 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-10-21 01:59
Today I visited my repair guy. He did a couple jobs I needed. On my Bb he replaced the cork under the throat G# key. And on my A he replaced a broken spring. The spring was the one that raises the RH rings after the fingers are lifted.
We had a nice chat while he worked. He's recently retired from the school system as a music teacher, and he's a long-time friend and a distant cousin to boot. Years ago he studied the repair business with a pro as part of his college degree, and he's been repairing instruments his whole life. He knows a lot of stories and interesting things and has a nicely ironic humor. I enjoy these little visits, which happen when my need for a repair coincides with one of his visits to the town that's midway between our residences.
Anyway, after the tech replaced the spring, he asked, hmm, was there play in these rings before? He showed me how he could wiggle the whole ring bar back and forth between the posts. I exclaimed, no - though what I probably meant by that was, I never noticed any play before.
So, when I said my no, the tech said he'd close up the daylight he could see at the end of the bar by bending the top post just a little. He took the rings back off and briefly used some kind of pliers on the post, then put the keywork back together. Hmm, he said, there's still a little play.
Sitting beside me was my double case, which had my Bb in it, I took out the lower joint of the Bb and checked for similar wiggle between posts of the RH ring bar, and it did indeed wiggle. I told the tech, and he said probably there's just some natural wear on both instruments (they are '70's vintage Buffets.) The tech then said, knowing that, I'm going to bend the post back to where it was. Off came the rings, on went the pliers, then reassembly, and the job was ready to check.
I took the joint in my right hand, and checked the action of the rings. Seemed fine.
We visited a bit more, and I paid him the $15 he asked - I'd been there over an hour. We went our separate ways. When I got home I took out the A to practice, since it had been close to a week since I'd broken the spring. I found there is a problem, one that hadn't been there before.
The uppermost pad on the RH joint that operates with the rings is not quite closing right, unless I push down on the rings a little harder. However, if I do that, the rings slightly catch on the rims of the holes and bind or drag a little when they are released. So the rings delay in raising up.
I fiddled around with the screws holding the rings, and found that if I loosened the top screw a turn or so, the problem seemed to go away - the pad closed ok, the rings didn't bind. Peering closely at the assembly, it looks like the screw may be forcing the bar slightly out of alignment when I tighten it fully - possibly (and possibly likely) because the post is not quite in the right position. I fiddled with the rings and screws a few ways, and I think I am right about the problem. I further think that, if the post were bent again just slightly from where it is, in the proper direction, the screw would no longer skew the bar it holds, and the rings would cease to bind, and probably the pad would close right.
I could call the tech and make another appointment so he can fix this - I think he gets back around to town about once a week.
OR, having seen how easy it is (ha), I could grasp a pair pliers in my own little hand and . . . . .
Well?
p.s. - don't "air check" repairs - play check them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: modernicus
Date: 2016-10-23 07:19
I'm just an amateur dabbler player/ self-taught instrument hack repairman, but if I understand you correctly, I don't think that is a very legitimate way to repair that problem, I hate to tell you. At the most temporary and reversible, I think something can be jammed in the hole where the point screws go, like tiny balls of Teflon tape. The posts can countersunk to take up play, but if you are beyond that point, material would need to be added and the tapered holes re-reamed. Anyway, I don't think I would use any regular pliers to try to straighten the post- there are post bending pliers for metal bodied woodwind instruments that would probably work better.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-10-23 08:43
Posts on non-metal body instruments are pretty much never bent. The only way it would even be possible is if it's one of those lock posts and there's enough play in its rod, so you're basically bending the lock tab, relying on the play (generally a bad idea).
Otherwise there's nothing to bend and the body will often break before the post will actually bend.
The way to repair play depends on the type of hinge and in this case where there are usually pivot screws it depends on the type of screws.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-10-23 10:46
Using a belt hole punch you can make a spacer with teflon sheet and insert between the post and key tube to take up excess play.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-10-23 10:50
Bending posts is never the right thing to do on a clarinet as a means of removing play in the hinges. When you say he did something with a pair of pliers, are you sure that he actually bent the post? The reason I ask is that the correct way to do this would be to swage (or swedge on your side of the pond) the hinge tube to slightly stretch it. This would have been done with a pair of swedging pliers, and it might well appear that he was bending the post.
If he actually was bending the post then I think you need to look for another repair guy. If there is free play on the hinge and you need to remove it and swedging is not an option, try this. Remove the point screws, cut a short length of plumbers teflon tape and roll it into a tiny ball. Push this ball of tape into the pivot hole in the end of the hinge and replace the pivot screw. Do this at both ends of the hinge. The ball of teflon with take up the slack. Fine tune by removing or adding more tape as necessary. This is not a permanent fix, but will keep it going until you can get a proper repair.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-10-23 12:00
>> Using a belt hole punch you can make a spacer with teflon sheet and insert between the post and key tube to take up excess play. <<
There are a few problems with that. It's really easy to lose it when disassembling the key again. More important, the accuracy of a realistic difference in thickness of teflon spacers is no where near the accuracy usually aimed for key fit (unless you use 0.015mm thick sheet and even that is borderline and makes the entire thing a lot more messy). Most important, this key has a hinge rod with pivot screws (on almost all clarinets) so adding shims wouldn't solve the problem of the key being loose around the screw, which is the main problem and the important part.
>> The reason I ask is that the correct way to do this would be to swage (or swedge on your side of the pond) the hinge tube to slightly stretch it. This would have been done with a pair of swedging pliers<<
Usually not for keys mounted on pivot screws. Swedging hinge rods (as opposed to tubes) is done sometimes, but almost never with pliers. The only exception is sometimes swedging the tube ends of hinge rods over pilot (straight end) pivot screws.
Shoving teflon into the ends is IMO only worth it as a band aid to prevent noise and usually not even for that. This is not good as a solid and reliable fit (e.g. put so much much that it slightly binds... then play for a while and it's loose again). Once compressed it is pretty noisy, so I'd rather just use grease or very thick oil instead until it can really be repaired.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-10-23 15:15
Clarinbass,
I have been using the teflon spacers on my personal instrument which I have been playing regularly for years and it stands the test of time so I do not know where you get your information.
Post Edited (2016-10-23 17:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-10-23 16:56
Some pillars are prone to being bent outwards causing a lot of end play - the usual culprits are the lower E/B key pillar and the RH ring key pillars. That usually happens when the anchoring screw has become loose and can very often be rectified by tightening up the screws which will pull the pillars back in again.
If there's still something of a gap, then a gentle tap with a hide, wooden or plastic mallet can straighten them, but tap them back with several small taps rather than one hefty whack as that can cause damage to the joint or the pillar whichever gives first. And make sure the anchor screw is tight beforehand and also afterwards.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: modernicus
Date: 2016-10-23 17:28
To clarify what I mentioned earlier, with a solid pivot rod with point screws, countersinking the holes in the posts a tiny bit more (with specific cutting tools for this purpose) so the screws can take up the space where the wear has occurred, I believe is the most "legitimate" way to fix this.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-10-23 18:02
Very interesting. I'm glad I didn't do anything yet.
The looseness between posts was only noticed when specifically looking for it (both instruments). It hasn't by itself caused any noticeable problem so far. I'll keep the Teflon tape idea in mind.
The current problem is something is misaligned, and it would seem to be the upper post. While working on that, my tech did say he could swage something instead, but he opted not to. I wish I'd watched what he actually did more closely.
There are anchor screws for these posts. I'll check those. Chris, thanks for the "gentle tap" suggestion. That's the furthest I'll go in trying to adjust things myself. Obviously, my main concern is avoiding damage to the wooden body.
Thanks everyone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-10-23 20:20
>> I do not know where you get your information. <<
I got my information from trying this on a few instruments and repeatedly checking what it's like after a certain amount "playing" (using the key), depending on how much play there was to begin with.
In all cases, putting an amount of teflon that is just right would have some play back pretty fast.
Putting slightly too much teflon so you can just feel a bit of friction, there was some play back after some time (not very fast but not that long either).
In some cases, I purposely put enough teflon to cause significant friction i.e. a little bit of resistance to the key movement. After some time there was free play again.
In addition teflon tape gets compressed and becomes pretty hard. It feels soft and squishy at first because of the air gaps, etc.
I thoroughly experimented with this method because I wanted to know how reliable it was if I wanted to use it. I use this method on rare occasions, but I don't consider it reliable to remove play, just a temporary fix, or when really removing the play is not so important. It absolutely can make a very loose key significantly less loose, but a little bit of play is usually not enough of a problem to bother with this (for reasons mentioned above) or I'd want to do what I consider a more reliable repair.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-10-23 20:46
Sax posts get bent. But a clarinet posts? Perhaps he meant it was turned, or loose. Anyway, if there is excessive play removed from the key or the position/ alignment of the post is changed, the pad will not land in the same place.
Steve Ocone
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-10-23 20:47
On plastic bodied clarinets you need end play between pillars relative to their lengths so the keys don't bind up solid if you're playing in the cold. Larger plastic bass and contra alto/contrabass clarinets therefore need a much greater amount of end play, often over 1mm, to be sure the long rods don't bind up solid. It may seem like shoddy workmanship, but it is done for a very good reason. Makers of such large plastic clarinets can't predict where their instruments are going to end up, so they cover their arses for any eventuality.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-10-23 23:16
Clarinbass,
I do not use teflon tape. I use sheet teflon and punch out one circle with the largest setting and then punch on top of that with the smallest setting which creates a teflon washer.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2016-10-24 00:45
I have a key on my clarinet that has a teflon spacer as described above, and I concur with Clarnibass that it is not an ideal solution. Easy to lose it when dismantling the key (and it might seem as though that is just an issue of "taking care", one day I might have to do this in less than idea circumstances.... earlier this year I spent 5min of a pro gig crawling on the floor looking for a screw lost from a colleagues bassoon...).
Also (as Clarnibass originally stated) it solves the problem on endplay by removing the movement in the direction of the length of the key (longitudinal play?) without solving the problem that the width of the screw-point has play.
That said, I've played with that spacer there for about 2 years now without any significant problem (I don't think I could have done so with a cork pad, but the valentino pad on the key is quite forgiving). I don't believe it to be the most ideal solution, but it works for now.
dn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-10-24 06:37
Bending the posts should never be done. Misalignment of the screws will often cause binding. Teflon is surely a better way. To keep this from happening to your horns always have them serviced every 6 months to a year and ask the repairman what type of oil he/she uses. The heavier the better. I use gear oil of a few of the screws, but usually something like Lucas Heavy Duty oil is fantastic for most or all of your keys. In 15 years the keys still won't have any play in them.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-10-27 18:18
I called my technician and described my symptoms. He said that I could try pliers, but never having manipulated a post before I'd likely go too far ("If you feel it, it's too much.") He repeated Chris's gentle tap advice.
Later I tried the gentle tap thing, but gave it up without making any noticeable change. My hands can find their way around clarinet keys ok, but they don't have much craftsman I.Q.
This week I got together with the tech again. He made a tiny adjustment to the post - he uses a little pair of toothless flat-jaw pliers. No looseness in the post. The problem got better. Then he made several other small adjustments, to the rings, the pad, and the linkage. After that, things worked beautifully, probably better than they did before the spring broke.
I've probably been compensating for a little closure problem forever, by pressing a little harder with my rh fingers. My tech said my instruments could probably use an overhaul by a good tech - he meant someone better than himself.
I've learned why key oil, which I've never used, is good. Even for keys that "seem to work", it will reduce wear and avoid looseness. Which does seem obvious when viewed as a complete thought.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
