 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-26 21:57
As an experiment, I put a Selmer 10S bell on my very thick-walled Selmer Recital clarinet. I find that it makes for better and swifter response and more resonance. Marchi and Mazzeo clarinets used thin-walled bells. This would be the opposite of Morrie Backun's very thick-walled, soft-wood bells. My temporary conclusion is that a fat barrel and a thin bell seem to make for a good marriage. I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-10-26 22:28
Thickness/external shape is mostly irrelevant. What's more important is the internal dimensions, which likely vary between the bells you mentioned.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-10-26 22:32
Of the instruments I've played, those from the 1950s have the thinner walled bells, with the thinnest being on my 1951 Fritz Wurlitzer R-Bs (also the largest of the bells on my clarinets). I also feel those older instruments give much more resonant and full sounds. It's certainly worth considering as a theory, as I've never liked the sound from instruments with denser, heavier bells.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-10-26 22:41
In my opinion you are correct. Also the hardness of the wood matters a great deal, or even the plastic barrels. I prefer the thinner walls for the reason that too dark can often be misleading. I've said this before that sounding dark in a studio is not the same as sounding dark in a hall, in which you may not be heard. So in this case dark is dead.
Stay with the 10S, check for intonation, have your fellow friends hear you in the back of a hall to check the projection. The Recital clarinet has an amazing sound but for orchestra playing I think the Signature was designed for that type of playing. But I am NOT a Selmer player, but I've played these horns and really like both models a lot. The Recital is much more heavier in weight so the sound shouldn't carry as far in a large orchestra, or perhaps I should say you have to work a lot harder. However in a quintet type of setting I feel it is an amazing horn and the 10s barrel you have may be the trick to being able to play it in a large concert hall.
Oh, the key work is amazing.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-10-26 22:45)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-10-26 23:41
The pre-war B&H 1010s had much thinner bells than the post war models and those older instruments had a much brighter, resonant sound.
Of course other changes were made to the instrument between those years as well but my impression is that the bells had quite an effect.
The modern "taste" for dark, dull sounds probably played into those changes as well.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-27 00:08
Bob: I think you've hit the nail on the head: thin-walled and very hard wood. -maybe harder than African blackwood. Thank you (and the other excellent responses). Maybe you should design a new bell. There exist many, many barrels, but not than many bells, and some of the bell makers are barking up the wrong tree.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-10-27 17:16
Sounds like there is a market for stainless steel bells. Thin and hard.
I'm with jdbassplayer.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-27 18:45
Dear Mojo: That's what I had in mind. I thought of brass, though. What is a bass clarinet bell made of?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-10-27 21:34
Usually brass or cupronickel. Actually I made a brass bell for my C clarinet. It made it sound.... like a clarinet.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-10-28 00:58
Yes, it would be a good idea to try one of Behn's new rubber bells on the Recital. Have you considered making an aluminum bell? Some aluminum barrels have an interesting sound. How about a thin wall (wooden) Buffet Elite bell on the Recital--a pairing of oppposites? That's something I would like to hear!
I agree that very thick walled bells tend to muffle and unfocus the sound.
What about a Mazzeo bell on the Selmer Recital? I have fond memories of listening to the first clarinetist in the San Antonio Symphony, Larry Metzner, during the mid-60s and remarking how clear and audible he sounded on his Mazzeo Selmer clarinet, even if I was listening from the top of the gallery. Nothing he played ever sounded muffled or buried under the other instruments.
Not sure about whether fat boy in the barrel is necessary, though. Is that your experience that fat boy barrel plus thin wall bell is better than just regular barrel plus thin wall bell.
Another possibility would be a thin wall barrel (Behn's new rubber barrel) with a matched thin wall bell. Which combo would be best???
Post Edited (2016-10-28 06:29)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-10-28 17:36
One could probably saw a bell off a vintage metal clarinet that is lamp material and have it fitted to work on a wood clarinet.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-28 17:50
Mojo: Good idea! Then we can see if this improves anything tone-wise. It will at least give us a rough idea. Thank you for the suggestion.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-10-28 18:10
Jdbassplayer wrote,
>Actually I made a brass bell for my C clarinet. It made it sound.... like a clarinet.
>
That reminds me of the time I did a "tasting session" with my husband, who plays the violin. I played the same few passages on various clarinets, giving each one a number instead of its name, while he stood with his back turned. I asked him what he thought of each instrument and asked him to rank them. When I revealed which clarinet was the vintage metal H. Bettoney "Silva-Bet," which he'd liked a lot, he said in a tone of surprise, "It sounds like a real clarinet!"
If you're registered to vote in the U.S.A., please do vote! Your vote matters!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2016-10-28 18:11)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-10-29 17:24
Blind testing can open your eyes.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2016-10-29 18:39
Platinum (or better iridium) are the densest materials. Here you are - so many market opportunities not only for new different types of hard rubber.
On another side - carbon fibre (or better nanotube) bell would be the thinnest and lighest.
Sawing off the bell of your typical metal clarinet would hardly help - they are shorter and accoustically match a wider bore.
I have hardly seen anyone disproving that clarinet is an aerophone and largely the inner shape of the bell (especially since it is the farthest from the vibrating reed) should matter, but there are many subttle opinions for a book or two...
Post Edited (2016-10-29 18:42)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-31 12:07
I see that the new Buffet Icon bell is 30% lighter than ordinary bells. This would tend to corroborate my theory than thin-walled barrels resonate better. I haven't tried one though. On the other hand, they don't apply my principle which claims that harder is also better: hard and thin.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2016-10-31 16:48
I played a metal clarinet. Ray Adams (Allentown Band principal ) Played a metal clarinet. Read Bonade, James Jeans, etc. Timbre is largely what you can do. Intonation largely interior dimensions.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-10-31 17:56
In my experience the thin walled/light bell is not always an improvement: it depends on the clarinet. I experimented a lot with Selmers (CT and Series 9). The freeblowing CT does indeed choke up with a heavy bell. However, a more constrained Series 9 played better with a heavier bell. Some clarinets need a more substantial bell that actually improves resonance and articulation.
In the end, optimal combinations of clarinets and bells can be found. And often the original bell was the best fit...
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-11-01 13:56
Dear Jeroen,
I take the point and think that you're right. At any rate, being thin-walled and light would hardly be enough to make the bell better. There are other parameters. As I said, a Selmer 10S bell on my Selmer Recital clarinet improves its swiftness of response. What I haven't yet done is try a (heavier) Recital bell on a 10S.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-11-01 17:08
I'm surprised that, given the scarcity of top-quality, sufficiently aged grenadilla, there's currently no professional-quality, new metal clarinet on the market. The idea that metal clarinets are all student-quality or suitable only for jazz is a relic from the days of the dinosaurs.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-11-01 17:33
To be done right, the metal clarinet would probably have to be fabricated by a flute maker. They have the trade secrets, machine data, and intuition of working in metal necessary for that kind of project. Think of a clarinet by Muramatsu, Dr. Zhao, or Lillian Burkart! They would be expensive though, starting at maybe $15,000. A good cheaper model might come from a shop like Azumi or Viento.
Best of all would be a collaboration between a master clarinet acoustician and a master metal flute maker.
Post Edited (2016-11-01 17:41)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-11-01 18:57
Lelia; more and more of the flautists I play with are turning to wooden flutes!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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