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Author: terry
Date: 2001-05-24 12:38
hi!
I would love to do the Schumann Fantasy Op 97 for my next recital.
(honked my way through Mozart Concerto K.622)
However, I got a Bb version that is in B Major (5 sharps!!!).
Request. Transcribed version for Bb in friendlier key, C Major would be nice ;-)
with appropriate piano accompaniment. Pointers to full name/publisher
of the sheet music, and who carries it would be appreciated.
thanks!
terry
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Author: terry
Date: 2001-05-24 12:40
sorry, corrected:
hi!
I would love to do the Schumann Fantasy Op 73 for my next recital.
(honked my way through Mozart Concerto K.622)
However, I got a Bb version that is in B Major (5 sharps!!!).
Request. Transcribed version for Bb in friendlier key, C Major would be nice ;-)
with appropriate piano accompaniment. Pointers to full name/publisher
of the sheet music, and who carries it would be appreciated.
thanks!
terry
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-05-24 13:29
How come you don't own an A clarinet if you're already doing recitels? Get one, it will make life a hell of a lot easier and is far more apropriate than playing on an instrument or a key that the composer didn't ask for.
Alphie
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-05-24 14:01
Interesting situation here. Which clarinet should be used for the Fantasy Pieces? Common wisdom calls for an A. But you know, it is actually easier to play most sections on the Bb. Forget about the key signature issue. Fingering wise, piece 1 and 2 can be managed quite nicely on the Bb. The Bb keeps the piece one half tone lower and eliminate some tricky register changes here and there. On the Bb, fluidity seems easier to achieve, most of the time.
The number 3, granted, is definitely easier on the A. If you use the Bb, then you have to slide many times (assuming of course that you do not have an extra Eb key on the left) in some fast passage toward the end.
That being said, these little mechanical problems pale in insignificance with the real issue for these pieces: rendering them beautifully, musically, aestetically.
They are *** very *** difficult pieces. They are of the romantic period. Music composed by romantic masters require an understanding of music, and an emotional control of one instruments, that require must work. With this kind of music, there is always the danger of playing them too bland, or too "mushy". the right balance must be found. This requires a subtle flexibility. Grand mastery indeed.
So, by the time you have really figured out these pieces, your little fingering problems will be long gone.
Unfortunately for these pieces, they have little technical challenges within. So, they tend to be played by intermediate students who are still struggling with basic interpretation issues. The whole point of the music is missed and has to be relearned later when musical maturity has progressed. Some people never really get back at these little jewels. I for one often wondered why we ask young clarinetists to play romantic music. Piano and string students spend years developping technique and musicality in an orderly fashion by focusing first on the baroque and classic masters. Playing romantic music come much later in their musical development. Maybe it is because our instrument is lacking true grand master work from periods with correct pedagogical content.
If you want to understand what I mean, listen to some recent recordings of these pieces by Grand Masters. The Paul Meyer's CD of Schumman pieces (Fantasy, Romances, and the incredible Fairy Tales arranged for clarinet and piano by Korody-Kreutzer) is a good example of Romantic music played superbly and delicately on the clarinet. A rare thing indeed. And what a great preparation for the real master pieces of this period: the two Brahms Sonatas (I am sure I will get here many posts by young people saying that these sonatas are easy...).
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-05-24 14:44
As last word, you mentioned that you "honked" your way through K622. I sincerely hope that this is just a way of speaking and not a reflexion of a more than casual approach to this music. We all play music at the edge of our personal envelop and make quite a few mistakes in the process. We play nonetheless hoping that a little bit of beauty is passed to the audience. When we play, there is the music, and there is the audience. We as performers are but humble servants trying our best to connect music and audience. During a recital, we never play for ourselves. Our little moment of glory comes after, once this connexion has been accomplished. We often fail with regrets, get back to work, practice until this strange dynamic between music and audience starts to appear. And then we really start learning our instruments.
However, if you did knowingly "honked your way" without respect for both music and audience, it might be cool in your own head, but it is not anywhere else. In this case, leave Schumann alone for now. You are not ready.
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Author: terry
Date: 2001-05-24 17:01
could you give a full reference? "Paul Meyer's CD of Schumman pieces" does
not show up on Amazon. thanks!@
terry
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-24 18:03
I think Roger Garrett's response that I read on the KlarinetList was correct. Some pieces are made for A Clarinet, others can be "shared". Good luck.
Best,
mw
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-05-24 18:14
mw
Can you be more specific. Which pieces could be shared? And why? I can't name any pieces where the composer has given an option as to use Bb- OR A-clarinet.
Alphie
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-05-24 19:13
I agree with Alphie. I cannot think of any pieces for clarinet and something else (typically, piano) where the composer produced two different scores to adapt to the wish of the clarinetist. After all, one must be sympathetic to the plight of pianists who hate relearning a piece in a new key to adapt to the whims of different instruments. Do not even think of asking strings, other winds, or whole orchestra for that matters to adapt.
Nevertherless, we can find here and there music that require the two instruments (for instance, Max Bruch's trio for piano, clarinet and viola takes advantage of A and Bb instruments during the piece).
Schumann intended his pieces to be played on the A. However, since they are often played by students, editors produced Bb versions because intermediate students do not always have an "A". The clarinetist is the one who adapts since the piano score remains the same. Nonwithstanding my comments on the Fantasy pieces and the Bb, try the Romances on the Bb and you will see why an A is "de rigeur" there. The Fairy Tales (originally an viola/piano piece known as Op. 113) were rearranged by Schumman (just before he got sick) for Piano, Viola and Bb Clarinet (Op 132). The concert key is just right for the Bb and nobody would think of trying these pieces on the "A". When I play the Fantasy Pieces, I start with Bb and finish with A.
Because of its popularity, the Mozart Concerto exists in two piano-reduction versions: One for Bb and one for A, with the piano adapting. On the Bb, the piece sounds a tad shrill; Pianists do not like playing this concerto in Bb anyway. Again, this is an editor's choice and the piece was composed by Mozart for a "A" instrument (we just do not know for sure what this instrument really looked and sounded like - but this is a story for another day).
The Jean francaix' concerto is in B. It is really impossible to play on the Bb. Since this piece is not that great, the amount of investment needed to render it properly might not be justified. This is why it is better kept for a later date in one's life where sheer technical abilities allow this piece to be prepared in no time at all (I cannot imagine living with this piece for one year...). Somebody, out there, ought to adapt the clarinet part for the "A" (maybe me one day), thus making this piece more accessible and of a technical difficulty more in line with its musical value.
There might be such other pieces out there where a little bit of Bb and A there would take away useless arbitrary technical issues.
Another interesting example of the potentiality provided by a pair of clarinets: Brahms' clarinet quintet. There is a section in the second movement that is fiendishly difficult on the A (all weird transitions across breaks ). Serious editors often add a couple of line of alternate Bb scoring to facilitate the passage (although the time available to switch is just too short). I have never seen this technique used in real-time. If you can play Brahms' quintet in public, you probably can master these little technical irritants in your sleep while focusing on real issues.
If you play jazz with a string-centric combo (guitars and pianos running the show), you play with a lot of sharps. Do not by shy, use your A! You would be surprised how versatile you become when you can switch between Bb and A to follow your strings companions wherever they want to go. Death to the obligatory Bb key (the overused common denominator for combos just about right for everybody)! Now, how many of you folks out there regularly improvise on your "A" in front of an audience? I am developping an interest in "Down East" fiddle music. Quite technical and ** extremely ** popular. This music (fiddle-centric) is full of sharps (most of it is in D). Do not be shy: go for the "A" and impress your fiddle friends.
Naturally, for solo clarinet pieces, nothing prevents a performer to deviate from the composer's intent, often with interesting results. Example: I recently heard Stravinsky's three pieces played as follows: A, Bb and C (you read right). The effect was quite exciting. When I play "Rhapsodie" by Osborne (admitedly, a basson piece in the first place), I play it on my A. It just sounds better: dark and deep.
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-05-24 19:45
A last post of the subject of Bb and A. We clarinetists simply do not have great baroque master pieces. An essential component of our musical education is left out, or superficially covered. The work of the great Baroque Composers (in particular, Bach, THE giant composer towering above everbody else) is only accessible to us through severe adaptations of both the clarinet part and its accompagnent. As we develop, we must put ourselves, at least once, through the rigor of learning a comprehensive Bach piece. But how!
Well, there is an instrument called the Oboe d'Amour in the key of "A". It is half-way between the oboe (in C) and the english horn (in F). This instrument was very popular then as a way for double-reeds to play with sharp-infested string-centric music (the reason for the invention of the "A" clarinet by the way). Additionally, it has a sound in the low register that is mesmerizing (the globular shape of the ball creates a tender tone color for a few long tube notes). So, there are tons of music for Oboe d'amour and something else that can be played as is on the "A" . I spent a bit of time on a Swiss Web site specializing on this instrument about one year ago . When I will run out of interesting genuine pieces on my "A", I have another source to look for, with a nice catalog of old and new pieces for the oboe d'amour (no, I do not recall the exact URL). I am starting to learn the Bach's Concerto for Oboe d'amour. Gosh, what a master piece to add to one's repertoire! How different this music is from what we usually learn from! I can feel new neural pathways being carved in my brain everytime I practice it.
The morale of all of that: As Alphie said: "Get an "A""!
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-05-24 20:26
I simply cannot resist. This the last post honest! Why did Mozart composed his great concerto (as well as his quintet) for the "A", so in Concert Key "A"? Here is what I discovered from my readings:
Two things to juxtapose:
1 - In Mozart time, each concert key was associated with a mood. Essentially, the more sharp the key had, the more energy the music was assumed to have. In his time, Concert Key "A" was extremely popular as lively key full of life and joy. Naturally, there is no scientific and/or physiological basis for this belief. But culturally, composers in the late 18th century believed in this and created music accordingly (creating a feedback loop so to speak, or a self-fullfilling prophecy).
2 - Also, in Mozart's days (and by and large still today), the "A" clarinet was assumed to be dark, melancholical, pastoral. Not at all an instrument associated with the feel of Concert Key "A".
Amongst many other firsts in K.622, the genious of Mozart was to combine the two (the energy of Concert A with the melancholy of the "A" clarinet) into something simple wonderful. Listen to the orchestra: its part is incredibly "gaillarde" and almost feel like the kind of music associated with a bunch of guys heading to a drinking hole. I can see horsemen galloping to town after a successful hunt. Then you put the "A" clarinet on top of this, bringing order and serenity to this rowdy bunch. It appears (based on research by music historians) that Mozart actually understood what he was doing in this department and used the Concert Key AND the "A" purposefully. This is also why, when played on the Bb (with an appropriate piano reduction), it feels too much: the Bb is too bright, too high, and destroys this sutble effect.
Ah Mozart!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-05-24 21:21
Terry -
I've never seen a version of the Schumann Fantasy Pieces transposed for Bb, but I'll bet Carl Fischer publishes one. Too bad the LP went out. Most turntables had a speed adjustment that would let you crank the Music Minus One record up half a step.
The first piece is transposed on the Bb as often as it is played on the A, to avoid the slur from F up to Db in the middle of a big crescendo, and also to be able to slur up from clarion to altissimo D instead of Eb. It's not too bad to transpose. It's slow enough that you can work around the little finger puzzles just by switching fingers.
The second and third pieces are a bit more difficult to transpose on Bb, but it can be done. Reginald Kell did it on his old Decca LP.
If you can cut the Schumann, it's time you got an A clarinet anyway :-).
Schumann's Three Romances for Oboe go wonderfully on A clarinet. I know the Carl Fischer edition includes an A clarinet part, and I think it has one for Bb also.
If you can find a singer, there are bunches of Bach cantata arias with gorgeous oboe d'amore obbligatos.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gary
Date: 2001-05-24 22:07
I find myself taking issue with a couple of things being said in this thread--I hope I'm simply misunderstanding certain things.
In response to Alphie: in a perfect world we would be able to have a Bb, A, Eb, and bass clarinet. Unfortunately these things cost a good deal of money. I don't necessarily think that a person that doesn't own an A clarinet should not be doing a recital--I did two recitals before I owned an A clarinet. For some people (no matter how dedicated to the craft of clarinet playing) it is very difficult to come up with the necessary money to buy an A clarinet. This was my situation. Also, I was fortunate enough to have a professional clarinetist fly across the country to pick my A clarinet out for me from about 30 A clarinet. Not many people have that resource available to them either. Truth be known, I didn't get my A clarinet until I was in grad school! Was that risky? YES!! But there was nothing else I could do about it.
Regarding the "honked" response from Mario: Ralph Vaughan Williams said, and I hope I'm not mis-quoting him, "good music is worth playing badly." Perhaps Terry's performance of the Mozart Concerto was not wonderful in her opinion, but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't have played it. If people only played things when they were absolutely perfect, then no one except Gil Shaham would ever perform anything! Again, calling upon personal experience: I prepared Debussy's Premiere Rhapsodie for my senior recital and the rehearsals were fairly well, however the performance was as if I had just learned how to play the clarinet. Now, if I had never attempted that piece, then I would not be as good a clarinetist as I am today. The personal disappointment from "honking" my way through that piece made me develop a new work ethic regarding clarinet practice. Yes, that was a hard lesson to learn, especially at such an important benchmark in one's education, but no one died because of it, and I didn't dishonor Debussy or perform any other sacrilege. Moreover, I have yet to go to a live performance that is completely free of mistakes.
Sorry to be so long-winded about this, but this is an open forum.
Good day, and happy clarineting,
-Gary
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Author: terry
Date: 2001-05-24 23:11
I wish to thank the 2 people who answered my question. Your help, understanding, tolerance, and ability to see the humor in the query is a shining beacon.
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Author: Rob
Date: 2001-05-25 00:03
Ken wrote:
"I've never seen a version of the Schumann Fantasy Pieces transposed for Bb, but I'll bet Carl Fischer publishes one."
I don't know if Carl Fischer has a Bb transcription for the Fantasy Pieces, but deep in the recesses of my file cabinet I have a copy (purchased by me in high school way back in the 70s) of a book called Masterworks for Clarinet and Piano, published by Schirmer's which contains transcriptions of the Fantasies for Bb and for A as well, along with some other interesting stuff, so it was published at one time. I don't know if this is still in print. I don't even know if Schirmer's is still in business.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-05-25 00:30
Dear terry!
I know I'm not one of the 2 that you're thanking, but what I actually mean is that you diserve an A clarinet if you are on a level of playing recitals occationally.
I know people sometimes accuse me of being too much of a "purist" in matters like this, but I'm just trying to take my work seriously. Since classical music is a re-producing art form we have a very big responsibility to be faithful to the score, that is actually the piece of art itself.
However, it doesn't turn into art until we have done our job and that's when we must have done our homework concerning knowlege about style and interpretation...etc...etc and get it into our blood stream.
If we don't follow the first instruction, to pick the right instrument, how can we be expected to be serious about the rest. I don't have to devellop this any further, you know what I mean and you're welcome to object to what I'm saying.
The price of an A-clarinet is similar to a top section of an oboe, a bassoon's bell or a head joint of a flute.
The reason for the double system in Brahms Quintet 2nd movement is that Mühlfeld insisted on playing that section on Bb for technical reasons.
(I have to admit that I usually play the beginning of the Eb part in Ravel's Daphnes et Cloë on D clarinet instead of Eb)
Alphie
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Author: Kim
Date: 2001-05-25 02:34
"Masterworks for Clarinet" has the Fantasy pieces published in both A and Bb. I'm sure if you looked on Sheetmusic Plus you would find it. I believe the publisher is Schirmer.
Good luck,
Kim
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-05-25 04:17
Alphie,
I guess I have some problems with classical music being a "reproducing" art form. Iguess if I believed that I would buy the CD of the performance I felt was the most faithful to the composer for each work, and never buy another of that work, and surely never attend a live performance.
By that thought, is it OK to play the Bach organ works on an electronic organ, or must one find a pipe organ? (Yes I prefer pipe organs!) What about Stowkowski's transcription of the Tocatta and Fugue for Orchestra (The one featured in Fantasia, I'm too tired to remember the key.) Should we even get into the electronic performances by W. Carlos? (Switched on Bach etc. Great alblum, recently re-released)
Do you enjoy the Handel Messiah with a 200 voice choir and symphony orchestra? While common today, that's not the way he performed it. Of course its impossible to do it the way he did exactly as he was prone to changing it each performance.
How about Gershwin? Do you prefer the dance band version of Rhapsody in Blue, or the large and more familiar orchestration by Grofe? (I enjoy both.)
To me music is dynamic, changing and growing in its context, touched by all of the artists who perform it over the years.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-05-25 04:32
>Ken Shaw wrote:
I've never seen a version of the Schumann Fantasy Pieces transposed for Bb,
I have an edition for Bb published by Peters, a German publisher. Its clarinet score is for Clarinet in B, but its piano score's clarinet part is for Clarinet in A in concert pitch.
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2001-05-25 06:39
What a great thread! I learned several things from it.
Thanks, Mario, for caring enough to share your fresh insights on so many musical matters. I had wrongly assumed that the oboe d'amore was pitched in G or F.
Given your reverence for the Brahms sonatas, let me suggest a topic for a future posting if you ever feel so inclined: How did it happen that the printed editions and the accepted way of phrasing the opening bars of the Brahms F minor sonata (notes are slurred UP in pitch rather than slurred downward) is directly opposed to the musical sense of the passage, and opposite the way that so much of Brahms' music is phrased?
Several people beat me to the punch in mentioning that there is an old edition of the Schumann Fantasy Pieces transposed for the B flat clarinet with piano. The editor of these pieces was a New York area clarinetist named Eric Simon. He wrote a nice article for the 1950s Clarinet magazine on interpreting the Schumann pieces. If this edition is OOP, you can probably find a copy for sale on ebay. Like some of the posters above, I think that the publisher was G. Schirmer, although my older Schirmer edition of the the Schumann Fantasy Pieces has solo parts for A clarinet and for Violin, but not for B flat clarinet.
You can also find the first of the Fantasy Pieces transposed for B flat clarinet with piano in the old Rubank Concert and Contest solo book which was used by so many of us back in the 1950s.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-05-25 07:47
Copies of Brahams sonatas Wiener uhrtext (original scores) are available in Japan from Zenon sheet music publisher. ( It would be better to use orignal scores if they are availble. )
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-05-25 12:47
To springboard on Gary's post, please, reread my post. I am not taking exception to a performance with mistakes in them (quite the opposite). I am wondering about a state of mind.
In my Country, honking is for Canada Geese (nicked-name "honkers" by the way); they are messy, noisy, agressive, impudent. The mental picture of Mozart being "honked to" by a bunch of Canada Geese is hard to stomach. Anyway...
With respect to Brahms, yes indeed the first few performance of Brahms first sonata was carried out with the exposition one octave lower than written. However, when his sonata was published for the first time (with Brahms very much involved in the process), the current writing was already present. Hence, Brahms changed his mind after a few performances.
James Cambell has recorded the Brahms sonata an octave lower than written. It actually make the exposition easier. I discussed it with him once and he said that, from a historical perspective, both are correct. We get to choose.
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