 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2016-08-19 22:42
I have an old Albert clarinet that I want to refurbish. The keys are cast and are nearly perfectly flat, not cupped as in current keys. I need to find out how to get, and fit, these types of pads. Will I have to make them myself? How were they designed originally? Thank you.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-19 23:27
I'm not sure, but what I can tell you is that with cork pads, a good repairman can fit them and carve them to give you a good seal. After that, they will last forever! Obviously, you won't be able to customize leather, synthetic or bladder pads.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-08-19 23:41
Many standard bladder (skin) pads have a flat-topped backing board and should work fine in your flat cups.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-08-19 23:44
Flat key cup bases are not uncommon and were for instance used on virtually all B&H models.
Fitting pads to these cups is essentially no different than to the more common slightly conical cups and they can be floated in using your preferred type of adhesive, you probably need to use a little less glue though..
In my experience fitting cork pads to the flat cups is actually easier as long as you know how to handle and shape cork pads.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-19 23:46
When the pad cups are level (parallel) with the toneholes, how much of a gap is there? That's called the 'set' and is where equal amount of pad shows all around the side of the pad cup when the pad is correctly seated and level.
For Albert/simple systems, you're best using leather pads.
You can get different thickness leather pads from 2.5mm to the standard thickness which is 3mm - I think there are also leather pads by either Chanu or Glotin that are 2mm thick which may be better if the pad cups aren't all that deep and the set is on the thin side.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2016-08-20 14:07
if the pads aren't only flat but also shallow, you may go for Oboe pads which are thinner than normal.
--
Ben
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-08-20 15:41
I wouldn't recommend cork pads without examining the tone hole rims under magnification and insuring that there is minimal key play.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-08-20 16:27
"if the pads aren't only flat but also shallow, you may go for Oboe pads which are thinner than normal.
--
Ben"
I used oboe pads on a G. Rudolph Ueber clarinet, which has smaller pads than any other Bb clarinet I've ever seen, with less lift. When I bought it, standard pads were fitted and it was out of tune and stuffy, but after I repadded it with thin oboe pads it played and tuned well. Some of the oboe pads were actually too thin, so I backed them with cardboard discs.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-20 21:41
I just measured the thickness of the various leather pads I have - they range in thickness from 3.5mm (Pisoni), 3mm (Glotin), 2.5mm (Glotin) and 2mm (Martin Chanu).
The 2mm ones are used on Marigaux oboes - the pad cups being filled level with shellac and the pads floated on the surface, so sitting flush with the pad cups instead of being sunk into them.
If you've got sheet cork of varying thicknesses, then use them as a gauge to see which thickness is best, then order pads of that thickness.
The reason why I'm championing leather pads for use on clarinets is they are more forgiving and can take into account any minor nicks or chips in the tonehole rims due to the nature of the leather.
But in every case, always aim to tidy up any toneholes that are damaged and level them to be sure pads will seat successfully on them. Your repadding work will only be as good as the toneholes they seat onto - especially when using cork pads where you have to tart up both the face of the cork pads and the toneholes to remove any blemishes for a perfect seal.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2016-08-20 22:53
Thank you for the information. I have already leveled the tone holes and was just waiting to see how I wanted to pad the instrument. I will use my cork sheets, as you recommended, determine the thickness is that I need and give it a shot.
John
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-20 23:02
How shallow are the pad cups? Can you post some photos so we can see what you're having to deal with.
If there's a lot of metal, you can grind out the insides to increase the depth - I do this on some older oboes with cast pad cups where the insides aren't completely smooth (but still leave them a bit rough but even inside to help the shellac key onto them).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2016-08-21 00:51
Funny you say that. I started that very thing a short while ago. Was hoping it would make whatever pad was chosen more secure. I found it was tough grinding those old cast keys.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-21 01:23
Some older Heckel bassoons have really shallow cast pad cups which are left rough inside from the casting or grinding. You'd have thought for such a top name, their keywork would be far better finished with the undersides of keys all nice and tidy instead of being left with file marks. Even Amati contras have proper machined pad cups instead of castings and they're the least expensive contras on the market.
I know the undersides of keys don't have to look good as they're neither seen nor in contact with the player's fingers, but they can at least look neat and tidy. Some key makers in the past have made the undersides of their keys look just as good as the top sides and even file bevels and other decorative features on the undersides of touchpieces and other pieces - compare an older Buffet clarinet from the '50s with one from the '90s and you'll see a marked difference. Buffet use a lot of castings on their clarinets now.
Casting techniques have got a lot better now they use a much better casting medium (I think it's a very fine grained Plaster of Paris or something very similar) and some pieces or entire keys cast as one piece don't need much prep work doing to them to get them to a good finish. Whereas the old sand cast keys and parts needed a lot of filing to get a good finish (before papering up, polishing and plating) which often left things looking uneven, wavy or thin and razor sharp in places.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-08-21 19:01
Second the suggestion of B&H leather pads. They're relatively thin with flat backs and they last forever. Dawkes has them in lots of diameters. I bought a bunch just in case, but the ones that came on the instruments in 1984 still hold a great vacuum.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-08-21 21:20
Just speculating, but maybe they left them rough because they were using shellac. I'm guessing shellac could come out of a smooth cup pretty fast with changes in temperature, whereas if it were rough it would hold better.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-21 21:40
It does indeed - I've had instances of pads coming adrift from the cleaned out pad cups when left in a cold environment.
So now when replacing pads I'll only clean out the pad cups if hot glue has been used as I hate that stuff with a passion - it sticks and burns skin. I've just remade a bass clarinet bell key and the pad was installed with a lot of hot glue and the bugger stuck to me when I removed it. And it's not easy to clean out from pad cups either as it goes all stringy and is really sticky stuff.
If shellac has previously been used, then leave a thin coating of it in the pad cups instead of cleaning them out completely - while the pad cups are still hot, wipe the majority of the old shellac out with paper towels. Fresh shellac will take to it well provided the original shellac hasn't been cooked.
Only if the keys are being replated should you clean out all traces of shellac by wiping out while hot and then cleaning the remaining shellac out with alcohol. Otherwise the plating won't take to the insides of the pad cups which could end up with flaking.
While some people are absolutely dead against it, scratching up the insides of empty pad cups that are smooth to roughen them up will help with adhesion when using shellac. At least one of the top French oboe makers recommends this. Use a sharp scriber and scratch in opposing directions on the insides of the pad cups. No-one is going to see it, so it's hardly a problem. Plus priming clean pad cups with a thin layer of shellac before installing pads will help too - like warming up a frying pan and adding lard before frying pancakes, but on a much smaller scale.
Unlike Buffet who used to roughen up the undersides of keys and touchpieces before sticking cork to them and some people roughen up or remove the lacquer on sax crooks when replacing the crook corks. There's no need for that when using modern contact adhesives - just degrease the surface well before applying the adhesive. Scratching up the lacquer will only be bad for the sax in the long term as moisture will get in under the lacquer and the adhesive can react with the bare brass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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