 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-07-10 02:14
Decided to work on pitch. I find I am either on pitch or within + /- 20 using a Korg CA-1 meter.
I was wondering if not exactly on pitch (0), how close would be acceptable. I am usually +\- 10 to 20.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-07-10 02:26
I would suggest that the prime objective is to match the pitch of the ensemble around you, whether a duo or full orchestra.
String players regularly depart fron the tempered scale unless a keyboard is involved so "correct" pitch is a moveable feast anyway.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-10 02:50
To add to what Norman said, it's more important that your scale be reasonably in tune with itself. The overall pitch of the clarinet can be adjusted, but if every note sits at a different place relative to whatever standard you use (whether it's A=440 from a Korg or the tuning pitch given in an orchestra or band) and adjustment needs to be made note by note, there may well be something wrong with the instrument.
You don't say if your pitch variation is consistently out in one direction or the other through the entire compass of the instrument (give or take some small variation) or, as your "*/-" implies, it is all over the map. There needs to be some stability in the pitch from one note to the other and between registers or adjusting to the players around you in an ensemble can cause a lot of contortion and instability in your embouchure.
I would say 10-20 cents is too much swing - more than you would want to have to compensate for in an ensemble setting. But what to do about it really depends on what the actual problem is.
Maybe you could be more specific about the problem you're asking about.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-07-10 06:00
An electronic tuner should be set to "slow" response. The "fast" setting tracks changes that are too fast to adjust to.
You should also play without looking at the meter. Let someone else tell you how far out you are.
Generally, tuning to within 10 cents (without embouchure adjustment) is good. Your embouchure and your ear can compensate. 15 or 20 cents is enough out that you should get the instrument (or the mouthpiece) adjusted, and 30 cents out is painful.
However, the "highest and best" use of an electronic tuner is to set it at a particular pitch and tune intervals around it. This teaches you to hear the beats and adjust. That's what you do in an ensemble.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-07-10 06:38
This is mostly new to me and I was seeking some guidelines. Though have owned a pitch device for some time I hadn't concentrated on pitch since I play only for myself and it sounds OK. But I read where players say how many cents high or low they are I thought I would check myself out and try to improve. When I took lessons the teacher always said I played flat but I was more motivated to learn to play than to worry about pitch as long as it sounded OK to me. Now I would like to improve if necessary. First I will have to have someone else watch the meter and see exactly how much variation there is and how much off I may be.
Is the best way to evaluate to play scales or to play songs or does it matter?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-07-10 18:20
My suggestion would be to do more with setting the TONE feature (say concert Bb) and then playing "Bb scales, arpeggios and exercises (my favorites are all the keys in the Kroepsch Exercises). You want (ideally) to be able to match pitch with your years mostly, not your eyes. Lately I find that setting the fixed pitch at a higher octave (not for the sonically squeamish) makes it EASIER to hear the comparison to those (the ones you are playing) that are lower.
Once you've spent some time in a practice session doing that, then check the meter.
I would say anything more than five cents out is going to be noticeable to just about everybody.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2016-07-10 19:12
Attachment: Yamaha.jpg (327k)
With Chromatia Tuner.exe you can record your scales (without looking at the display if you like) and check detuning afterwards. You can export the results to a spreadsheet to generate a tuning graph. The example is from a Yamaha 457-20; values are about average compared with some other instruments measured, partly by myself, partly by a professional (anyhow, after measurements with many instruments, as a not too experienced player, I am still not sure how to completely eliminate unvoluntary personal factors of embouchure and breath and obtain "objective" data for an instrument).
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-10 19:13
Paul Aviles wrote:
> [snip] You want (ideally) to be able to match pitch with
> your years mostly, not your eyes.
>
> Once you've spent some time in a practice session doing that,
> then check the meter.
>
> I would say anything more than five cents out is going to be
> noticeable to just about everybody.
>
This is useful and valuable if you are consistently out of tune because of an embouchure or blowing issue that, when corrected, improves intonation overall. And I agree that anything more than 5 cents' difference with the surrounding pitch in an ensemble will make most people around you uncomfortable.
But playing rubber lips to adjust C down 10 cents, D up 15 cents, E down 2 cents, etc. is no way to have to play the clarinet. Again, if your pitch is as erratic as your original post made it sound (the "*/-" part), there's very likely to be a problem with your clarinet's tuning. Getting that evaluated and, if possible, fixed, is more basic than any listening exercise with a tuner, if that's what's going on. Once you're certain the equipment is not producing the problem, then it's for you as the player to learn to make the small adjustments from note to note and register to register that are needed even with the best-tuned clarinets.
No acoustic clarinet (leave out MIDI instruments) tunes perfectly, and a few notes on even a top-line clarinet may be out by 10 cents one way or the other. Those should be tweaked individually (undercutting, adding tape or nail polish, etc.) to the best compromise possible (what you do to a lower register note will also change its twelfth) and then the note needs to be humored the rest of the way by the player. That's why you need to narrow the problem down more than your original post does. Different problems demand different solutions.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-07-10 19:37
You rightly point out, Karl, that no clarinet is perfectly in tune. I get a sense from the poster that having the tuner present in the room now is a novelty. So any adjustment will feel 'big' until they become second nature.
It is also correct to say that you should have a clarinet that has the least number of pitch irregularities (or smallest degree of pitch difference) as possible. But experience with the tuner, if it is indeed a new thing, will make even the smallest differences seem bigger until more familiarity with the process takes place.
Don't forget there is ALSO the change in pitch which occurs when we change dynamics. This can even be MORE dramatic than the note to note tuning and needs to be addressed in the same "ears ON" method.
............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2016-07-10 22:21)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-07-11 19:33
Those pitch irregularities drive me cuckoo even though I have relative pitch, not perfect pitch. My (amateur) experience with restoring clarinets and trying out different brands has been that most of the clarinets sold for beginners have wide twelfths. The theory seems to be that beginners tend to play the higher notes flat. (With wide twelfths, the clarion register plays sharp while the chalumeau notes played with the same keys sound flat. Typically the higher up the scale you go, the sharper the tuning gets.) I think this so-called stretch-tuning is the most common type of bad intonation built into clarinets.
Another common problem is throat tones all over the place, some flat and some sharp. Sometimes that fault seems to be built into the instrument, but a lot of the time I can improve that mess by slightly tightening or loosening the screw on the top of the A-Ab crossover keys (the screw that's pointing down toward the bore). A quarter of a turn on that pesky screw can make a surprisingly big difference on some clarinets and can also cause or cure an air leak squeak.
If I had to choose a new clarinet for a beginner or an intermediate student, I would try to find one with the least amount of stretch-tuning. If I had to buy an instrument that's audibly stretch-tuned, I'd go for one where the clarion is the better register, in tune with local pitch. I find it easier to "lip up" flat low notes than to flatten the clarion. However, with extremely wide twelfths, it's almost impossible to lip up enough to avoid squeaking. As we've discussed here before, some orchestras in the USA tune to concert A=440Hz while others tune to A=442 Hz, and some European orchestras tune as high as A=444 (driving tenor and soprano singers nuts).
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-12 00:29
The OP hasn't shared what instrument he's having this problem with. "Stretch" tuning is at least consistent and predictable and you can learn to deal with it if necessary. All-over-the-map throat notes can be adjusted, since, except for F4 (if you still consider that to be in the throat register) they don't have standard twelfths to consider.
Ironically, building a clarinet to compensate for a young player's lack of development also masks those problems, making them harder to solve. So, if I were teaching beginners again, I would want to look for a clarinet that tunes accurately. Someone must (I hope) make one in a reasonable (entry level) price range.
An answer to BGBG's question really revolves around the meaning of his "+/- 10-20" cents. He also says he is "either on pitch or within + /- 20." Taken together, I haven't yet figured out what the real problem is.
Karl
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-07-12 00:56
What is stretch tuning?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-07-12 08:20
Instrument is a Buffet E11 Germany with Lyre M13 88 MP 2 years old.
Haven't really spent lots of time on the pitch thing. Just checked it out of curiosity and found it varied between on pitch and the 10 to 20 marks on either side. Wanted to know if it is very much off and if I should work on improving it. I play just for myself and with no other instruments so if it sounds good to me I don't worry too much about it. But I would like to improve it if I could. Maybe it is the embouchure relaxing or something. Dont know how to explain it except to say that it does not stay fixed on a number but varies, and if concentrate on a single note I can make it stay on green which indicates on pitch which I think is calibrated to 440. I didnt want to go so far as to buy extra parts to accomplish improvement and I do not yet know if it is always off the same amount or same direction. I have a feeling though that all notes are not the same error. If I knew how to practice this I would do so.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-07-12 10:18
The point is that if it's the instrument's problem - if the E11 itself is causing the pitch variances - practicing won't solve it. Taking it to a skilled repair tech might, but it will not be inexpensive. You can correct small pitch discrepancies with embouchure or internal oral adjustments, but 20 cents flat or sharp is a lot to compensate for, and if you have to do it for too many notes it isn't reasonable. Your ideal goal is to keep as stable an embouchure as possible, and adjusting to widely varying pitch from note to note undermines good technique.
So. once more, if you want to get at the problem you've asked about, you need first to figure out what the problem is. You keep asking for a practice approach, and several suggestions were made early in the thread that could be effective *if your technique is the source of the problem.* If it isn't, then you need to find the source and fix that (or have it fixed by someone who knows what to do about it). Applying a technical solution to a mechanical problem can simply lead to bad habits, which presumably is not your goal.
You really need more experienced ears to help you with this. As in so many other areas, the effectiveness of answers from cyberspace is badly limited by the fact that no one here can hear you or analyze your playing. Your inexperience as a player limits your ability to describe the situation clearly. That isn't your fault. It comes with the territory. But an experienced teacher listening to you in person could help so much more effectively because he or she wouldn't need to rely on your perception but could hear and see your playing for him(her)self.
Karl
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