 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2016-08-23 06:28
Looking at a clarinet, currently on that auction site, that does not have a crow's foot for the C/F key. The only instruments that I know of that are built that way are the later 1010s and the Eatons. This is clearly NOT one of those. The auction lists the brand as "Selmer", but I suspect that is only because it has an old Selmer mouthpiece. I can not make out the logo in the pictures and it is listed simply as "Vintage Wood Clarinet Original Reeds Needs Reconditioning Shabby Original Case". It also is incorrectly listed as a "Öhler/German System".
What other clarinet makers did not use the crow's foot mechanism?
John
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-08-23 17:34
You can get a Schwenk & Seggelke Boehm system with or without a crow's foot. After playing 1010s, I'd definitely recommend without.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2016-08-23 20:37
Sorry for the change of subject, but Chris, where on earth do you get all the fabulous photos of top grade clarinets that you show ? I am sure we are all jealous !
Alan
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-08-23 23:01
I want one of those Marigaux!
I was looking at a friend's oboe one time and wondering why they didn't put adjustment screws on the clarinet. I thought of installing screws through the crow's foot for adjustment, but that's just awesome. Even on the levers!
We ought to start a campaign to get rid of the crow's foot. Usually I'm a traditionalist kind of guy, but the present set-up is lousy.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2016-08-23 23:02)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-23 23:18
Alan - you'll find loads of photos of all manner of clarinets and mechanisms on Steve Sklar's site: http://www.clarinetperfection.com/
B&H 1010 and Peter Eaton clarinets have half good/half bad linkages - the good half being the E/B-F/C linkage arm with the adjusting screw that closes the F/C pad cup. The same linkage arm is found on other clarinets that either have no crows foot or half a crows foot.
The bad half is the sliding linkage that couples the F#/C# key with the F/C key. There's no adjustment on it and the adjustment is made by doing some bending, plus fitting the linkage on the F/C key with a low friction material so it slides smoothly. Good idea, but usually bad in practice.
On the 1010 it can be disastrous as the key rods are all hollow and the rod screws are only their full width at either end and much narrower for most of their length in between the ends. So if you bend a key barrel, it won't be supported on the inside by the rod screw if the rod screw was the same diameter all the way along its length, so the key barrel can collapse if the bend is severe and you'll have trouble extracting the rod screw.
Much better is have the rod screw the same diameter all the way along its length and fitting it properly - it's done on large members of the flute and oboe family, so no reason why it can't be (or couldn't have been) applied to the 1010. Peter Eatons have point screws as you'd expect to find on most clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-08-24 00:18
Sounds to me like the guy who said he avoided arthritis pain by taking an ice cold shower every morning. To which his friend replied, "Oh, you have cold showers instead".
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-08-24 01:38)
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2016-08-24 07:02
Attachment: clarinetnocrowsfoot.jpg (46k)
Went back to take another look at this instrument and it was sold on a "best offer accepted" basis. So someone got an interesting project for less than $88 including shipping. I think I am glad someone else bought it. Though I was very curious as to what it was, I really don't need another project clarinet.
Attached the best picture from the listing. The logo on the upper joint is barely visible.
Post Edited (2016-08-24 07:06)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-08-24 10:55
I'll let you know when it arrives. I couldn't let a curiosity like that go by, so I made a somewhat lower offer which was accepted. Hopefully it should arrive here in Oz in a couple of weeks. There is an oval logo on the lower joint which looks a bit Selmerish. Who knows? Watch this space.
Tony F.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-08-24 17:15
Chris,
"The bad half is the sliding linkage that couples the F#/C# key with the F/C key. There's no adjustment on it and the adjustment is made by doing some bending, plus fitting the linkage on the F/C key with a low friction material so it slides smoothly. Good idea, but usually bad in practice."
What do you bend? After about 45 minutes of messing with corks, contact cement and sand paper, I got my Bb back into reasonable adjustment after noticing it was clattering and requiring too much pressure, but of course cork can compress over time. Still, a lot of the downside of the crow's foot is that it encourages quick adjustment by bending keys.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-24 17:52
I bend either the entire F/C key or the lever on the F#/C# key to regulate it whichever is easier. Once you have a gap between the sliding linkages of around 0.5mm, then use thin rubco/tech cork faced with Teflon, or rubco coated with graphite to make it slippery. The last thing you want are thick corks everywhere - B&H did that and it all felt mushy.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2016-08-24 18:50
Excellent, Tony! I am glad it was someone here that snatched it up. Will be looking forward to getting a full report. Hope it is a great find and turns out to be something excellent, but even at worst, for that price it will be an interesting oddity.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-24 18:59
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,5057/clarinetnocrowsfoot.jpg
It looks like it might have some sort of sliding linkage connecting the F#/C# key with the F/C key going by the bevelled key piece on the F#/C# key barrel (doubling as a spring catch).
The lack of a crows foot means the RH cluster can be made with very narrow gaps between the touchpieces (especially the F#/C# and E/B touches). Most clarinets will need more of a gap so the crows foot doesn't foul against the sides of either touchpieces which will cause the F/C key to be noisy at best or to catch the sides at worst.
Selmer USA and Leblanc clarinets have a considerably large gap between the lower level RH pinky touchpieces which doesn't look all that pleasing when others aim to keep the gap minimal by having a thin wire 'leg' on the crows foot. But that can bend through use if it's very thin.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-24 23:59
Attachment: linkages.jpg (341k)
Attached is a photo showing the early Buffet Elite with two arms and the Howarth S1 with one arm and half a crows foot.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2016-08-25 01:54
Matt74 said "I thought of installing screws through the crow's foot for adjustment" - which is exactly the arrangement on my Patricola C clarinet, and it works a treat. If you must have a crow's foot (and as an Eaton and previously 1010 player I've generally managed to avoid them) it's the way to go!
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-08-25 01:56
Interesting: all the S1's I've seen have two arms, like the S2. The only instrument I've ever seen with one arm and half a crow was the Selmer 10G. Is that S1 particularly early?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-25 02:58
The S1 is from the early '90s - the S2 was its successor sometime later on in the '90s. The S3 from around 2000 has a narrower bore than the S2 (14.65mm as opposed to 14.75mm of the S1 and S2).
The Leblanc OpusII had plastic adjusting screws on the crows foot, but they were often loose in there so were more of a hindrance than a help. A stable adjustment is very easy to achieve on a normal, solid form crows foot.
While I see a lot of bodge-up jobs where people have stuck all manner of things to the crows foot or sanded the cork down on it (so the cork is different thicknesses either side), there's no need to do that to get the adjustment right.
More often than not the F/C touchpiece has been bent down and put the E/B-F/C link out of adjustment. Most likely cause is using a soft sided case and overloading the pocket on the lid which puts pressure on the keywork and especially the F/C touch as that's the highest point on the instrument. The other cause is holding the joints incorrectly during assembly/disassembly and bending the keys.
So to set it up, first get the undersides of the F#/C# and E/B touchpieces level, then bend the crows foot so it has an equal gap on both sides or makes contact with both of them at the same time and with a uniform thickness of your preferred silencing material glued to it (I use ultrasuede to keep mechanical noise to a minimum) and then its a case of regulating things and setting the ventings by bending the keywork accordingly.
And make sure the action of the LH F/C key is also nice and snappy instead of being mushy or having any lost motion - keep the silencing materials thin and also use rubco as its hard wearing (unlike natural cork). Howarth S2 and S3 clarinets had an adjusting screw on the LH F/C key foot with the screw tip making contact with a rubco disc glued to the body to set the adjustment precisely.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-08-25 04:05
I have a Rudolph Uebel Bb with screw adjustments on the crows foot, and I once had a Bliss that had them. The keywork on the Bliss was flimsy and needed constant adjustment, so it really needed them.
Tony F.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-09-15 04:29
Attachment: DSCN1662.JPG (362k)
Attachment: DSCN1661.JPG (360k)
Attachment: DSCN1660.JPG (372k)
Well, the mystery clarinet finally arrived. Took a long time, it must have gone by the tourist route. The maker is Harry Pedler of Elkhart, although the bell seems to be non-original and is labelled Soeur Robert, Paris. No mention of them in Langwills. The Harry Pedler logo dates it as between 1919 and 1930, but I haven't found a serial number yet. The body/bell/barrel material is hard rubber, and the quality appears to be very good. At some time the key cups have been varnished. The mouthpiece is a hard rubber Selmer labelled "Table A". Attached are some pics of the crows foot area.
Tony F.
Post Edited (2016-09-15 07:42)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2020-06-14 08:56
The Harry Pedler mentioned above went into my "To do one day when I have time" pile. It has finally worked its way to the top and I'm in the process of restoring it. The keywork is nickel-silver, well-used but well maintained and the pads were brown leather. So far I'm impressed with the quality of the keywork. It shows evidence of being hand-finished. The body is hard rubber and well made. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Tony F.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-06-14 17:33
Very curious how it comes out. I also have a Harry Pedler with the eliminated crow’s foot, but it has a broken middle socket so it’s been sitting in my junk box. If it’s a good player I’ll definitely take the time to replace the socket.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-06-14 18:53
That's similar to the B&H 1010 (and Peter Eaton) crow footless design, but better in that it has an adjusting screw on both linkages instead of a sliding one for the F#/C# link which is a pain to regulate. I've added an adjusting screw to this link on some Peter Eatons to make it easier to regulate.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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