 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-15 01:54
Warning: rant follows.
I have not had good experiences with private teachers. My first teacher(fiddle) was quite bad with times, being prepared, and communication. My second teacher(violin) was a good teacher, but was constantly 5 minutes late for lessons and stretched beyond her expertise teaching adults.
Today, my prospective teacher (clarinet) canceled 35 minutes before our first lesson due to a mishap/injury. After my experiences with my other teachers, I have a hard time buying it. Since this seemed to be an abnormal lesson time for this teacher, the cancellation doesn't surprise me much, but it does disappoint me tremendously.I hate to be this way, but my past experiences have not given me a lot of confidence in teachers' abilities to be consistent and reliable.
I work hard at a job I dislike for $20 per hour. I show up every day, on time. My 3 teachers, who charge 3x that amount per hour, have not shown they want to earn it. And if they don't appreciate how lucky they are to earn $60 or $70 per hour, how can they possibly appreciate the effort that their students put into learning the music/instrument? Does being more artistic give teachers the license to be more flaky(as my first teacher told me)? Am I being too harsh?
Somebody please tell me my teachers are in the minority and that I'm just incredibly unlucky with my experiences.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-06-15 02:11
Aaron,
Yes, you are being too harsh, those teachers are probably in the minority, and IMHO being artistic does not correlate with being flaky.
Too bad you have had such a lousy experience but it does happen.
HRL
PS How are you getting in contact with these teachers?
Post Edited (2016-06-15 02:22)
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2016-06-15 02:28
I live in the Pacific Northwest and have never had to pay a teacher more then $50 per hour. One was the principle clarinetist of a major symphony orchestra the other a retired clarinet professor at a major university. Neither one was ever late. I must admit, however, I had a couple of individuals ask for $100 per hour so I kept looking. However, being retired I've always been able to go to lessons in the off hours, during the day, Monday to Friday. Maybe rates are higher on weekends and at night when students are out of school.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-06-15 02:48
I think you're lucky to find teachers so easily who will waste the time coming to your house to teach you. You're paying $60, but they're putting in travel time that, strictly speaking, is uncompensated.
If you take your lessons at a music school or the teacher's house, you don't need to deal with lateness on the teacher's part.
Karl
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-15 03:20
Hank, two were via email, one was via phone. My first teacher was a referral from a music store - he/she taught from his home as well as at the store. The other two were web searches. All 3 of these teachers have degrees and make their living teaching/performing.
Keep in mind that today's cancellation was the initial lesson - it was probably a legitimate cancellation. I'm just skeptical based on my past experiences.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-06-15 03:33
Aaron,
We seem to have quickly moved beyond the flake issue and your real problem is connecting with the right instructor.
I do not know about violin teachers but my "street-sense" tells me you need to drill down a little further to find the right clarinet instructor. Check with a local university music program or even a very good HS band program. Try to get referrals from students that have great teachers. This will take some time but it is a reasonable way to proceed.
HRL
PS BTW, a degree in music and/or being a great player does not necessarily mean the person can instruct. Teaching well takes a great deal of skill, patience, and knowledge of the pedagogy of the instrument.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-06-15 03:41
I would fall on the side of the possibility that your search criteria may be flawed.
If you look for the local symphony players (some will teach anyone as long as you meet their fee and they have an opening) or university professors, you are more likely to run into folks who are responsible and are as concerned about time as you are. I've worked in less populated cities where the starting rate was around $40 an hour (or $20 for a half hour), but fees can go up depending on the instructor's experience etc.
Many musician's are flakes by the way, but the professionals have to be responsible to hold decent long term gigs.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-15 03:41
Karl, nobody has come to my house. It has always been the other way 'round. And it is completely possible to be late at your own house. Finishing meals, dealing with family stuff, consistently running over with the student preceeding me and ending my time slot on time (5+ minutes every week).
I understand the need give-and-take, certainly, but these sorts of things continued even after I suggested changing the lesson time to adjust for such things. There were even a couple of times during evening lessons where the teacher was nodding off. One of the teachers was better than the other, but these sorts of behaviors were present in both of them.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-15 03:56
Hank/Paul, you are correct. In addition to the lateness/reliability issues, I have not really connected with my instructors on an intellectual level. And I'm sure they have not connected with me as well. One of them ended up being a good friend on a personal level, but not professionally.
One trouble is that, musically, I am drawn to odd genres. My tastes run towards folk/baroque genres. I'm not terribly interested in learning classical music - I'm more interested in traditional jazz etc on the clarinet. There are only limited number of instructors in these sorts of genres. Combine that with my busy adult life, and sometimes you take what you can get.
Going rate here is around $60 per hour. I don't see what hourly rate has to do with anything, excepting that $60 is a lot of money to people like me.
Post Edited (2016-06-15 03:58)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-06-15 03:57
See, that describes an unengaged teacher. No matter what the quality of the feedback is from the student, as a teacher it is MY obligation to find ways to get better results from the student. To that end, during a lesson I am always fully engaged and pro-active (as much as possible). I in turn have always experienced the same from my teachers.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-06-15 04:55
awildman wrote:
> Karl, nobody has come to my house. It has always been the
> other way 'round. And it is completely possible to be late at
> your own house.
Ah! Then I completely misunderstood the situation from your first post. I think you've had some bad luck, and it's interesting that you've become a friend with one of these "flaky" teachers on a personal level. That, along with knowing now that your interests stylistically don't strongly favor "classical" material for me sheds a wholly different light on your situation.
It may be obvious, but to be clear, are you expressing your interest in traditional jazz at the outset when you first contact a new teacher-candidate? Some (by now, in 2016, many) clarinetists are not trained in or experienced with jazz and don't have a clear idea what to teach. I play jazz if I'm reading it, and I can improvise a little, but awkwardly and not especially interestingly. I would not accept the responsibility of trying to teach to a jazz interest, because my jazz skills are simply not strong enough, unless it were with the understanding that basic technique is basic technique in whatever style you want to apply it. It might take a fairly complicated negotiation, one that might well lead to a more productive teacher-student relationship or to a recommendation that another teacher might be a better fit.
For adult students, finding a good fit in a teacher is far more difficult than it is for a parent looking for a teacher for his or her child. You have expectations in the areas of both musical approach and professional procedure (deportment?) that a 10-year-old or even a 16-year-old generally doesn't.
I might still go down the road of contacting the clarinet instructor at a nearby college or university or a major music school and asking specifically about teachers who have strength in the areas you want to work on. Then once (if) you've been able to identify someone, in your first conversation talk about your past experiences. You need to find a teacher whose musical strengths complement your needs and who is capable of establishing a respectful two-directional adult to adult professional relationship.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-06-15 05:15
I agree with Karl's comments. I have some experience with jazz and enjoy it, but like many clarinet players, it isn't my greatest strength.
There are a lot of sax players out there with very strong jazz skills, and many play clarinet as a second instrument. I'm guessing that you could probably find one of them who would be eager to teach you.
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Author: SonicManEXE
Date: 2016-06-15 05:41
No. Not all private teachers are flakes. I've had two clarinet teachers. My first one is a clinician at my middle school, so I know him well (his stepdaughter was also a drum major at my high school a couple years before I got there, so he and his wife are well-known among my older friends). Not only does he live several doors down from me, but he always drove the two minute walk to my house and was very prompt. Lessons were $40 an hour. Unfortunately, he mainly teaches middle school woodwind players (although clarinet is his main instrument) and by the end of my sophomore year (a year of working with him) he had to practice at home to catch up with me. Even though he is not a professional he got me on the path I'm on now, and even now he's still as nice as he ever was to me.
My second teacher I've used a couple times. He was my high school director's saxophone professor while he was at FAMU, but he's also an amazing clarinet player and plays it in our local community band. Being a music teacher and basically a professional musician, he charges $60 a lesson, which is much better than you may think from someone who went to Florida State and has been doing this for a long time. Still, he's very nice and just freaking amazing.
So, no. Not all private teachers are flakes. I'm sorry you've had such bad luck. I'm sure there's a good person in your area somewhere.
Jared
Ft. Lauderdale & Tampa, FL
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-06-15 05:49
Aaron,
Excellent advice from all above. However, now that I understand your desire for folk/baroque/jazz I may become somewhat of a "wet blanket."
I'm a classically trained woodwind player, a strong jazz musician, and a successful teacher. But if I took you on as a student, I would first have to be sure you have command of the instrument and this means scales, drills, and etudes at first.
You can't jump to playing all the things you mention unless you have have the basic skills (aka Tough Love). This is the longer path but the soundest approach.
HRL
PS If you have not seen the classic sports movie "Hoosiers" you need to see how the new coach (played by Gene Hackman) first worked with the Hickory BB team. You've got to have sound fundamentals to progress in anything.
Post Edited (2016-06-15 14:33)
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-06-15 07:01
Aaron....
I totally agree with Hank. We all want to run before we can walk, but you need a good foundation.
As a returning bass clarinet player after many years absent, I started playing with a local concert band. I've hired a local teacher to help me "brush up" on some things. He's a band director at a local school as well as a sax/clarinetist in one of the US Army bands. He also plays in area jazz bands. He stared me off with Rubank Advanced Method. I went home and started mulling through the first lessons.
At my next lesson with my teacher, I made a few snarky comments about playing scales, arpeggios, drills, etc etc. His reaction to me was ".... oh I misunderstood... I thought you said you wanted to learn to play bass clarinet again."
OUCH. I thought I had retained my abilities from years past. I remembered all the fingering etc... but technique, embouchure, mechanics, etc remained where I left them years ago.
Daily drills, scales, and exercises have made a huge difference. My band mates have noticed a marked improvement in my abilities in just a few months not to mention the joy of actually playing the music correctly. So as a returning novice... take the advise of the pros on this board and find a good teacher, start with the basics and stick to it.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-15 07:09
"There are a lot of sax players out there with very strong jazz skills, and many play clarinet as a second instrument. I'm guessing that you could probably find one of them who would be eager to teach you."
This is exactly who I was supposed to have a lesson with today. Now I need to reschedule or find another one.
"It may be obvious, but to be clear, are you expressing your interest in traditional jazz at the outset when you first contact a new teacher-candidate? Some (by now, in 2016, many) clarinetists are not trained in or experienced with jazz and don't have a clear idea what to teach. "
Yes indeed. I have had a really hard time finding a clarinet teacher that is not classically-oriented. The teacher who cancelled today is primarily a jazz/rock saxophonist. We both agreed (via email) when setting up the lesson that we would need to discuss my health/schedule and other concerns. I assumed that we would start out on basics(Essential Elements or similar), and mix in jazz materials as I progressed. To be perfectly honest, I had quite a list of questions/concerns prepared for the teacher to see if we were a good fit. Schedule, teaching/learning styles, familiarity with the music, experience with adults, ability to listen to my needs, willingness to adapt and try new things if necessary - that sort of thing.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-15 07:15
I am fully aware of the needs for scales/arps and such. After starting with fiddle music(very informal, relaxed pedagogy combined with simple music), I took a year of violin lessons with a classical teacher. I saw what an immense difference the exercises made in my playing in that time.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-06-15 15:26
Ahhhh.... so you've had your answers all along and your posting was, as you stated, just a rant.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-06-15 15:54
Quote:
Are all private teachers flakes?
No. You've only sampled two. I'm sorry that your experience wasn't more encouraging. I teach from my home. Students are expected to attend every lesson. If my wife or children interrupt a lesson and I'm still communicating with them after 30 seconds I get frustrated...the student is paying for my time.
Quote:
Today, my prospective teacher (clarinet) canceled 35 minutes before our first lesson due to a mishap/injury....This is exactly who I was supposed to have a lesson with today. Now I need to reschedule or find another one.
Why do you need to find another teacher? The first lesson was canceled because of a mishap/injury...it would be a shame to miss out on the possibility of a good teacher because circumstance and previous poor experiences let this one go without a try.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-15 20:01
Tucker, while this was a bit of a rant, I am truly wondering if my standards and expectations were too high.
James, you're right. Now that some time has passed, I realize that I should give this teacher another chance. I should give them the benefit of the doubt until they've proven untrustworthy.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-06-15 20:42
That's like saying all Musicians are flakes......
Price wise, it depends entirely on the location of the teacher.
If My House costs $500K to have a decent studio, and your teacher in the Northwest's home is $275K for a palace, his rate will be less $'s obviously.........
Try NYC where the rent can be $2600 a month for a tiny place.
Also has to do with the teacher's quality of instruction. Quality being shown by things such as All State placement on a regular basis of top students, and what their reputation is for working with students.
Don't want someone who is very hard to work with no matter how good they are.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-06-15 21:47
awildman wrote:
> Tucker, while this was a bit of a rant, I am truly wondering if
> my standards and expectations were too high.
>
You can have whatever standards and expectations you think are important. But it's important to be up-front with the teacher about what they are.
If starting 5 minutes late is an issue for you (even if the lesson ends 5 minutes late as well), you need to let him or her know *before* something that might have been avoidable comes up and starts a cycle of silent resentment in your mind. If there is a pressing need to end on time, necessitating an on-time start, the teacher needs to know that up front as well.
A teacher who is "stretched beyond her limits teaching adults" probably doesn't count on the adult student's having the kind of exacting expectations that few if any children would have. Then there's also the danger of her talking to an adult as though he were a child, and that's more untenable. I have a similar problem playing in adult orchestras for conductors who are primarily high school or college conductors.
I have to say that I consider myself a responsible and effective teacher, and if I have students stacked consecutively and one goes 5 minutes beyond the scheduled lesson time, I don't worry about it. The next student gets his full time (I never have more than two in an evening). If there's a reason why a student really needs to be out my door by the exact time of the scheduled end of lesson, I need to know so that I plan things mentally as we near the ending time. If absolute adherence to the nominal lesson times is a major point of concern for a student, I would probably tell him in all frankness that I'm uncomfortable with that kind of rigidity and let him or her decide whether to lighten up or go elsewhere. Honestly, I've never had it come up, and I don't routinely go overtime or start late. I do respect a student's time, but not to the point of slavery to the clock hands.
One line in your original post has bothered me since I read it, and I've avoided addressing it, but it still keeps pushing me to react in some way. "I work hard at a job I dislike for $20 per hour. I show up every day, on time." This really has nothing at all to do with a music teacher's effectiveness. That any of these people (or future teachers) are better paid and perhaps enjoy their jobs more than you is not an appropriate filter for choosing or evaluating teachers. I truly wish you were happier at your job and better paid for it. It sounds like there's some resentment over this that has gotten into your involvement with clarinet study, and I would suggest as gently as I can that the two aren't or shouldn't be related.
My doctors (all of them) are much better paid than I am. So is the attorney who is handling an ongoing probate process for our family. People get paid in most cases what the market will bear for the service or labor they provide.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-06-16 02:08
I understand the point about being on time. I worked my whole life in jobs with defined work shifts, and if one arrived late then one was spoken to and docked the pay for the lost time. If one were repeatedly late there were increasing penalties, up to dismissal. There wasn't an option of making up lateness at the end of the shift either. One arranged one's life to be at work on time.
One-on-one lessons, like doctor visits, are less precisely defined, so sometimes running late happens - but it shouldn't detract from the next person's appointment.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-06-16 08:34
Very few private teachers are flakes. Some serious musicians I know act like flakes, being late for everything, always with excuses, however. I even know a competent conductor who is always late to rehearsals. They seem to want to be professional but really don't make it. How about giving the clarinet teacher an opportunity to continue?
Today, clarinet players in any kind of music need to have a solid background of training in the fundamentals, in order to be accepted by other musicians or audiences.
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2016-06-20 05:32
There are some that are, but I've been lucky in that where I am that between two instruments (clarinet and piano) and 2-4 teachers on each over a period of 7 years starting about 15 years ago, none of them acted flaky. However, I've heard of some community music schools especially one particular chain in Ontario that is notorious for students having a different teacher almost every week.
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-06-20 16:29
My piano teacher in days of yore, Arthur Eisler, often gave extra time to the more talented and more advanced student who took his lesson just before mine. I loved having to sit on the other side of the large room and wait, the longer the better, because I learned so much from that student's lessons! Mr. Eisler always gave me my full hour, too -- probably cutting into his own private time, since I was his last student before his lunch on Saturdays.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-06-22 21:18
I've had four private teachers ranging from dance band musician to NY Philharmonic member. While they all had their strengths and weaknesses, I can't recall any of them not showing up (unless I was notified in advance), being late or being unprepared. I would not consider any of them a flake.
Burt
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