 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2016-09-24 21:14
Upon studying the score for Beethoven's 9th, I noticed there are three different clarinets written for, B,C & A. After the 2nd fanfare of terror in the 4th movement, the part goes from Bb to A. Looking at the time allowed to grab your A clarinet and still finish the notes on the Bb, you have about two quarter rests to make the change. My guess is the players do the fanfare with the same clarinet in Bb and then have plenty of time to switch once the vocal recitative begins. All needed then would be to transpose the fanfare to B on separate piece of manuscript paper. (that's what I would do given the opportunity to play such a piece). As for the C clarinet, I wonder if players actually pull one out for the 2nd movement or transpose and deal with that. Please let me know your thoughts.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-09-24 23:22
I use a C when the composer wants a C. Usually I have time to swap mouthpieces, but if I recall the last Beethoven 9, I do have "clone" copies of my mouthpiece, so I'll have the double ready for a quick swap. When impossible, I figure a good time to swap earlier, then transpose, or later, also transposing to that spot.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-09-25 00:17
Hmm. On IMSLP, the Beethoven 9 clarinet parts are all in Bb at the start of the finale, and only change to A in bar 92, where the big tune starts and you have masses of time to change. I never remembered having a fast change problem there - what edition are you looking at?
As for fast changes in general, have a search here for discussion of playing with a single barrel on both instruments - the best way to accomplish fast changes with security.
Regarding C clarinet in the Beethoven (and elsewhere), I would say the following. I don't believe that composers of Beethoven's era wrote for a particular clarinet with a special sound in mind - more for convenience of transposition in an era of primitive keywork. So I don't think we are compelled to use his notated instrument. For example, the violin concerto has outer movements in A but the slow movement is in C. Since you want the solo there to have the most gorgeous sound you can muster, I much prefer to stay on A throughout. Another generic argument against switching is tuning: most people with C clarinets tend to have something cheaper than their main instruments, so switching to C means that the tuning will suffer. For this reason, I would choose to transpose Beethoven C clarinet parts, even though I do own a C. Where you should use one is either with a composer like Mahler, who wants to make a feature of a distinct tone colour, or where sight transposition would just be too hard (Strauss; some Italian opera).
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-25 02:31
I'm curious what edition you're looking at. The score and two diffreent parts I have access to continue on Bb clarinet through bar 91 and then the clarinet doesn't play again until bar 164, when it is for clarinet in A. Then you change back to Bb between measure 321 and the next entrance at 339, which includes a ritardando and a fermata, so plenty of time. You go back to A clarinet at 602 after enough rests to go out for a brew.
Players that I knew in the late 1950s through the early 1970s when I was a student all transposed - I never saw a C clarinet as a student or a young adult. My impression has always been that players started taking the request for C clarinet seriously only in the 1980s or later. I played the movement on a Bb clarinet for years whenever the symphony came up for me. I use a C clarinet now, as I think do many players in far better orchestras than I play in.
Karl
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-09-25 03:41
C clarinet is making a comeback. But not many people have one, even full-time players.
Most people just transpose.
I personally feel that using the C clarinet is appropriate IF the composer intended for the tonal characteristic (ex. Mahler). However, if the decision historically was to make the music more manageable then our modern chromatic instruments in B-flat or A will suffice. The tonal difference may, in fact, have been a nuisance to composers who wanted to use more advanced instruments but did not have them available in that key.
Another instrument this happened with was the Timpani. There's a reason early symphonies include only tympani hits on tonic/dominant configurations. It's because the drums were not easily tuned. Nowadays with tuning pedals the timpani can actually become a melodic instrument, and with a fantastic player with 4-5 drums, completely chromatic.
I'd love to see a dissertation about this stuff.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-09-25 04:10
The others are correct, I just "dug out" my copy of the Ninth. While I have played many Orchestral pieces with near panic swaps, Beethoven's Ninth is not one of them.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: gwie
Date: 2016-09-25 08:00
For every panic swap I ever had in orchestra, I just used my identical spare mouthpiece and had both clarinets set up, ready to go. I tended to use a softer reed for my A (a Buffet R-13 at the time), which was a tad more resistant than my Bb.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-09-25 08:28
Transpose to C. It's hard to find a decent C clarinet for such a special piece.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-09-25 08:37)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-25 14:43
>> I don't believe that composers of Beethoven's era wrote for a particular clarinet with a special sound in mind - more for convenience of transposition in an era of primitive keywork. So I don't think we are compelled to use his notated instrument. For example, the violin concerto has outer movements in A but the slow movement is in C. Since you want the solo there to have the most gorgeous sound you can muster, I much prefer to stay on A throughout.>>
You choose here an example that doesn't support your case, technically.
The slow movement 'solo' is actually a duet with the ethereal violin, accompanied just by violins and later, violas. On a period C clarinet, playing it involves a slide C#/D#, plus reaching round the back of the instrument with your thumb for the B/C# transition to avoid another. You then have for your last note a low B, the only third in the G major chord (everyone else is playing a G, actually) for which you hopefully have a key.
There is also the Eb/C slide if you play it on the A clarinet, but the point is that it's no more demanding than what you have to do on the C. So he didn't write it for C clarinet to make it easier technically.
What IS more difficult to do on the A clarinet is to match the silvery sound of the high violin. It needs to be a particular SORT of 'gorgeous'. One is reminded of the wonderful trio of obbligato violin and two C clarinets in the later Missa Solemnis. Beethoven of all people understood such things: he wasn't deaf when he learnt how to use the orchestra.
Before I equipped myself with a (modern) C clarinet, I used to play this passage on the Bb clarinet, which I figured anyway enabled me to get nearer to the sense of sweet innocence and loss I felt was required – even though (but also because) it involves a switch of instrument.
Tony
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-09-25 23:47
Tony:
I hesitate to put my foot any further into my mouth in the face of a body of experience like yours. My opinion was based purely on playing the concerto on modern instruments. There, like you, I started out doing the middle movement on Bb. But now I wouldn't choose to do that: partly because I felt that the "solo duet" called for a purity of sound that was best delivered by the more mellow A. But a more practical reason was that I didn't like having to deliver that important entry on a "new" instrument. Whenever I change, it takes me a little while to adjust: the sound production is different, and you're not quite sure where the tuning is. To give of your best musically, it's better not to have these distractions. I suppose one could change towards the end of the 1st movement and transpose for a bit so as to be in the groove when the slow movement came. But that would only be worth doing if the Bb sound was what I wanted. I agree that a sad innocence is what's to be communicated, but it hadn't occurred to me that this should involve matching the violin: their part moves faster and seems to contrast naturally with the velvety clarinet line. I can't see that the biting sound of the C clarinet is consistent with giving the violin that cushion, and going to Bb is going to make things just a bit more C-like. Still, the tuning argument trumps all this: few in the audience will notice the subtle changes in tone colour that we obsess over - but it will be very obvious if I spoil things by being out of tune on a cold instrument.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-09-26 01:00
I think a lot of this comes down to personal taste personally. I'd love to do further reading on this subject. Can anyone recommend a book?
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-26 01:39
>> Still, the tuning argument trumps all this: few in the audience will notice the subtle changes in tone colour that we obsess over - but it will be very obvious if I spoil things by being out of tune on a cold instrument.>>
That's your choice, of course.
Allowing for the different instrument, and still playing in tune, was my choice.
I don't agree that "few in the audience will notice"...
...and, I don't "obsess over" such things, they're just a part of what I bring to music...
...and the sound of a C clarinet is not necessarily "biting".
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-09-26 17:30
Most professional clarinet players I know in my long orchestral career, 51 years, leaned how to transpose. Mostly from a Bb clarinet for a C part, but sometimes using their A clarinet. Many also transpose short passages from Bb to A or visa versa to avoid a quick change in some cases. Of course not all players do it all the time in the same passages. I even know players that have chosen to transpose some sections because they found it easier on the opposite clarinet or simply thought it sounded better using a clarinet other than the one it was written for. It's all very individual and no one in the audience has any idea if the player is using a Bb, A or C clarinet. It may be that the "purest" knowing the score and the players playing may be able to tell the difference in some cases but that would be a very rare bird indeed. Learn to transpose if you want to be an accomplished player. Just like you should learn to read the bass clef, and transpose A parts, if you take up the bass clarinet.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-09-26 20:30
As usual I like Eddie's thinking. Learning to transpose isn't that hard after a few weeks. The trick is to look at it as a different key signature, not changing each note. However the 9th is tricky because of all of the sharps in the key signature, but don't let this bother you, because the piece flows well. Please play it slowly at first using the trusty metronome. At a point articulation can become a minor challenge with the speed, depending on how the conductor takes the tempo. I really love this piece, but sadly I've only played it twice in 40 years. I'd like to play it twice a year!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-09-26 20:38)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-26 20:46
The thing is, if you already have a C clarinet, there's no point in transposing it. It does lie a little better on the C instrument. Before I owned a C, I didn't mind the transposition and just accepted that transposing it onto a Bb clarinet was the expectation.
Most of the orchestral trumpet players I know play almost everything except piccolo trumpet parts on a C trumpet. They rarely use their Bbs and don't own As or Ebs. Most horn players I know play everything on a double horn (Bb/F) and transpose the parts for horn in C, D, Eb, G, and A. So transposition isn't such a rare or mysterious or exclusive skill. You need to practice it, first with simple, mostly diatonic pieces.
As a last resort if you aren't comfortable transposing directly from the original notation, you can always pencil in the transposed notes in chromatically complicated passages. Better to actually write it out (in software or manuscript) and tape the transposed version over the original with the removable tape that is now being made by Scotch/3M (maybe others as well). Avoid to the greatest degree possible writing letter names above the original printed notes - it drives everyone else nuts.
Karl
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-09-26 22:04
Like the idea of playing things on the instruments they were written for, but as a matter of practical aesthetics, a lot depends on how different one's C, if one owns a C, sounds from the Bb. Some makers seem to try to make the different pitches sound as close as possible, and others glory in the different tone colors. It used to be a macho thing to play everything on Bb, hence the low Eb keys; a respectable British player told me he used to do that with "Contrasts."
The analogy with trumpets is apt. The principals in Berlin seem to play nearly everything on the same instruments, even though Strauss, Mahler and Brukner frequently specified Ds, Bbs and other pitched trumpets for the different sound qualities. It was singular that in the recent concert John Adams conducted, the principal was playing a small trumpet--I'd guess an F, but it might have been something else. Adams probably insisted, which the others, being dead, can't really do anymore. Don't know that I would have heard the difference, though; the bore looked nearly the same, and it sounds great whatever they play.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-09-26 22:24
In several recent performance of Berlin Phil, they all played Beethoven No.9 in B and A clarinets. I guess if top orchestras accept the fact that C clarinet is not really necessary, then there is really no need to argue we must play Beethoven 1, 5 and 9 using C clarinet for certain part (also Schubert Great etc.). Besides, new synthetic reeds make the quick change much easier because we now can have two almost same mouthpiece-reed-ligature setups for both instruments and there is no need to warm up the reeds. dorjepismo wrote:
> Like the idea of playing things on the instruments they were
> written for, but as a matter of practical aesthetics, a lot
> depends on how different one's C, if one owns a C, sounds from
> the Bb. Some makers seem to try to make the different pitches
> sound as close as possible, and others glory in the different
> tone colors. It used to be a macho thing to play everything on
> Bb, hence the low Eb keys; a respectable British player told me
> he used to do that with "Contrasts."
>
> The analogy with trumpets is apt. The principals in Berlin
> seem to play nearly everything on the same instruments, even
> though Strauss, Mahler and Brukner frequently specified Ds, Bbs
> and other pitched trumpets for the different sound qualities.
> It was singular that in the recent concert John Adams
> conducted, the principal was playing a small trumpet--I'd guess
> an F, but it might have been something else. Adams probably
> insisted, which the others, being dead, can't really do
> anymore. Don't know that I would have heard the difference,
> though; the bore looked nearly the same, and it sounds great
> whatever they play.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 00:00
If we've got to the very low intellectual level of making what some 'famous' orchestras currently do determine what OUR relationship with great composers like Beethoven SHOULD be, then the debate is over.
However, I'm not going to give up. The point is a subtle one.
I have no problem with John Peacock's choice to play the slow movement of op 61 on his A clarinet.
My problem is with his statement: "I don't believe that composers of Beethoven's era wrote for a particular clarinet with a special sound in mind - more for convenience of transposition in an era of primitive keywork. So I don't think we are compelled to use his notated instrument."
Here he uses spurious arguments to justify HIS choice.
I already posted why I think that the bit about "convenience of transposition in an era of primitive keywork" doesn't fly in the case of op 61. And, I gave an argument why Beethoven might very well have wanted the sound of the (period) C clarinet at that point.
John Peacock says later that there are problems to do with keeping the C (or perhaps in his case, Bb) clarinet ready in tune for the slow movement.
But these problems are solvable. (You can keep the instrument under your jacket in the latter parts of the first movement, for example, as I have often done.)
See, it's not that I want to challenge his CHOICE. What I want to challenge is his JUSTIFICATION of that choice.
His 'choice' lives in the world of his performance. Depending on the circumstances, he may very well have done the best he could.
But his 'justification' currently lives in the world of this BBoard. And I won't allow it to stand.
Each of you has to make your own choice, in each circumstance, because some of you may have access to a C clarinet, some of you may have time to find out its qualities, some of you may even have the possibility to have lessons on it, and some of you may not have a hope in Hell of any of that.
Fundamentally, we're all engaging with what Beethoven wrote. I think I've made a case that that wasn't just casual.
Do you know the movie, "The Life of Brian"? In it, there's a scene where a character barters a price for a gourd in a market. Then, someone says, yes, I'll buy another one at that price. NO, says the seller. WE have to start over again.
Tony
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 00:30
I personally believe IF someone insists that C clarinet is a must to play Beethoven symphonies, then they should never ever play Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Schumann, Bruckner, Mahler etc. using Boehm clarinets.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 00:45
>> I personally believe IF someone insists that C clarinet is a must to play Beethoven symphonies, then they should never ever play Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Schumann, Bruckner, Mahler etc. using Boehm clarinets.>>
I see what lies behind what you say; but it's too extreme.
First, there are very few people who would say that C clarinet is a MUST – it depends on the circumstances. Perhaps there are more who would say that it's worth trying to obtain a C clarinet to play Beethoven symphonies, because it adds a dimension to the pieces.
Then, some people – and I include myself – do play Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Schumann, Bruckner, Mahler etc. on non-Boehm clarinets, in orchestras like the OAE.
Tony
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 01:35
Tony, I agree with you here. Using C to play Beethoven Symphonies is fine. But I really do not like some C owners tend to say "don't transpose it, Beethoven wrote for C not for your B or A" or "transposing it is against Beethoven's intention" or something like that. Furthermore, in some pieces there are some much more severe compromises, for example, basically no orchestra nowadays uses Ophicleïde to play symphonie fantastique. Similarly, nearly all orchestras now use valve horns to play Brahms even though Brahms clearly stated that he does not like the valve horn and he wrote his music for the natural horn.
Just out of curiosity, dear C clarinet owner here, do you play Brahms 4 second CL using C (or your full boehm C)?
Post Edited (2016-09-27 02:24)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 01:54
>> Tony, I agree with you here. Using C to play Beethoven Symphonies is fine. But I really do not like some C owners tend to say "don't transpose it, Beethoven wrote for C not for your B or A" or "transposing it is against Beethoven's intention" or something like that.>>
Well, it's true, so you might as well say it. But if the person you're speaking to can't get hold of a C clarinet, then you don't want to say it too strongly.
>> Furthermore, in some pieces there are some much more severe compromises, for example, basically no orchestra nowadays uses Ophicleïde to play symphonie fantastique.>>
Well, we do.
>> Just out of curiosity, dear C clarinet owner here, do you play Brahms 4 second CL using C (or your full boehm C)?>>
Since I happen not quite yet to have gone to bed, I'll tell you that I play it on C clarinet. Sometimes I leave the Eb out; but if I have a helpful reed, I use the 'embrasure' technique:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/1999/02/000454.txt
Tony
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 02:16
OK, I correct myself:
If you are in an orchestra where string section use gut string instruments, horn and trumpet section use natural horns and natural trumpets, flute section use wooden flutes, clarinet section use German clarinets, oboe section use Viennese oboes. Then to match such level of authenticity, please use your German C clarinet to play Beethoven.
Post Edited (2016-09-27 02:34)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 03:16
>> OK, I correct myself:
>> If you are in an orchestra where string section use gut string instruments, horn and trumpet section use natural horns and natural trumpets, flute section use wooden flutes, clarinet section use German clarinets, oboe section use Viennese oboes. Then to match such level of authenticity, please use your German C clarinet to play Beethoven.>>
Yes, I am, and I do there use my German C clarinet to play Beethoven. The orchestra is called the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.
I am also principal clarinet of the Academy of Ancient Music – of which what you write is also true.
But, I don't refuse offers to play in other orchestras, in which I use various instruments.
I was previously also principal clarinet of the London Sinfonietta, the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and the Academy of Saint-Martin-in-the-Fields.
Anything else?
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 04:31
The idea of period performance is to try to recapture what we may have lost as a result of the development of instruments over time.
Some of that may still be sensed in modern performance by using instruments like C clarinets that have different natures, and therefore give different results from their parts transposed for Bb and A instruments.
You can say that the different natures of the early instruments don't 'carry over' to modern instruments. Well, that's true in part; but it's a matter of degree. And you can't judge the issue until you've tried it.
Most people haven't; and even those that have tried it may well not have done so in the spirit of investigation and discovery. Clearly, if you think that a modern C clarinet is necessarily 'biting' in nature, you may never be able to find its sweet side.
You don't have to have the whole orchestra change in order to make discoveries of this sort – even though, when they do, the results can be revelatory. 'Klose', whoever he is, suggests that only a thoroughgoing approach is acceptable – that we have to conform to some sort of 'authentic police' strategy.
I say not. And an increasing number of conductors, substituting earlier trumpets, horns and timpani for modern instruments in performances of classical music, agree.
Tony
Post Edited (2016-09-27 05:27)
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-09-27 07:48
Tony Pay -
Thank You for taking time to address this issue with the Bboard. I find it fascinating that there are those to take you to task for having actual working experience through your successful clarinet career, and telling it "like it is."
There were times when this blogsite had many "heavy-hitters" expressing opinions and sharing experiences. I loved that!
Seems the majority of posters these days ask the same questions, then argue with the answers.
You're appreciated!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-09-27 08:30
As for a few selected operas do you buy D clarinets? Or do you transpose? I know I'm changing the subject, but I do feel we need to all be able to transpose to different clefs. I have a C clarinet, but to this day I've never used it. In fact it's in parts as I was going to repad it, tune it, undercut some holes, get rid of dead notes and get rid of notes that pop out. It's been sitting in a box for years. Why? I don't like the C clarinet sound. It's that simple.
I like the purity of transposing the 9th and other symphonies from really great Bb clarinets.
C clarinets have such a different brighter sound.
A funny story and a VERY true story. My old friend Bob Marcellus was looking for a special sound with the Cleveland Orchestra and he was testing a crystal mouthpiece. The Amazing conductor George or spelled Geog Szell told Bob not to ever use it during next weeks recording session. Well poor Bob couldn't find the right mouthpiece so he painted the glass mouthpiece black. After the recording session Szell took him aside and said that painted black mouthpiece didn't fool me. Get rid of it. Bob didn't share this story with me, but he told Steve Barta and Steve told me!
Long story short, yes most people can't tell if you are playing a C clarinet or a Bb clarinet. However try to play most C clarinet parts on Bb; during these eras. The 9th sym is difficult but everyone can do it. Practice 4 or 5 hours a day using a metronome and transpose using a clef, not transposing each note and you will get it right.
Trust me the 9th is actually a somewhat hard piece, depending on the speed, but there are MUCH harder pieces to transpose.
If you google this piece someone has probably already transposed it. For a small fee you can buy it already transposed. Maybe $30 or as little as free, or if you have the software music notation you can do it in about an hour or 2. So trust yourself that the Bb clarinet has a sweeter sound for this really amazing work.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-09-27 08:41)
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Author: patrica
Date: 2016-09-27 11:02
Tony, how low can you go by using the 'embrasure' technique? Can you play all basset notes on normal clarinet?
Post Edited (2016-09-27 11:03)
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Author: patrica
Date: 2016-09-27 11:07
Also, Tony, could you please persuade your British colleagues to use German clarinets for Beethoven symphonies?
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-09-27 15:22
Tony,
Various distinct points in your postings:
(1) You criticise a "low intellectual level" of justification for playing choices. OK, it's all too easy to stop thinking about what best suits the music. I remember playing Stravinsky as a student and being publicly castigated for just lazily trying to make it beautiful when spiky was the priority - it was a fair cop. But I think I justified my reasoning over the choice of A in op 61: or at least I *have* thought about it. If you insist that one should match the violin sound there, then maybe it's the wrong choice - but that's a different kind of argument to have.
(2) I think you are asserting that Beethoven did choose the C clarinet in op 61 on grounds of sound, but can you clarify the argument? You say "he didn't write it for C clarinet to make it easier technically", which is fair enough. But is there evidence that he actually worried at all about technical challenges to his clarinettists, or indeed that he thought there was any significant difference in sound between A & C? I'd assumed that in the early days composers would just write for the clarinet that was closest to the key signature in question, but I confess that this was just a guess. And some musical cases argue against it: Schubert asks for the A clarinet in 3 flats in the 2nd movement of his 9th, when staying on C would have been easier. There are no super-low notes, so it's tempting to think he was after a different sound. But there isn't such extreme key evidence in the Beethoven op 61. And there are plenty of other bits of C in his work: do you believe that these are all deliberate choices driven by sound rather than convenience of key signature? It would be nice to know if Beethoven was ever recorded saying anything on this matter.
(3) You criticise my description of the C clarinet sound as "biting". Well, fair enough: any clarinet can be made to vary its sound in this respect to a wide extent. And we're not talking about a one-dimensional attribute. But I don't withdraw the statement entirely. A C seems to me to have a natural sound that has an element of Eefer-ness added to the warmth of the larger instruments. And while you can play it quite sweetly if desired, it's surely going slightly against its nature (for a much more extreme case in the same direction, imagine the Brahms quintet on an Eb). But maybe I need a better C.
(4) You also seem to reject any suggestion that being unwilling to play on a cold instrument should be a factor in musical choices. I still disagree with this. Yes you can prepare for the switch in various ways, but never with 100% certainty. Are you really saying you've never once done a change and found you had to fight a bit to get the tuning as good as it was beforehand? I certainly know recordings of top players where you can hear when they've changed and not adjusted perfectly. An episode of poor tuning is too high a price to pay for a subtle change in tone colour that you might mostly be able to achieve by sticking on a single instrument.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-09-27 15:51
For what its worth, I play C, Eb, A, Bb and Bass. Somewhere down the road I do want a D. (and dream of a basset!) They all have their own personalities, and I really enjoy those differences. As far as the C is concerned, in my case, I love the warm, sweet sound, and look forward to playing on it, whenever possible! Current line up for an upcoming concert includes Schubert's Symphony 3, with the C very prominently featured in the second movement, and Rossini's La Scala Di Seta, written for C. Absolutely love the use of the C in these pieces.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
Post Edited (2016-09-27 16:25)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 19:02
On Beethoven's (and Mozart's) reasons for using different instruments, my extremely limited experience with "Mozart clarinets" makes it seem reasonable that they both would have found the results of writing the parts for a piece in Eb for Bb rather than A clarinets more satisfactory, even if they really preferred the sound of the A for that piece, because of the way most players would have sounded playing in that many flats. Which is certainly not to say that they never made the decision based on the sound they wanted. I've read that when Haydn first conducted in London, he had to ask the tympani player to let the mallet come off the drumhead rather than leaving it there when he played a single note, so the standards of playing probably weren't what we expect now even in professional groups in big cities.
With period vs. modern instruments, we have the same considerations of aesthetical ethics that pianists do. There are things one can do on a Bösendorfer that one cannot do on a Broadwood, and many great soloists tend to want to do them. It can't really be answered one way or the other and it's very nice that we have opportunities to hear both views realized very well. A Vivaldi trio sonata played passionately by wind players on modern instruments can sound hugely exciting, and it's hard to imagine Vivaldi would have disapproved, even though the oboes, flutes and bassoons of the time really couldn't have pulled that kind of thing off.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 19:29
John,
First of all, before going on with your other points, allow me to say in response to your (1) that my remark about "low intellectual level" wasn't directed at you. It was a response to the 'argument' here:Quote:
In several recent performance of Berlin Phil, they all played Beethoven No.9 in B and A clarinets. I guess if top orchestras accept the fact that C clarinet is not really necessary, then there is really no need to argue we must play Beethoven 1, 5 and 9 using C clarinet for certain part (also Schubert Great etc.) ...and what I said was, if that's the level of the discussion, then the debate is over.
In your (2), you say:Quote:
I think you are asserting that Beethoven did choose the C clarinet in op 61 on grounds of sound, but can you clarify the argument? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Beethoven wrote the slow movement for clarinet in C, Beethoven is a composer whom I choose to obey if I can, and there's an end to what I can contribute to the matter. Neither you nor I can know what Beethoven's reasons were, and I for one am not tempted to second-guess someone of his stature.
But of course there is more to say. As performers we are free to do whatever we like; and that's why I don't condemn your use of the A clarinet in the slow movement. The classic dilemma that confronts us is expressed very well by Charles Rosen when he writes:Quote:
"It is the moral duty of a performer to choose what he thinks is the musically superior version, whatever the composer's clearly marked intention--it is also the moral responsibility of a pianist to try to convince himself that the composer knew what he was doing." What people typically do in this situation is try to justify their coming down on one side or the other, saying things like, "well, Beethoven was very careless," or, "wasn't he deaf or something," or, "he wasn't a clarinet player"...
What they should do is to say, yes, you're right, it should be on a C clarinet. On this occasion, however, the church was freezing cold/my C clarinet didn't have a good enough reed on it/I don't HAVE a C clarinet/...
...so I CHOSE not to obey Beethoven's explicit instructions.
That way, you get to make a moral choice, and take responsibility for it, instead of indulging in flights of fancy which amount to nothing more than excuses.
In your (3) you seem to suggest that C and Eb clarinets have a particular nature in and of themselves. But what playing on a particular instrument does is to make available a range of possible sounds that differs from the range of possible sounds available on another. It's up to the player to play in a way that is appropriate to the circumstances.
Notice, by the way, the different scorings of this tune as the movement goes on: clarinet plus high strings/bassoon plus low strings/tutti forte strings with wind interjections/pizzicato piano strings plus violin decorations of the melody. You want to keep the sorbet distinct from the chocolate ice...
In your (4) you write:Quote:
You also seem to reject any suggestion that being unwilling to play on a cold instrument should be a factor in musical choices. No, I hope I've made it clear that under some circumstances I might play the movement on the 'wrong' clarinet. But I would there be responding to a particular situation, not making a general argument.
I like to say that this sort of thing, going along with Rosen's formulation, constitutes a 'moral' choice. Sometimes people misunderstand that, and think I am saying that it's 'immoral' to play on a different clarinet.
But that's not it at all. What I'm saying tries to go beyond the notion that 'morality' consists of obeying rules. That's just automaticity. You make a moral choice when you accept that there are plausible reasons for both alternatives, and YOU get to choose between them.
Tony
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Author: patrica
Date: 2016-09-27 21:48
It is really commendable that Tony tries so hard to obey Beethoven. I recall one of my friends, who is a Beethoven enthusiast, once told me he never likes any British orchestra playing Beethoven and his reason is that they simply do not have the basic required personality...... I know this is certainly too extreme.
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2016-09-27 23:19
I never remembered having a fast change problem there - what edition are you looking at?
I have the full score book by Dover. The measures, are not marked so I won't be counting them but I am sure there is no time to change between Bb and A at the beginning of the vocal recitative. The chance to change is too fast for even superman. Some posters seem to not have a problem and plenty of time. This leads me to believe that some of the clarinet bars are being omitted to give time for a change to A.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 23:29
There's a fairly well-known recording of Furtwängler, Menuhin, and the Philharmonia doing the Beethoven. Personality didn't seem to hold them back any. Don't know which clarinets they played in the slow movement, though.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-09-27 23:38
In the last movement, there is a switch from Bb to A, with 72 bars of rest before the swap at measure 164. Swap back to Bb at measure 339, with 18 bars of rest (including 2 Grand Pauses). Swap to the A at measure 602, with 69 bars of rest before.
I think you'll have time!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-28 00:53
Though I thought that the exchange about Op 61 was worthwhile, I have to say I thought that the original post was rubbish.
Why didn't 'MoonPatrol' investigate the issue further, before making his post? Why didn't he listen to the piece, even?
And, you're so POLITE to him.
Tony
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-09-28 03:14
Well, for that matter, I have to assume that Glenn saw the change he asked about SOMEwhere or misread something he saw in a standard edition. He described the spot well enough. It was just that there was no instrument change where he seemed to see one. I try in most cases to give the benefit of the doubt that something reasonable prompted the question.
Being polite isn't a bad thing.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-09-28 03:44
>> Being polite isn't a bad thing. >>
No; but going on and on being polite, when what he needs to do is just wake up, is unnecessary.
Look how long it took – and that we still don't really know whether he got it.
Tony
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2016-10-01 08:18
I have found the switch to the A clarinet that occurs well before the 2nd "fanfare of terror". It happens in the vicinity of 'Allegro assai". I was looking for the call-out in the wrong place. It appears, in my edition, above the staff, "Clarinetti in A". Here, there IS plenty of time to put down the Bb and switch over. At this point it rides on to the end of the piece on the A clarinet.
In my edition I also found a misprint in the key signature! It has one flat at the beginning of the Presto. The strings also have one flat there...hence a red flag. The A clarinet should be natural in the key signature. It picks up a flat at the next key change.
As for Beethoven, and his use of the C clarinet for the 2nd movement, I would not leave it up to chance that he wrote it for convenience. His use of instrumentation has always been designed with intention. The sounds from all the instruments he was exposed to were well retained before his world of not hearing began. The clarinet is close to the oboe and flute throughout the second movement, and doesn't stick out or solo. A "C" would make sense given it is a supportive element in this part.
My question was based on a desire to see what is required of the clarinets in this symphony from a "driver's seat view". A community orchestra is playing this piece in 2017 and I am on their backup list for clarinet. It is very, very unlikely that I would be contacted, but like winning the lottery, it is possible. I don't even have an A clarinet or C for that matter.
A lot of you pro players preach about the value of transposing, but if I was putting energy to getting the notes in place, I would not be able to put energy into actual music making. I don't think it was meant to be a trick or mathematical exercise when blowing the air. Y'all can probably do it almost seamlessly but I don't and can't. What about standing up for yourself and asking the librarian or band to get you a proper copy? We musicians get pushed around and abused without even knowing it! Not being paid to play gives you a bit of power to say no and after 20+ years of playing, I still don't see any way to make $$ with the clarinet. Thanks for all the thorough answers, Glenn
Post Edited (2016-10-01 08:23)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-10-01 19:37
Not been paid to play in a long time, but that shouldn't matter. The standard should always be to figure out how the piece should sound, and come as close to that as you can. Transposing is good for general musicianship, though, as are clefs. Traditional European training tended to have everyone learn clefs, and also frequently involved some score reading where you'd transpose. Opens up a whole lot of really great music, especially for us amateurs who can't always get into the playing situations we'd like. Viola parts can be quite liberating.
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The Clarinet Pages
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