 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-07-28 23:19
Buffet and to a lesser extent, Selmer, sometimes bring out a new model clarinet which is a recent, improved version of an older model that has gone extinct. Were you to do this, what "extinct" clarinet would you choose? I have in mind clarinets that are neither Selmers nor Buffets. The company I work for would be interested in bringing out a refurbished version of a legendary clarinet that has disappeared.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-07-29 06:56
The old bassoon shaped bass clarinets. Seems like they would be much more compact.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-29 07:00
Likewise with a Selmer CT or BT copy.
... and Series 9.
Also it would be nice if more players were open to the concept and extras that full Boehms offer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2016-07-29 09:57)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-07-29 08:10
I'd love to see a "new-build" B&H Imperial 926 or 1010 Symphony.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-29 09:56
"I'd love to see a "new-build" B&H Imperial 926 or 1010 Symphony."
They already exist in the Peter Eaton International and Elite, but not sure for how much longer.
Also the 1010 bore/tonehole layout is being used by Rossi in their English bore model.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-07-29 10:34
Selmer Centered Tone for me, please.
How much of a deposit is required to pre-order?
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2016-07-29 11:25
A big bore Leblanc, which still not a 'jazz horn'. I vote for the Leblanc LL full Boehm without low Eb.
Mark
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-07-29 13:04
URSA: I must insist on the fact that we can't, and wouldn't, copy anything having been built by Buffet or Selmer. Once we have chosen an old clarinet to copy, it would take us considerable time to improve it; especially in terms of intonation. People weren't so picky about intonation in the past. They reckoned that it was up to the clarinetist to play any instrument in tune by covering a quarter of a hole here; lifting a key there, tightening your embouchure, etc..
The best thing to copy would probably be the clarinet of a long-gone, craftsman of genius.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-07-29 15:14
Greetings,
I have owned several Leblanc clarinets and still have an L200 from the early 1980s as my backup. The intonation is perfect and it is a beautifully crafted instrument. These instruments are somewhat rare and built like tanks. I have the beautiful original case and the warranty card. Tom Ridenour (he may have been responsible for some of this design) said that many L200s were re-bored which ruined them; I evidently have one that was not.
HRL
Post Edited (2016-07-29 20:50)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-07-29 16:40
Selmer CT, though I'm skeptical that the intonation could be 'improved.' I tend to think such improvements would likely amount to a re-voicing of the CT design to be more in line with current instruments, thus negating the whole point of playing a CT.
One of the main reasons for playing an old Selmer, for me, is the flexibility the player has in terms of intonation adjustment. The instrument, if played properly, has a tremendous range of colors and an ability to be voiced in many ways. Locking in the intonation or the tone quality, as we see other makers moving towards and achieving, destroys that flexibility. It'd be like putting frets on a violin.
I've increasingly come to the opinion that 'perfect' intonation (if it exists in any clarinet in any meaningful way) always comes at a cost of flexibility. You're narrowing the range of expression on each note you lock in. Wurlitzers seem to accomplished a balance of this well, when you've got one that's well in tune. They tend to have a range of expressive quality that is exceptional...but not quite as much as the old Selmers. True, they're locked in...but the point of playing an old Selmer is to unlock those things which are locked on others (at least for me).
A few years back, I made the decision to play the CT rather than my Fritz Wurlitzers. The FWs were incredible...still are...maybe the most purely beautiful instrumental sound I might make...but they didn't have enough 'ugly' to them when I wanted it, and that's like cutting out a whole realm of human experience. I don't think clarinet makers these days are thinking broadly enough when it comes to stuff like that...
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-07-29 16:50
"The old bassoon shaped bass clarinets. Seems like they would be much more compact."
Or better, a bass clarinet shaped like a rackett, where everything's in a canister with the bell coming out of the top, sort of like a hookah or a very small vacuum cleaner.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-07-29 18:33
Hank: Thank you for the information! I had never heard of Leblanc L200s, let alone tried one. If they were made in the early 80s, that was before Ridenour's time with the company. When you said they were rebored, which ruined them; I presume that would have been done in the US by Vito. Thus, if I could find one in France, it would be like yours. A big if! It may have been made exclusively for the US market and therefore not available here in France. Similarly, it is well-nigh impossible to find a Buffet R13 here in France.
Eric: On the other hand, Selmer Centre-toned are still to be found. I'll have to try one. The only trouble is that Selmer wouldn't take kindly to being copied and they're right down the road and we need to keep them happy (-very nice people, they are). You make an interesting point about getting the clarinet in tune to the point of making it lose its soul. This hasn't fallen on deaf ears. It's like pasteurizing camembert: you kill the germs, but the flavor into the bargain. Unfortunately, clarinetists these days want a clarinet that is the equivalent of a Clavinova piano.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-07-29 18:47
Whoa---good point about Selmer being your neighbors! Yeah, I can see how that might get awkward.
Glad you heard what I was saying about flexibility, etc. I'll follow what you guys are doing with interest.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-07-29 20:40
I really do enjoy my outings with the 1959 Leblanc Dynamic H clarinet. Beautiful, as said - built like a tank, in tune, and a wonderful sound!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-29 21:01
Selmer are hardly likely to remake BT, CT or Series 9 style clarinets, so strike while the iron's hot!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-07-29 21:37
Another idea--there are very few options for players who want a top quality Albert system horn. How about a copy of the old Selmer Albert favored by so many NOLA greats (maybe they'd care less about the Albert being copied)? If not, maybe one of the old Penzel-Mueller Alberts?
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-07-29 21:47
OK, ruben, here's an observation, and a suggestion.
The great wooden instruments of yesteryear that aren't built by Buffet or Selmer are all relatively easy to find today and sell for modest prices--with the notable exception of the Boosey & Hawkes models mentioned above. If I wanted to explore the Couesnon Monopole or Leblanc Dynamic H, for example, I could buy a good used one and have it expertly restored for far less than what a brand-new modernised copy of it would cost.
If you're not going to do a Centered Tone reissue, what would truly interest me is a modern metal clarinet--something that incorporates the best design elements of the metal Silva-Bet, Silver King, Conn, Buescher, Pedler, Noblet, and Moennig instruments.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-29 22:06
I know someone who as of late very much regrets part exchanging his old set of Dynamic-Hs for a set of Concertos when they were only just launched, so he'd probably be at the front of the queue if 15mm bore Leblanc-style clarinets hit the market again.
I like the keywork on the true Leblancs (LL, LX, L7, Dynamic-H, etc.) that had separately mounted Ab/Eb and F/C keys - that goes to making the F/C touchpiece much stronger as it won't have such a long tail section left unsupported and prone to bending as it won't need to be thinned or hollowed out on the underside to clear the Ab/Eb touchpiece tail/key barrel.
Also separately mounted Bb and C trill keys are a good idea (and practice) as that makes them more precise in their action (instead of the telescoping key barrels where the Bb trill key usually has excessive wobble) and on older Leblancs with the separately mounted C#/G# key so the tonehole can be moved above the bore centreline to reduce it getting waterlogged.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-07-29 22:48
Chris P: Thank you! We would/could do this, but only with Selmer's blessing. Question: what is so special about the Selmer series 9 (not a rhetorical question, by the way)? Is not the 10S pretty much the same thing? I played it for a couple of years and thought it was pretty ordinary.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-07-29 22:54
Thank you for your interest, Ursa. The trouble is that we are not equipped to produce metal clarinets. It's a whole different type of production requiring different tools and machinery. Personally, I have no experience of metal clarinets either. A few years ago, I met a doctor who had what has to be one of the world's finest collections of metal clarinets. Some day, I'll traipse out to the distant suburbs of Paris and check out this collection.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-07-29 23:16
How to tell whether a clarinet has been rebored: Thoroughly clean the upper joint with a damp cloth swab. Dry the bore thoroughly. Look down the bore from th top with the joint pointed toward but not directly at a bright light or a window.
The bore should be equally shiny all the way down. If it's less shiny above the register vent, the joint has been rebored.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-29 23:19
The Series 9 is a large bore, straight tonehole clarinet - the bore is narrower than a CT, but nowhere near as small as a 10 or 10S bore.
I personally like the BT, CT and Series 9 as they're what I'm used to playing on. I do have a set of Series 9* which have a smaller bore than the Series 9 and they have undercut toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-07-30 12:23
Dear Friends; Thank all of you for your excellent and, as usual, very well-informed suggestions. I must admit I was expecting suggestions of very old, obscure clarinets from around the thirties. I have in mind makers like the French Robert or Marigaux or some Italian makers maybe. I think we will investigate most seriously the Leblanc L200, L300, L7 option. First of all, Leblanc, as we knew it, no longer exists, so nobody will be put out by our copying one of their clarinets. Second, we were both associated with Leblanc in the golden days of old Leon Leblanc, so all the more reason to make the spirit of this brand live on.
To conclude, I would say that it is impossible to "clone" a clarinet. Everybody uses his own machines; his own techniques, and if you don't possess these machines, you won't come up with something that's exactly like the original. That's why I make clear that we would base our clarinet on an old, no longer existing one, but ours would be considerably different, for better (I hope) or for worse (I hope not!).
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-07-31 09:41
Dear Eric (or to whom it may concern), Is there a "best period" for a Selmer Centered Tone? A shop dealing with used instruments here in France has several, and I'm tempted to buy one (a Centered Tone; not a shop!). What serial numbers do you recommend? Thank you!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-31 10:20
The P series is probably the definitive version - they were being made before what is said to be their official launch year of 1954 (I've owned an N series CT) and the last CTs were probably S series.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-07-31 14:42
Hi Ruben--
The 'best' is always the one that works best for you, isn't it? Very subjective, when you really get down to it. Having said that, of all the CTs I've played, my favorite is a Q-series horn from 1955. I also prefer the model 802 (enhanced Boehm).
My general feeling, as a player, is that the earlier CT models (P series and such) tend to hedge a bit towards the BT in response. They are a little thicker sounding, perhaps more mellow, but also a very slight bit less responsive. By contrast, the later ones (R-series or so) also seem to respond slightly differently--the consistency over the break isn't quite the same. So for me, Q series is the sweet spot.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2016-07-31 17:39)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-07-31 18:14
Eric,
Speaking of Q series CT, I recently acquired a Q series key of A Centered Tone 17/6 and will be doing a complete restoration in the next week or two and then will be offering it for sale.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-31 21:09
The R series CTs had massive pad cups for the lower joint RH F/C, F#/C#, E/B and low Eb keys compared to earlier ones. I was really surprised by this.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-07-31 22:58
Sounds amazing. I'd be very interested in it, except that I already own an R-series A that sounds gorgeous. The only trouble is the response over the break...which I'm always trying to find a way to improve or tweak.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2016-08-01 03:08
I am the lucky owner of a Q series Centered Tone- of all my many clarinets, it's still my favorite. A question about serial numbers- the serial number is stamped on both top and bottom joints and the numbers match- but above the number on the top joint is an asterisk - ( * ). What is the significance of this marking?
Jerry
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-01 05:28
The * signifies an official top joint transplant done by Selmer as the original cracked. One with ** means it's on its third top joint.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2016-08-01 17:52
Thanks, Chris. I am the second owner, having purchased the instrument from the original owner who put it in the closet when he left college. I talked him into selling it to me around 1970 and have played it continuously since then; it still is my favorite, as well as being preferred by my big band mates. I'm no Bennie or Artie, but at least my horn comes close!
Jerry
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Author: DougR
Date: 2016-08-04 02:31
Hi Ruben--
thanks for the post. I'm learning a lot from the responses, too; the Selmer CT seems to have a big constituency here, larger than I might have thought. Also, I've tended to shy away from instruments with intonation issues but MarlboroughMan's post has me rethinking that a bit.
I've been to the JL website and it's fascinating--you seem to be producing instruments in a modestly sized yet economically viable production setup, which is remarkable these days.
You mentioned Robert and Marigaux and some Italian makers, but a fair number of those manufacturers didn't import into the US so they'd be unlikely to have a fan base here, the way the CT does. You seem to indicate that it would be politically impossible to do an exact replica of the CT; too bad, especially if nothing Selmer currently manufacture is at all similar to the CT (in which case my question would be, what's the harm?).
My personal interest might be in an improved Boosey 926 or 1010, possibly with the Acton vent, because it exemplifies the "English sound" and would be an interesting addition to a player's bag of tricks--and, especially if Eaton stops producing instruments, it might (MIGHT) even sell. Also, I wonder if anyone would be interested in a novelty item like a "Johnny Dodds" (for instance) horn--something unique, tied to a unique player, patterned identically to the instrument he played, that would give a clarinetist a distinctly different voice.
(I'm unable to think of another major jazz OR classical player who was associated with a horn not produced by Selmer or Buffet; Pete Fountain and Buddy DeFranco were both Leblanc endorsers; who else is there?)
Anyway, good luck and please post further steps taken!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-08-04 05:17
DougR,
I also often think it's all Selmer, Buffet, and Leblanc, until I consider this:
At least for the last couple of decades of his long career, DeFranco played Yamaha. British soloist Michael Collins has played CSG mocels for some time now, http://uk.yamaha.com/en/artists/brass_woodwinds/michael_collins/, Jerome Voisin of the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France plays a Yamaha CSG III
https://www.yamaha.com/en/ipy/jerome_voisin/, John Yeh has played a Yamaha SEV model with the Chicago Symphony for years, and Romie de Guise-Langlois plays a Yahama SEV https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=BCMF+Beethoven%3A+clarinet+trio. Young Hungarian virtuoso clarinetist/composer plays a new model Yamaha SEV Artist clarinet http://youtube.com/results?search_query=Kohan+Solo+de+Concours+clarinet.
So these are some top notch performers not associated with Selmer, Buffet, or LeBlanc.
Then, speaking of famous players and the clarinets associated with them, there is Ricardo Morales playing his Backun MoBa and a slew of great German and Austrian players, including Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer, Wenzel Fuchs, and A. Ottensamer, playing Oehler system instruments, rather than Selmer, Buffet, or LeBlanc. So I guess there is plenty of room in this world for other brands.
Ruben,
So far the talk has been about bringing back the CT, an instrument many players liked and miss. How about bringing back a clarinet that most people didn't buy but just might have been ahead of its time? I'm thinking of the Buffet Elite. This was a very innovative (and expensive) Buffet model with remarkably thin wooden walls (exactly the opposite of the Selmer Recital), resonators on the lower pads and carbon fiber in the tenons. As I recall, the instrument was super light and very fast (Daphnis was almost easy to play on it) and responsive to the fingers and the tongue. The tone was compact, centered and light as a feather, which didn't appeal to many at the time, but it definitely offered a distinctly different coloration from anything else on the market. The Elite's biggest drawback was that the manufacturing quality didn't match the excellence of the acoustic design. The tenons broke, the screws didn't stay adjusted, and the thing was notoriously hard to repair. But that would not have to be if the best materials were specified, and the right quality controls were in place at the factory and monitored by the testers.
Something to think about.
Post Edited (2016-08-04 18:34)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2016-08-04 08:08
I once had an opportunity to purchase a new Buffet Elite at a very highly discounted price. Ater examining it closely, I decided it was just too delicate to be on a sax doubler's stand. It was ultimately sold to a clarinet teacher and band instructor who plays it to this day. When I asked him to try it out, he said " this thing plays itself" and he bought it on the spot! Worked for him, I guess....
I'm sticking with my tried and true Selmer Q series CT. It works for me.
Jerry
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-04 09:11
Dear Seabreeze, I remember the Buffet Elite well. It was a kind of "anti-" Selmer Récital and was exactly as you so well described it (played itself, rich sonorous sound, etc. Plus the unfortunate fragility that you spoke of). On the other hand, in my experience, its intonation wasn't so good. Users of the instrument that I knew-quite a few-complained of its intonation problems and all stopped using the Elite, including Michel Arrignon, its tester. -a very interesting idea, though. Provided it were, as you suggested, much improved.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-04 09:27
Another clarinet that was around at the same time as the Elite was the Marigaux RS Symphonie which had a lot of innovative keywork design features.
Also as far as older large bore clarinets go, the Louis "Chas Draper Model" was highly regarded, but made in small numbers. I think they may have been based on Martel clarinets from the 1920s.
And the pre-WWII B&H 1010s were also very highly regarded compared to later 1010s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-04 09:30
Dear Doug,
Many thanks for your interest! "Viable" is a slight exaggeration: you have to have a day job if you're to pay the rent and eat three square meals a day. Plus you have to do some subcontracting for other companies. The CT seems to have been primarily a jazz clarinet, though a few Classical players played it. A long time ago, "serious" players just went off large-bore clarinets. Even the German Boehm clarinets don't have a bore anywhere near as large as the old Booseys and Leblanc LL. Nevertheless, the Centered tone gets far and away the most votes on this thread, so deserves some serious looking into, despite my neurotic qualms about copying something from a company that still exists and, fortunately for all of us, is still going strong.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-04 11:28
The thing with the B&H 1010 is they have a very large bore, but have considerably small toneholes compared to a CT which has both a fairly large bore (15mm or .590") but also large toneholes, so a very low resistance and free blowing instrument.
Not so long ago I let a Buffet player try my newly restored BT and he found it was too much for him, especially the top notes which absolutely belted out compared to his Buffet. This is why they are the preferred clarinet for playing out the front of a big band as they don't require a lot of effort to cut through the texture of the whole band playing at full tilt.
I heard of a player who bought a 1010 for use with a big band and soon ditched it as he couldn't hear himself (I made the same mistake with a Buffet S3 solid copper alto sax).
Maybe take measurements from N, P, Q and R series CTs and take the best aspects of all of them combined in the one bore/tonehole configuration.
The biggest hurdle that Howarth and Marigaux faced with their clarinets was the stranglehold Buffet have on the market. So while they made some excellent instruments, far too many people play it safe and stick to the mainstream.
Just a few observations and ideas I'd like to run by you:
I have on my bench a Peter Eaton Elite and the owner finds the low register D a particularly stuffy note. The problem with D is there's a closed tonehole immediately below it (the C# tonehole) making it effectively a forked note. Maybe fitting a ring key to the LH3 tonehole with a vent below it (under the C#/G# touchpiece arm like a reform Boehm or a basset horn) can free up the low register D, such as an Acton vent clears up B/F# when played with the standard fingering (and is also worth considering).
Low A can also be helped with a vent key (like the open standing forked F vent on thumbplate system oboes) that's closed when RH3 is closed - the vent hole in question is in a similar location as the Ab/Eb tonehole but on the opposite side. That will go towards reducing the diameter of the RH3 chimney which some players have trouble covering - on CTs the RH3 tonehole is huge.
To further fully vent things, a double F/C key as on some older Leblancs and on basses can help the venting of low G which is often compromised by the closeness of the F/C key pad and is often remedied by making the E/B key open excessively wide.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-04 13:38
Dear Chris,
I see that you're in Brighton. Would you mind terribly dropping me a line at my personal e-mail address? The next time I'm in Britain, it would be nice to see you and show you our wares and get your expert opinion on them. I'm sure you could give us some sound advice (pun intended!) I hope I'm still allowed in the country.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-08-05 11:59
As a owner of several big bore Selmers from RI up to Series 9 I can subscribe partly the enthousiastic reactions here on the board. However, there are reasons for not remaking it:
First of all: There are plenty of original instruments on the secondhand market. You can buy a Series 9 very cheap. CTs and older ones are more difficult to find but with some effort you can still find them and also for reasonable prices. Far less than what you would pay for a new instrument.
Secondly, I don't think there is a large community waiting for this clarinet. Despite a few enthousiastic posters on this board, the group that likes the sound and feel of the old Selmers is rather small. Mostly jazz players and sax doublers. May be also a reason that prices for these old clarinets is not rising into heaven, unlike the Mark VI sax.
If you do 'remake' them I have some wishes though. The old Selmers have little 'resonance' compared to e.g. Boosey 926 and 1010. To add some resonance you could design different barrels and bells for them. A traditional shaped barrel and bell for jazz players and a 'fatboy' barrel and bell for more resonance. More like the Booseys but of course optimized for the Selmer remake. Could also be a nice upgrade for original Selmers.
But much more interesting is remaking an old 'unknown' clarinet. e.g. Jacques Albert Fils clarinets have something special to the sound: some mix between French and German sound. Or an historical copy for playing Mozart or Brahms, but then with Boehm system and modern pitch. Just a few guesses.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-05 13:01
Ruben, I'm around 30 miles (50km) west of Brighton (I'm in Bognor Regis) so it would be good to share some ideas should you decide to visit the UK.
I think it would be good for players to list what features they'd like to see incorporated on a single clarinet, so the end product is a clarinet that players want.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-05 13:20
Dear Jeroen,
Absolutely rational reasons not to make a copy of a Selmer Centered Tone! It is also true that there are quite a few available, so why pay 4000 euros for a new one which is unlikely to be your primary instrument anyway. The balance for us is tipping in favour of Leblanc L300. Jacques Albert Fils, I had never heard of but will certainly look into.
I hasten to add that we have three models of our own, and copying an old instrument isn't all that necessary. It does seem to be commercially the trend these days, however, and would be fun.
Thank you very much! If we could afford you, you would make a good marketing manager.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-05 13:29
PS: Jeroen. I hadn't put two and two together. Jacques Albert Fils is, of course, of the Albert system lineage.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2016-08-05 13:39
Jeroen wrote:
> But much more interesting is remaking an old 'unknown'
> clarinet. e.g. Jacques Albert Fils clarinets have something
> special to the sound: some mix between French and German sound.
I have a pair of Jacques Albert Clinton system clarinets. They are very very good. Reversed cone in the upper joint. Excellent intonation. Extremely thin wood for the bells (both cracked).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-05 13:51
I saw a real injustice done to a pair of Jacques Albert Boehm systems that had been silver plated - the plating on the keywork was very frosty, the bell rings had been removed to be plated nearly destroying the bells in the process (which is why solid nickel silver bell rings are often left unplated) and the tenons were bodged up with excessive amounts of cork to stop them from wobbling when they could've easily been sleeved. All topped off with a poor quality overhaul.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-08-05 14:11
I'd love a "new" pair of good Albert system clarinets.
dn
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-08-05 15:49
Ruben wrote:
> PS: Jeroen. I hadn't put two and two together. Jacques Albert Fils is, of
> course, of the Albert system lineage.
Yes, but the Albert family built Boehm clarinets too.
PS. I looked at your website, is it only in French? An English version would be nice. Also some more details about your different models would be interesting.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-05 19:15
Dibbs: Do you think the "extremely thin wood for the bells" was for acoustic purposes? Mazzeo used thin wood for the bells on his clarinets. What does this do (apart from crack! ha ha)?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-08-05 19:49
I recall that Luis Rossi has said in the past that he was influenced by the designs of Jacques Albert Fils Boehm clarinets, especially in the measurements and playing characteristics of the large-bore Rossi models. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the Rossi web site anymore to verify this; is this site still up?
Drucker's past endorsement of the Leblanc L300, along with the good reviews given by the very few players on this list who own them, do lend a certain allure to recreating that model, but how many of us have ever heard anyone actually perform on an L300? Most of us have at least tried the Selmer CT and many have played it at some time in their career, and even the Buffet Elite got enough circulation for us to have some concrete memory of that design (I tried one and heard Arringon play "The Birds" from the Messian piece in person on an Elite--a dramatic moment in my album of clarinet memories), but how does the L300 play?
Someone said rather like a Selmer Signature, dark and round. Since Signatures are still made and not at all hard to find on the market, how exactly would the renewed L300 lure players who like that kind of sound away from the Signature and make them want to buy the L300?
I would love to hear a recording of a good clarinetist playing the L300. Are there any?
Here's one of Curzio Petraglio playing a Buffet Elite; you can hear the compact, almost water-color-like sound of it, the very light, non-spread, shimmery sound that was peculiar to this instrument.
Can anyone link us to a recording of a Leblanc L300?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Curzio+Petraglio+Spohr+
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-05 23:14
Seabreeze: Many thanks and I greatly value your opinion. I must admit that I had forgotten all about the Elite. I will practise both these instruments for a week and take it from there. Most of the people that played the Elite gave up playing it after a couple of years (here in France, at any rate), for the reasons you have spoken of. But maybe what was wrong with it can be put right. I tried one out when it first came out and was delighted. But it was very expensive and I didn't break down and buy one.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: gkern
Date: 2016-08-07 22:09
Ruben, I have to second Hank's suggestion of the Leblanc L200. This was supposed to be Leblanc's answer to the R-13, and a fantastic player with great intonation. If my Leblanc 176 (1949) and L7 (1971) are indicative of the Leblanc quality of this era, it would be a winner! Love those horns, even more than my CT or King Marigaux.
Gary K
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-07 23:10
qkern: Thank you! I'll be playing a Leblanc L300 soon and see if I like it (I suspect I will). It's of the same family as L200 and L7. I'll keep you posted.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-08-08 01:02
Hi All,
One item that I mentioned earlier and wish to emphasize again is the L200 is "built like a tank." Not clunky or massive but with excellent ergonomics and a very solid feel. Plus the intonation is superb.
LeBlanc had all the boxes checked here.
HRL
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-08-09 12:43
Hi Ruben, just curious about the L300, have you played it already? How does it compare with the Concerto/Opus line?
Btw, I checked my Jacques Albert Fils A clarinet and it really plays terrific. Pity the left hand twelfths are far too wide.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-09 13:10
Dear Jeroen: I haven't tried out the Leblanc L300 yet. I'm supposed to pick it up somewhere in Normandy next week. It wasn't all that easy to find one! I'm still trying to find out who tested/conceived it. Testers impart their musical personality on an instrument: e.g. Deplus on the Buffet Prestige, Guy Danguin on the Selmer Recital, etc.. I'll certainly keep you posted.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-08-15 12:02
ruben wrote:
> Dear Jeroen: I haven't tried out the Leblanc L300 yet. I'm
> supposed to pick it up somewhere in Normandy next week. It
> wasn't all that easy to find one! I'm still trying to find out
> who tested/conceived it. Testers impart their musical
> personality on an instrument: e.g. Deplus on the Buffet
> Prestige, Guy Danguin on the Selmer Recital, etc.. I'll
> certainly keep you posted.
>
Hi Ruben,
I found one L300 last weekend. It was owned by a music band, not in a very good condition, but playable. I compared it on the spot with two LL's and my own B&H Emperor. Compared to the LL the L300 has more focus and a more direct sound emission. The LL has a more sweet, covered sound. The L300 has a brighter, richer sound. I was afraid that the L300 played like a Selmer Signature: resistant and stuffy, but this was not true at all. Intonation of the L300 is very good, IMHO better than the LL. Compared to my Emperor the L300 played almost automatically. The Emperor gives more flexibility in sound but is harder to control, both for sound and intonation. For these reasons I bought the L300. Mechanics are very good also.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-08-15 16:09
Looks like you may have turned up a real gem of a clarinet. LeBlanc made so many different L models, it's hard to keep track of them. When I was in the 4th Army Band in San Antonio in 1965-1967, the LL was the standard issue clarinet, so I got to know it very well (I think I tried about two dozen of them), but I've never even seen an L300 or heard anyone play one. Production on this model must have been pretty low. If it sounds that good and is built with good materials to last, a clarinet like that would certainly deserve to be recreated.
As much as I like the sound and small feel in the hands of the Buffet Elite, I have to admit that the Elite was not engineered well and costly to keep in repair, and from what Ruben said, had serious intonation problems as well. It's beginning to appear that I might like the LeBlanc 300 more. I just wonder why more of them were not made and why they didn't sell well. Maybe a clarinet before its time?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-15 17:10
Simple answer - it's not a Buffet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-08-15 20:03
Dear Jeroen and Seabreeze,
Many thanks for your help, advice and enthusiasm. I will certainly give you updates if and when we have made some headway. Just one small detail: Léon Leblanc's philosophy was that he wanted a clarinet that even a repairman with modest skills could easily repair. You can find an expert repairman in New York and Paris, but what about in Slippery Rock or in Tuba City? The Buffet Elite was unfortunately always out of whack.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-08-16 13:43
Well, for me, the L300 is the best Leblanc I have ever played as I don't like the Concerto/Opus line. If you do like the Concerto/Opus line, you probably prefer them above the L300. And if you like the specific sound of the LL you would probably also not like the L300.
For me, the L300 is a 'save' instrument to have along my other clarinets. You can pick it up to get a good result without bothering too much on mouthpiece, reeds and intonation. But I don't think it will replace my B&H or Wurlitzer clarinets because they have their specific sound quality.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-08-16 23:53
I have tried three different L300 Bbs and one A.
What makes them special in the Leblanc product line history is the sound. The model did belong to the L7, L70, L27, L200 and LX line but the sound and feel is different. The tone is vibrant in a special way. I cannot tell if it comes from the bore or the special bell that has never been seen on any Leblanc clarinet before or after. I can test with a different bell to find out.
Intonation, which I see as Leblancs #1 trademark, is average. I have a method where I measure and quantify the spread of the tones. If a Concerto scores 4.5 on average, an Opus 5.0, an LL 5.5 the figure for the L300 is 8.
On all L300 instruments I have tested, the low chalumeau and the high clarion has been sacrificed for an in-tune low clarion and high chalumeau. The G5 to C6 have to be lipped down (which is easy) while you have to live with the flat E3, F3 and F#3 (like on most clarinets).
I found a review of the L300 in "The Clarinet" Vol 10 No 1 (fall 1982). Lee Gibson ended the review of the A and Bb like this: "The greatest virtue of the L300s is their tones, which are in this set the most beautiful I have ever heard in any clarinet. These are going to be winners, and they can lead Leblanc to its finest hour."
Post Edited (2016-08-16 23:55)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-08-17 00:27
Thanks for recalling the Lee Gibson review. Somebody ought to collect those and make the set available again either in print or on the Internet. When I spoke with Gibson in the 1970s, he was enamored of the sounds he heard coming from Oehler clarinets produced by small makers like Hans Kreul. If he later assigned the superlative in tone quality to a LeBlanc Boehm, that design must have offered something very special. Of course any of us is still free to prefer a Buffet Divine, a Yamaha SEV Artist, a Backun Mo-Ba, a Schwenk & Seggelke, a Gerold, or whatever today.
Post Edited (2016-08-17 00:34)
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The Clarinet Pages
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