LeBlanc bass for many years. I find the sound of the Selmer fuller, but not as deep or dark as the LeBlanc. Now, I have been seriously looking into purchasing a Ridenour low C bass for the past 6-8 months. Then, I got this Selmer and was wondering. Do I sell the Selmer and/or LeBlanc and get the Ridenour, OR do I send the Selmer to Stephen Fox in Canada and have him add the low C extension to it. The costs, once factoring in shipping and a new case, would be about $200 difference in favor of the conversion. My repair tech has looked over the Selmer and said it is in really great shape for a 50-year old instrument. I look forward to your responses.
Music by CARNAVAL
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-15 20:40
I think you're best keeping the Selmer as it's a far better built instrument compared to a Chinese bass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2016-12-16 04:15
I totally agree with what Chris P said. Definitely keep the Selmer. The Series 9 basses are highly regarded as one of the finest horns of their kind.
And if you really need the Low C extension, do send it to Stephen Fox for him to do the job. He's a fine craftsman and very knowledgable on clarinet making.
Josh
Post Edited (2016-12-16 04:25)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-12-16 05:40
BJ,
I am going in a different direction. I have a Series 9 Model 32 that is superb. The crux of the situation for me is that after several years of some heavy-duty wind ensemble work, I have never had to go below Eb. I do plan to get my Selmer re-padded sometime as it has many of the originals and the action needs a little tuning up.
My plan is to pick up a Ridenour Low C bass (I have a 925e Ridenour as my backup now which I will sell) when I find that I need a low C on a regular basis. So I ask, do you really need a low C bass?
I think you will find that your Series 9 (I hope is a Model 32 with the articulated C#/G# and the alternate Ab/Eb) is a terrific instrument and a pleasure to play. Mine has outstanding intonation (I'm a stickler).
Please send me an email if you want to discuss this more.
HRL
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