 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-29 03:07
Prompted by a recent exchange, I want to say something about this BBoard, and the questions that are posed here.
I'd say that ANY question is acceptable. Even people who have very little expertise or experience deserve to be taken seriously, because sometimes their being given a wise word at an early stage is more powerful than their being given many wise words at a later stage.
That of course is just my opinion; but I think it might have general acceptance here.
But, when someone asks a question, and is answered, I personally think that the questioner owes it to the BBoard to take a responsible attitude to the exchange.
That is, to use the answer as a stimulus to their OWN continuing investigation of their problem. (That, of course, doesn't necessarily mean AGREEING with the answer.)
See, just as I'm not prepared to put up with my own students waiting about for ME to solve THEIR problems, I'm not prepared to let question-askers off the responsibility to engage with the BBoard as authors of their own development.
I'm not saying that they have to DEMONSTRATE that they're engaging. That would be asking too much. It's enough that they refrain from asking further, silly questions, the answers to which are very often available by simple web searches. That they sometimes ask such questions clearly demonstrates that they're not BEING SERIOUS. I won't put up with that.
Of course, asking PERTINENT questions is another matter; that gladdens the heart of anyone involved in such an exchange.
I'm now only an occasional visitor here. But I still say the level of discussion could be higher. Someone went on record as saying that the BBoard is more of a discussion 'over the garden fence' than anything more serious.
I think on the contrary it's more valuable than that. Who he?
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-29 03:18
Re getting students to take responsibility:
An ex-student of mine once phoned me up and said that he was playing the Berio Sequenza in a concert. He was concerned about the multiphonics in the latter part of the piece, which are actually unobtainable as written on a normal clarinet without the low Eb key.
"What I've been doing," he said, "is singing the other note. Is that OK?"
I replied that I didn't know. "Does it give an acceptable result?" I asked.
"Well, that's what I want to know. Is it alright that it isn't a multiphonic?"
"That depends on what it sounds like," I said.
"Yes, but what's your own personal opinion? Would I be justified in changing what he wrote to that degree?"
"Well," I said, "I suppose the only person who would *really* know that is Berio himself. Tell you what, I'll give you his phone number, and then you can ask him."
"Oh, no, I wouldn't want to do that!" said my student.
"Why not, he's quite approachable," I said.
"No, I understand that," he said, "but....what if he says no?"
Tony
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-09-29 05:13
Fair post. I agree. I'm much more apt to pay attention and see answers on a post that starts off saying that they've done some research, or have no clue to begin, or are having trouble deciding than one that just says, "What's the best ____?" which is clearly looking for an easy answer and too lazy to take time to look up potential answers and compare them on their own.
Glad to have you here, Tony. Admittedly, most of your discussions and posts are above my level and I have trouble understanding or knowing what the heck you're talking about, but I'm about to start up a new bout of lessons and maybe I'll be able to understand just a little more.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-29 07:17
Tony Pay wrote:
> Why didn't 'MoonPatrol' investigate the issue further, before
> making his post? Why didn't he listen to the piece, even?
I think he was demonstrating his inexperience with reading a full score. The multiple measures of rest weren't shown in the score because publishers economize by dropping the staves of instruments that don't play through a whole system. Sometimes, at a low enough level of experience with something, you don't know what it is that you need to investigate further.
But to your point here, however careless or misinformed the question was, he only posted once more, and not to argue or reject the answers he got, but to suggest for himself that the missing clarinet staves might have misled him. The rest of thread was the work of others.
Your more general point is very apt - in fact if I could, I would delete any question that begins with "What is the best...?" The question is immediately unanswerable on its face and only invites a series of competing preferences.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-29 15:39
>> I think he was demonstrating his inexperience with reading a full score. The multiple measures of rest weren't shown in the score because publishers economize by dropping the staves of instruments that don't play through a whole system.>>
Indeed they do; but that wouldn't put Bb and A clarinet parts adjacent to each other, which is what's required to perceive an 'impossible' change.
>> Sometimes, at a low enough level of experience with something, you don't know what it is that you need to investigate further.>>
I agree – but I find this particular example incomprehensible. Perhaps it's me who is suffering from failure of the imagination, though...
...I remember listening to a presentation by a teacher at a CASS conference who said she had a young student whose problem was that he couldn't remember which hand went above which on the clarinet. "He must play pretty terribly then," I commented.
"No, he's really quite good," she said.
I still can't get my head round it.
Tony
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-29 17:11
Tony Pay wrote:
> ...I remember listening to a presentation by a teacher at a
> CASS conference who said she had a young student whose problem
> was that he couldn't remember which hand went above which on
> the clarinet. "He must play pretty terribly then," I
> commented.
>
> "No, he's really quite good," she said.
>
> I still can't get my head round it.
>
Funny, I can accept this fairly easily as well, at least up to the point when the young student needs to use any of the keys in addition to the open tone holes. By that time, it's true, he might still be confused, but the need to use keys that only exist on one side then becomes a reminder.
My only point is that, once answered, he didn't persist, and maybe spent a few minutes kicking himself for not having looked at a part on IMSLP or elsewhere instead of a score. Question asked, answered, move on.
Of course, there were a number of responders who gave almost identical answers, clearly not having read the preceding ones. That's another frequent irritant.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-09-29 19:04
Thinking for oneself can lead to questioning the statements of others, mistakenly or otherwise. If one starts from wrong assumptions, answers in another context may be correct, yet cause confusion if they don't target the assumptions. If you don't understand and can't figure it out, ask. We should allow for this.
I recall a beginner who had fixed in their mind that pitch went up as more holes were closed down. He strove almost miraculously to make that work, but the result was chaos until, two weeks along, the teacher finally got him to articulate his misconception.
However, often enough we see thoughtless posts. This board is far from the worst forum of that. I've taken to reading comments to news articles and public forums on different topics - especially those allowing anonymity - because, though it often raises my blood pressure, it's too great and awful a general statement about the fragmentary way many people think to be ignored.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-09-30 14:27
i have found the Board especially benefical.. particularly in seeking advice re equipment and pedagogy resources.. I purhcased all suggested and it gave me a great foundation of head knowledge. I'm now using that knowledge to try and teach my kids.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-30 18:50
SarahC wrote:
> i have found the Board especially benefical.. particularly in
> seeking advice re equipment and pedagogy resources..
I've actually become a great deal more open to a variety of ideas than I was when I started to frequent the BBoard. I was heavily rooted in my training without much patience toward anything that differed. Sometimes the responses even to basic questions have forced me to think or re-think about problems that I long ago thought I or my teachers had solved.
BTW, I have to thank Tony Pay and his explicit and frequent rejection of the given wisdom of the pronouncements of highly reputed players for much of what I've learned here. The sort of iconoclastic non-acceptance of authority in matters of both music and the clarinet and the need to work out ones own solutions is a realization I owe mostly to Tony and a few others. So the BBoard, for all its sometime weaknesses - it *is* very lightly moderated with very few filters - still has a power, in my view, to move and broaden players who are willing to think about what they're doing.
The participants here represent a widely diverse set of abilities, needs and interests with only the clarinet to provide commonality. I'm grateful to those whose analytical skills are keener than mine for the insights they open, and I'm equally grateful if anything I offer can help someone with less experience than I have.
Karl
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2016-09-30 19:53
I remember, as a raw beginner, asking what I now realise to be a pretty daft question and being answered, at length, by some very generous professional clarinettists. I was overwhelmed by the fact that they had bothered to reply to someone as green as me and did so with grace and without condescension. For which, many thanks!
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-09-30 21:08
I have on several occasions asked questions about or raised matters of interpretation, "period" instruments, phrasing, tempi, editions, repertoire, etc., and I find that this arouses little interest unfortunately. I never get more than a few responses. It's synthetic reeds, barrels and the like that seem to interest people most. Are clarinetists too utilitarian and materialistic? I might add that I work for an instrument maker, so make no claims to being indifferent to equipment. But to the exclusion of all else...?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-09-30 21:33
ruben- Perhaps the interest in less trendy topics is out there, but not everyone is always watching. And if someone comes back after a few days or weeks, your topic may have scrolled down even off the first page. It takes a deliberate effort on the part of a casual observer to look over the last several weeks worth of new topics to notice anything that might be unique or interesting. Ligatures, reeds, barrels, and mouthpieces will always float to the top. I'm guilty also.
It's also very important that the title of a thread accurately convey the content- and it's nicer not to spill into a 2nd line. Maybe not everybody knows they can edit an original post and refine its title any time.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-09-30 21:36)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-30 22:16
ruben wrote:
> I have on several occasions asked questions about or raised
> matters of interpretation, "period" instruments, phrasing,
> tempi, editions, repertoire, etc., and I find that this arouses
> little interest unfortunately. I never get more than a few
> responses.
I'm not sure you really want more than that in response to those kinds of topics. In the best of all worlds, you'd want people to respond to a topic who have something to say. Once someone has expressed an opinion, and hopefully justified it, about a matter of phrasing or tempo, anything more is prone to become defensive and involves a degree of position-taking, at which point a discussion is in danger of simply spinning its wheels unless some movement is taking place.
Even in the long lists of responses to the equipment threads, a great deal of it is needless me-too-ing, or offerings of simple personal preferences (why I don't like and avoid "Best of..." questions from their start) that really are irrelevant to any meaningful discussion.
I would never offer anything about period instrument performance - I have no experience with it. You'd certainly want those discussions to attract players who do have experience. I would suggest that a limited response does not necessarily indicate a lack of interest among those of us who don't respond but keep our mouths shut (and our keyboards still) because we're unable to contribute.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-10-01 04:17
With Tony Pay, we have a world-class expert on early clarinets and practical performance on them. He has time and again given perceptive answers to interesting questions. That alone makes this board valuable and, indeed, unique. Eric Hoeprich, an eminent player and instrument maker, has also contributed. I have also passed questions on to Al Rice, probably the world expert on clarinet history on the Yahoo Early Clarinet board and repeated his advice here.
In short, this is one of the best resources of any kind on the Net. I'm more than happy to share what I've learned in 60 years of clarinet playing, even when the question comes from a beginner. For subjects that don't interest me, nothing is easier than skipping to the next question.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-10-01 15:10
Ken: I would certainly add you to the list of distinguished contributors to this board and when your posts become few and far between, I for one, greatly miss them. PS: I have known French and German boards, but "ours" has the advantage of being international, thanks to the universality of the English language. It does, however, tend to be "Americanocentric".
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-10-01 15:28
It seems that some of the correspondents to this BB also post to THIS forum as well.
Makes for some interesting reading:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?7772-The-Clarinet-BBoard-where-the-weak-are-killed-and-eaten
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2016-10-01 18:13
I think this BB serves a very useful purpose. Unfortunately, I suspect that some of the mentality that has afflicted some computer forum sites has filtered in. These sites can be very dismissive if the person hasn't done their own homework. I suppose this is not, really, a music or clarinet thing, but just how society has gone downhill in terms of civility.
On a separate subject, I have started a blog about reed science. Astronomers are doing great things with citizen scientists helping them with their research (classifying galaxies, etc.). Reeds are very much, also, a statistical material, so many eyes can help.
I am a novice with blogging, but I hope to post some interesting articles and collect most of the available data on both single and double reeds.
The site is:
www.reedsciencesite.wordpress.com
Donald Casadonte
P. S. Mark Charette - I tried to e-mail you, but your e-mail got bounced back.
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-10-02 04:58
Mark Charette replied: ''13 year old thread''
Certainly, but I sense that a good deal of opinions expressed on this BB have not changed in that time, so the comments expressed on the ''sax on the web'' site are still relevant.
Is this not so?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-02 05:38
ned wrote:
> Mark Charette replied: ''13 year old thread''
>
> Certainly, but I sense that a good deal of opinions expressed
> on this BB have not changed in that time, so the comments
> expressed on the ''sax on the web'' site are still relevant.
>
> Is this not so?
If you really have a point to make, it would be useful (a) to have a link to the thread that provoked the comments on SaxOntheWeb and (b) a link or two to current Clarinet BB threads in which you feel the weak are still being killed and eaten. If you've found "a good deal of opinions" expressed here are hostile, I'm wondering which ones.
Even the original poster at SaxOntheWeb only cited one thread in which he thought someone was being abused and victimized - and at that only 2 abusers.
Karl
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-10-02 16:56
In his original message up at the top, Tony Pay wrote,
>> Even people who have very little expertise or experience deserve to be taken seriously, because sometimes their being given a wise word at an early stage is more powerful than their being given many wise words at a later stage.
>>
That's an important point, IMHO. One of the things I've always liked about this BB is the welcoming, respectful way most users treat beginning clarinet players, who sometimes preface their questions with apologetic remarks such as, "This is probably a stupid question, but...." Usually the questions are anything but stupid. They're the kind of questions the askers can't easily look up for themselves online or in books because the askers don't yet have the vocabularies to know how to word the questions succinctly enough for robots to narrow down the probable sources of information. Here in the forum, with questions directed to humans instead of to search engines, more experienced musicians can ask for more information and help figure out just what's being asked.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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