 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-10-29 21:09
It's not the great Chedevilles that people want. It is the second generation, which still sell a lot, but it's very much different.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-30 13:58
Dear Bob, What was so special about Chedeville mouthpieces? What was their secret and can it be reproduced?
Thank you.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-10-30 14:50
Ruben, hit me up with an email to savagesax@aol.com. There is a very long history to your question and it will take up too much space on this clarinet board. Also, a lot of people will probably disagree with some of the actual "Facts," behind the history and misleading results. Here is an example. Some people have said and sent me mouthpieces from sources such as from the 1960's Bundy clarinet mouthpiece, saying that it is a Chedeville, wanting me to reface them. It may be from the new models, but surely it's not even close to the old Cheds.
You've asked a great question and I won't attempt to answer it on this BBoard, which I value a lot!
A lot of the old Chedeville's were never marked. However I can spot them right away and I'm always looking for them at Flea Markets, places like that. I got an unmarked one as a trade at a pawnshop. It was all faded, teeth marks on it, and gave the pawnshop a new $10 plastic mouthpiece. I found another one for $5 at this old place called Teds Music, behind Peabody Conservatory. There are plenty of them still around.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-10-30 18:30
Bob,
Would you agree that there are a few things that can be said about the old Cheds that might clarify what they were, such as:
The Cheds most players value were made by Henri Chedeville at his shop in Philadelphia mostly during the 1920s and 1930s.
They were mostly made from blanks crafted in Paris by Charles Chedeville.
Henri Cheds, then, were mostly an American interest. Back in France most players were using something else, such as early generation Selmers, Vandorens, and maybe Charles Chedeville. French players do not seem to have known that much about the Philadelpha Ched or made much of an effort to try them. So, we've got an American eagle flying on a French blank. Enter the "French/American" sound.
American players value the particular rubber blend and "vintage" in the Charles Ched blanks that Henri used. But, Henri sculpted these blanks into mouthpieces that were something even more special than the valued blanks would produce in other craftsmen's hands, or so we like to think. (But then what about Alexander Robert?)
Of course, some of today's American mouthpiece makers have tried to recreate the 1920-1930s rubber. Among them are Chris Hill, Brad Behn, and Omar Henderson.
Exactly what are they trying to acheive?
1) Henri Cheds were known for easy projection in American concert halls.
You blow into them and a lot of sound pops out and travels to the top gallery and back wall.
2) They blow with ordinary effort. No superresistance or need to blow your brains out. Some people call this air-to-sound efficiency. You get a nice sonic bang for your buck (airstream in motion).
3) The sound they produce is a find BLEND of qualities. Some brightness and sparkle, some darkness and depth. They are not bright and raspy or dull and muddled.
4) The sound has a natural shape to it. It is not the shape of a sharp cutting jaggged knife or the shape of a formless sticky blob. It has definite contours and outlines-balance and symmetry. It doesn't spread or get murky. It seems to have a center, a middle, and the nicely traced lines of a edge. It is sort of like a Platonic solid or some other regular geometric figure translated into sound.
5) It is concentrated. Close up it may seem small but from a distance it blossoms out.
6) It is very controllable and natural to voice. You do not have to tie your toungue and throat into knots to get it sound right. It is "self-centering," so you can put your efforts into playing the music and not always have to wonder "how does this thing sound?"
7) Even the dark corners of the sound have overtones. Like glints of reflection in dark obsidian glass. It is luminous; the sound rays seem to leap out like sparks from a sparkler--but gently. This give it the proverbial "ping" that some American players have looked for.
8) The Henri Ched story is, of course, part myth. As Ridenour and others like to remind us, if you have a drawer full of them, maybe one or two play as described above (in the hands, of course, of a good player).
9) Old H. Cheds appeal to crazy clarinetists who attempt to write descriptions like this.
Hope this spurs others on to speak, or at least gets a laugh or two.
Post Edited (2016-10-31 17:40)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-30 19:07
Dear Seabreeze, Not only did I not get a laugh from your "thread" (to use the barbaric word): I find your virtuoso prose and powers of description quite dazzling. Thank you!
I personally use a Firebird mouthpiece crafted by Mike Lomax and using an Omar Henderson blank. Some people have compared it to a Vandoren 5RV, but I think that it is far superior; richer, rounder and more complex in tone. I think they were attempting to reproduce the Chedeville qualities. Never having tried the latter, I don't know how close they got.
Here in France, Chedeville is totally unknown; I've never heard him mentioned. I remember years ago when Daniel Bonade and the oboist Marcel Tabuteau had come back to France to spend their last years, they were totally forgotten here. Not only had they zero influence here; few people had ever heard of them.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-10-30 19:31
Rueben,
Exactly, Bonade is also a sort of American eagle made from a French blank!
Back in the 1950s, I believe, American clarinetist David Weber interviewed some clarinetists in the Guarde Republican Band for the Clarinet magazine. Weber reported that none of the French players had even heard of Daniel Bonade. When Weber mentioned American players the French clarinetist he was interviewing "curled his lip," took up his clarinet and "began to play with a [deliberately] bad tone" in mockery. Weber found most of the Guarde Republican clarinetists were playing Vandoren mouthpieces, probably 2RVs. When he mentioned Louis Cahuzac, he got a spark of recognition and approval, but noted that already by that time double lip playing was considered old school in France. Cahuzac, by the way, played Vandoren Diamond Perfectas and maybe Selmers sometimes for most of his career. There is no evidence that he ever had any interest in Chedeville peices, certainly not American Henri Ched peices.
Everyone has their own favorite modern H. Ched copy. Don Montanaro (Philadelphia Orchestra, Curtis Institute) had his own Ched in mind when he helped design the Series 13 mouthpieces for Vandoren (especially the M13 and M15), and Chris Hill has an H. Chedeville model. The D'Addario Reserve mouthpiece is also Ched based. My personal favorite H. Ched copy/creative re-creation is the SMALL chamber EPIC model offered by Brad Behn. Of all the mouthpieces I own, that is the one I play the most. It has many of the characterics I tried to describe in my brief examination of the Old Ched Myth.
There are many players out there who know more about H. Cheds than I, and I wish they would jump into the discussion.
Post Edited (2016-10-31 03:38)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-10-31 02:36
All I can say is NO ONE has duplicated the Cheds. Sometimes not even close.
I haven't played on any of the above players mouthpieces. However, I have measured a few of them.
As far as the sound carrying, which I call that ping in the sound ,even with a perfect Chedeville or a Kaspar mouthpiece, the instrument makers have decided to go with larger bores, so this surely effects the ping issue and how the sound carries.
Until someone can match the 2 styles, meaning the mouthpieces and the instruments together, we won't see a Marcellus, Gennusa, or Wright, sound anytime soon. This bothers me a great deal.
The talent is there. People have it. Some people sound really good. But it's not there! It's not their faults either.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-31 12:10
Dear Bob, Don't Vandoren mouthpieces have a smaller bore than Americanhandcrafted mouthpieces? I haven't measured them, so it's just an impression. The rubber on Vandorens also seems to be harder. I might add that I don't play them and don't particularly like them.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-31 12:11
Dear Bob, Don't Vandoren mouthpieces have a smaller bore than Americanhandcrafted mouthpieces? I haven't measured them, so it's just an impression. The rubber on Vandorens also seems to be harder. I might add that I don't play them and don't particularly like them.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-31 12:11
Dear Bob, Don't Vandoren mouthpieces have a smaller bore than Americanhandcrafted mouthpieces? I haven't measured them, so it's just an impression. The rubber on Vandorens also seems to be harder. I might add that I don't play them and don't particularly like them.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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