 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2016-08-17 03:35
Why does almost every other clarinet have an low Eb key but the Bb does not?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-08-17 03:52
Several reasons:
•concert Db is not an extremely common scale/note, and we already have A clarinets to cover that extra note.
•Added complexity
•Added weight
•Clarinetists don't like change. We've been playing the same Boehm system clarinets for more than a century and a half. Why change now?
To be fair I'm not saying clarinets shouldn't have any extra low notes, in fact i built a clarinet that goes all the way to low C just for the heck of it:
http://imgur.com/a/DyazP
-Jdbassplayer
Post Edited (2016-08-17 03:53)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-17 04:25
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The low Eb key isn't just for playing a written low Eb - it can come in very useful as an alternative to throat A#/Bb so you can stay in the upper register longer, match the tone colour much better and get a much smoother B to A# or C to Bb slur.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-08-17 17:52
Low Eb also allows the low E and the Middle B to vent from a proper tonehole rather than the bell end. This keeps the sound much more consistent with the adjacent notes and in my experience makes the B easier to play..
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-08-17 18:49
Bb Bass clarinets have a low Eb key because Wagner wrote for bass in A, and he frequently called for the low E in his many bass solos.
The low Eb is unnecessary on the Bb unless you transpose parts for A clarinet on it, as some Italian players do, or used to do. I've played through the Mozart Quintet and Concerto on Bb, reading down a half step. It's a fascinating exercise, but the mismatch in tone colors from, one note to the next means I wouldn't come close to considering to performing them on a Bb clarinet with a low Eb.
Contrary to Chris's experience, I've never played a Bb with a low Eb on which the clarion low Bb was even close to in tune or a match in color for the adjacent notes.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-17 20:45
I can't see any reason why using the low Eb as an upper A#/Bb shouldn't match the upper register notes in tone quality when an A clarinet's upper register B is the same pitch note using the same length of tube and issuing directly from the bell.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2016-08-18 01:45
Jdbassplayer:
Bravo on your Bb soprano clarinet with range to down to C. Since some of the lower clarinets go down to C, I've been wondering why someone doesn't make a soprano that goes to C. This gives it the same bottom note as a C Melody sax.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-08-18 19:18
Chris -
I'm not sure about cylindrical large-bore designs such as the B&H 1010, but at least on small-bore clarinets such as the Buffet R13, the bore has a significant expansion beginning below the tone hole for the right ring finger and continuing through the end of the bell, with a choke near the top of the bell.
Lengthening the bore by adding a low Eb key changes the geometry of the bore, adding a cylindrical or modestly expanding conical section above the bell. It also moves the bell choke lower, significantly changing its reflection of vibration back up the bore.
In my experience, lengthening the bottom of the bore interferes with the carefully designed shape of the bore that permits a good low E and the B above it. I've tried wrapping strips of newspaper around the bottom tenon so that the bell just barely holds on, giving an approach to low Eb, but doing so spoiled the tone, giving a "fonky" inferior bass clarinet sound, and the Bb above was even worse.
As I said, every medium- or small-bore full-Boehm Bb clarinet I've played had an unusable middle Bb above the low Eb, badly out of tune and with a beginner-type tone. To make a low-Eb Bb clarinet with a usable middle Bb would require redesign of the bore.
The early low-C extensions for the A clarinet, used for the Mozart Concerto, had a very distinct change in tone, from soprano to bass clarinet, beginning on the low Eb. This seems to me to be due to the change to a cylindrical or modestly-expanding bore for the basset notes. The only recording I've heard where the basset notes retain the soprano color is by Sabine Meyer. I assume her lower joint was extensively reworked to blend the tone color.
At least for me, even if I played a full-Boehm Bb (and I came close to buying one once), I would never use the clarion low Bb except where the note went by too fast to hear.
YMMV, but I think theory must yield to practice.
Ken Shaw
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-08-18 20:07
Ken Shaw-
Would you by chance know where I could find a picture of these early extended A clarinets? I'm curious as to how they were constructed.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-08-18 20:33
Ken, In my understanding the shape of the lower joint expansion is there primarily to counter the end effect of the open bell which reacts differently in the lower register to the clarinet register. Without it the intonation change between low E and clarion B would be even more wildly out.
Of course it has other effects as well but these are more incidental.
On cylindrical instruments like the flute where the lowest section of bore is only ever used to produce a fundamental in the lowest rgister no flare at all is required.
The large bore 1010 and simlar instruments always have flare but this is designed to work with their specific bore proportions so are not neccessarliy same as a narrow bore flare.
On a low Eb clarinet the bore is calculated to take into account the total length of the clarinet and so will be differentley sized and lower positioned than on a normal low E instrument even of the same brand / model. So experiments by trying just to lengthen your normal instrument by pulling out or adding bits aren't entirely valid.
If you inspect the bore of the Buffet Tosca you will see that they continue with an almost cylindrical bore right down into the bell. But they need the correction key to make it work.
On most bass clarinets to low C the bore remains cylindrical right down to the bell i.e. it is in same category as the flute mentioned above.
Just to confound matters I have a B&H Imperial bass clarinet to low C with a removable section that also allows it to be played as a low Eb when required.
It has a typical Boehm type flare above the low E tone hole yet the extension for low C reverts to a parallel bore. In spite of this it is one of the nicest sounding and in tune bass clarinets I have come across.
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Author: mmatisoff
Date: 2016-08-19 03:16
It was uncomfortable at first. Then one day, I hit it Serendipitously, and now I'm using it more frequently. It's a little trying, much like the right pinkie bottom most key. But when it works, it works great.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-08-19 06:25
Jdbassplayer -
I think Rendall or Baines has pictures of a basset A as it was first implemented. The recording of the Mozart Concerto by Hans Rudolf Stalder is one of the earliest -- perhaps the first. The extension was separate and grafted on to the lower joint, usually permanently to let the key levers be single pieces. Externally, they look like any other extended clarinet. such as the one Martin Fröst plays for the Mozart Concerto.
Since the discovery of the drawing of Stadler's instrument, every serious originalist has gone to that design. Steve Fox's site has good photos of his version.
Ken Shaw
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2016-08-19 06:47
If I write a concerto for clarinet that goes down to low Bb will some clarinet maker make that clarinet?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2016-08-19 13:17
I have an Amati Klaslice ACL 605 which is a full Boehm and it makes an excellent Bb with the low Eb key. I find though that you usually have to vent it a little by opening the side Ab/G# key.
I also have the full Boehm Amati A Clarinet and get the same good results with this note.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2016-08-19 14:25)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-08-19 23:49
Hi Derf, I think the answer would be - it depends on how good your concerto is.....
If you write another "Mozart" then the world will want to play it and makers will respond.
So get composing.
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2016-08-20 02:31
I have the Amati 615 full Boehm and with the music we play it comes in handy and sounds pretty good, I don't have to vent it though
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2016-08-25 15:22
derf5585 wrote:
> If I write a concerto for clarinet that goes down to low Bb
> will some clarinet maker make that clarinet?
>
I've you can afford it I'm sure you'll be able to find someone who'll make it.
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