 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-06-10 21:28
Are there any professional clarinetists still using Mazzeo-system clarinets? Why did these clarinets never catch on? You see them occasionally on second-hand clarinet sites. There may be at least a few features of this clarinet that could be adopted.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-06-10 21:51
You can't put any fingers down when going from playing an open G to the upper register on Mazzeos.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-06-10 22:47
The covered thumb hole was a great idea.
But as Chris pointed out keeping the right hand down was a problem. For example from C5 to A5 while keeping the right hand down would give you a Bb5.
HRL
Post Edited (2016-06-10 22:48)
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2016-06-11 01:39
All of the above are correct, but add the following,
- the pro-models, series 10, etc had a clutch that could be used to convert the Mazzeo into a traditional clarinet. This was provided for those who were changing over to this system the opportunity to switch it back to an "ordinary" clarinet during the learning phase. For example, I could sell either of my two Mazzeo clarinets to a person who did not wish the Mazzeo mechanism.
- the B-flat using the system is never stuffy, but is clear
- the throat B-flat may be played using MANY diferent fingering choices
- the throat A also may be played using many different fingering choices
- yes, you learn to keep the right hand fingers off of the keys, but this was
not a problem after a week or so.
- it never caught on because there were not enough teachers to teach
the new system to new students since there were no players in numbers. I
was introduced to the mazzeo system by my teacher, Ronand Anfincon
45 years ago at which time I purchased my Series 10 B-flat and A Mazzeos.
I hopes this helps
Gene
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-06-11 01:39
I understood that Mazzeo claimed that the throat notes in his system were naturally of a better tone quality and so didn't need the so called resonance fingerings.
Obviously a player would need to condition themselves to not using them by mistake.
But the natural conservatism of instrument players to any significant change was the major factor e.g the "improved Bb" speaker mechanisms, the forked Eb/Bb etc.
Post Edited (2016-06-11 01:42)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-06-11 02:10
Norman Smale wrote:
> I understood that Mazzeo claimed that the throat notes in his
> system were naturally of a better tone quality and so didn't
> need the so called resonance fingerings.
But the problem may have been that holding the RH fingers down wasn't only done for resonance purposes. It was (is) part of the technique for slurring smoothly over the "break." Legato connections between G4, G#4 or A4 and the clarion notes benefits many players by having the RH fingers already down while playing the throat note.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-06-11 04:54
From this discussion, I hope nobody gets the idea that the Mazzeo clarinet was never used by a professional clarinetist in a symphony orchestra with any measure of success. I had the pleasure of hearing one of Mazzeo's former students, Larry Mentzer, principal clarinet in the San Antonio Symphony, perform in that orchestra on Mazzeo instruments for several years with great clarity and distinction. It would be educational to hear Mr. Mentzer's recollection of those years and his evaluation of the relative merits of the Mazzeo instrument: he is still active as a teacher in San Antonio.
Post Edited (2016-06-11 23:17)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-06-11 05:11
The complete Mazzeo mechanism was very complex and difficult to keep in adjustment. The instruments were also very heavy. Worst of all, the Ab/Eb key had so many things attached to it that it took the little finger of King Kong to operate.
There are plenty of resonance fingerings for throat Bb, not to mention the simple Stubbins mechanism, which doesn't require a change in fingering.
It was stillborn because there were so many great players who got along fine without it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-06-11 07:55
On doing a complete overhaul on a full Mazzeo Selmer clarinet, I found that it was difficult and time consuming to adjust. The wood was extremely dense and the sound was fine. The throat Bbs on my R13s are just fine as made and I never use resonance fingerings for them.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-06-11 11:03
It's not only about resonance fingerings, it's about fluid technique which is hindered by having to play intervals with G and G# and upper register notes where keeping the necessary RH fingers (1, 2 and 3) down will make things much smoother. Like conservatoire system oboes, some careful finger co-ordination is paramount to avoid any accidental grace notes or blips.
On Mazzeos, throat A can be played just by putting any of RH fingers 1, 2 and 3 down as that opens the side Bb vent on the top joint to give an A on its own (as you can do an open G-A trill on a standard Boehm system clarinet).
The other problem with Mazzeo system is it was only fitted to Bb and A clarinets, so if you're accustomed to using Mazzeo fingerings, you'll be at a disadvantage if you had to play Eb or bass clarinet as they weren't available in Mazzeo form unless they were converted. So if you didn't have the means to have keywork alterations done, your playing if you were solely a Mazzeo system player was restricted to Bb and A clarinets.
Rosario Mazzeo had other pitch soprano clarinets with his mechanism fitted to - even a Buffet or two from what I gather, but Selmer who were the only company to offer it only offered plastic Bundy, wooden Signet and a few Selmer Paris Bb and A clarinets in both basic and full Mazzeo system (full Boehms with Mazzeo system had in addition to full Boehm keywoek a LH low Eb lever, articulated F#/C# and the Ab/Eb-C#/G# link). But no other pitche clarinets apart from Bb and A were offered going by their catalogue from the '70s.
If the system was more widespread and other makers offered Mazzeo system clarinets (if they were granted the rights to do so), then they'd still be made to this day. Like full Boehms and other extra gadgets that were more popular in the 20th Century, they've mostly been phased out over time as companies have streamlined their manufacturing process and most only offer the LH Ab/Eb key as an extra and some mechanisms borrowed from Oehler systems to bring the flat low E and F up to pitch (either manually or automatically).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2016-06-11 21:09
Hello again,
I have enjoyed reading the above posts since mine was entered. You all did a great job in filling in facts that I left out, and agree with all of the helpful comments. Thank you for accurate input.
I wish to add that the grenadilla in my two clarinets purchased 45 years was very
dense and had very tight grain. Neither clarinet has the hint of a crack today.
At this time, I was able to select both clarinets for a selection at the Selmer factory at Elkhart, Indiana with the assistance of their chief technician. Ah, the good old days.
The clarinets are fitted with a clutch to turn the Mazzeo system on or off. I have
applied clear nail polish to these to prevent this from happening (especially during a performance) Yes, I could still play as normal clarinets, but perhaps the next person who gets them may not want the feature.
Also, Cloyd Williams, principal clarinet of the Minnesota Symphony (deceased) played
Mazzeos.
Take care, Gene
Post Edited (2016-06-12 01:35)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-06-11 22:51
A teacher of mine had a set that he got at the Selmer factory. He had been a student of Mazzeo's. I remember them being nice instruments. (I thought that he also had a Mazzeo bass, but based on what Chris says, maybe I am imagining it, unless it was a special order item)
A lot of good comments above to explain. Certainly the fact that it was exclusive to Selmer had something to do with its demise. It is also interesting to note that years ago it was possible to order clarinets with various other added keys (low Eb, articulated C#G#, etc) and today other than the LH Eb, none of that seems to exist from the big makers.
From a mechanical standpoint, I like the relative simplicity of the clarinet compared to some of the other WW mechanisms out there.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-06-11 23:40
I would still love to get a full Mazzeo Selmer CT - or even just the lower joint from one with the extra keywork that full Boehms don't have. Mainly for the articulated F#/C# and LH low Eb lever.
I currently use a Mazzeo bell with my Series 9 full Boehm A clarinet if playing it for long periods just to take some of the weight off the right thumb as it's much lighter than a regular Series 9 bell and the point of balance is moved further up the instrument.
Another massively over engineered Selmer was the Marchi system that was a full Boehm with all manner of extra mechanism (or N.8SM in their catalogue) to allow the altissimo register to be played with the same fingerings as the low register, but sounding three 8ves higher. It has an extra speaker vent on the barrel with a piggyback-style key (like the open C# vent on most soprano saxes) so I bet they were on the repairer's bench more often than not.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-06-12 00:51
I played one of the original Marchis at the Clarinet Congress in London many years ago. If it had been a Buffet instead of a Selmer, I would have bought it on the spot. At that time, Selmers played with, for me, a shallow and blaring sound that I didn't like. It's a pity, since there are so many difficult clarion/altissimo crossings (e.g., the Saint-Saens Sonata 3rd Movement) that the Marchi did with ease.
Makers of other woodwinds are perfectly willing to supply extra keys. Look at the Heckel catalog sometime. It's a great pity that Buffet has zero flexibility or sense of adventure.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-06-12 04:21
Hi Ken, I was at that London congress too, about 1984 I think, and had quite a long conversation with Rosario Mazzeo whilst there, even got him to sign my copy of his book.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2016-06-12 10:01
Thank you for your exhaustive-but never exhausting-answers. I never cease to marvel at the amount of knowledge there is out there that finds itself into our forum. One last question: what's with the cone-shaped, very thin-walled bell on the Mazzeo? Is it for acoustic reasons or just to lighten up this instrument made heavy by the additional keys?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-06-12 10:42
Mazzeo said that his bell design improved the playing qualities of his clarinets. I'm not so sure, but they were on all clarinets with his action, even Bundys.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-06-12 11:31
There's no internal choke on the Mazzeo bells compared to regular bells where the diameter of the bore at the base of the bell socket is a tiny bit narrower than the end of the lower joint tenon flare bore - this can be felt by running your finger across the inside of the joint when the bells are on. Playing-wise I haven't noticed any difference in response though, so maybe it's more of an aesthetic thing.
Certainly is a bold visual statement having a trapezoid/truncated cone-shaped bell instead of the usual and more decorative bell with wider flare and metal ring or decorative turned rim.
But they are very light and feel incredibly delicate, so try not to subject them to accident or use stands that put outward pressure on them - a stand with a flat (and felt covered) base to support them (like an oboe stand) instead of using a stand where the bell is supported from the inside is important in every case.
This used to be an excellent resource, but is now a dead link. It had all manner of prototypes of Mazzeo's own clarinets - mostly Selmers but also a Buffet and maybe some others, but it's a shame it's no longer active as there were loads of photos on there.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/Mazzeoclarinets.html
But I just ran it through the Wayback machine and voila!
http://web.archive.org/web/20060202092224/http://www.usd.edu/smm/Mazzeoclarinets.html
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-06-12 15:27
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/Marchi.html
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/Marchis.html
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Blimey!
I counted about 20 keys and...if you add on all the extra rods to move the additional keys...it must weigh...what?
I'm grateful I play a twelve key simple system. It weighs just 608 gms!
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Author: James Langdell
Date: 2016-06-16 08:24
The content of that detailed checklist of Mazzeo instruments is at the new location of the web site.
http://nmmusd.org/Collections
I studied with Rosario Mazzeo, and have continued to play a Selmer 10 Bb and A set with the Mazzeo mechanism as my main instruments.
--James Langdell
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