 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-05-31 04:58
Have informally played Guitar, Mandolin, Banjo off & on most of my life, no formal music training except some guitar lessons in high school to get get started, and lately clarinet in May 2014 some lessons to get started. Have not and do not play in bands, groups or public but just as a hobbyist. Usually stuck to simple songs I liked but nothing difficult or challenging.
Now working with clarinet I need to know how to read and count more difficult musical pieces and having some issues with making the upper register across the break rapidly. Want to not only play but be able to write the music.
Main issue now though is, though I can sense the rhythm and memorize and play it, I do not really understand how to count and write the more difficult notes with ties, dots; mostly half, eighth, triplet,etc.
I tried searching online for counting tutorials but even these were difficult.
I was wondering if anyone knows any online tutorials and counting examples for different notes I could study. I see I will have to stop avoiding difficult things if I am going to progress.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2016-05-31 08:52
First: Reading music, and specifically rhythms, is hard! But you can learn, and the more you practise the better it gets. A lot of it is pattern recognition, but it's not something that you will perfect in a few weeks or even months
Second: What are you finding difficult? Is it reading rhythms in real time, or is it actually accurately reading a pattern? Give an example of something that is giving you problems
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-06-02 06:25
If I figure a way to say it I will post. Maybe just need to work at it. I think if I know how I want it to sound I dont know how to write the notes. And ways to count beats like dotted quarter notes and dotted half notes. How to count rhythm and how to write the notes once happy with the count. 3/4, 6/8, 9/8.
Looking for websites with examples of notes with the beats.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-06-02 06:45
Do you have a few musically knowledgeable friends who already know how to do this? Someone who reads music could show you the things you're asking much more simply than anyone could do it on the BB with words only.
Another possibility is to work through the first book of any instrument method book. If you live in the Hatboro area (as the header on your message shows), there's a Music and Arts store near you (email me for the exact location if you can't find it online - my email is in my profile). Look at Book1 of Standard of Excellence, Essential Elements 2000, Rubank Elementary method or any other band or clarinet method book they have in stock. Buy the one (or two) that seems clearest. Or ask the sales rep what book would be the best organized and easy to understand.
Standard music is created around a pulse, a steady "beat" that is, when notated, organized into groups. When written, these groups are visually separated by bar lines to make them easier to see and are called measures. The meters you ask about (4/4, 3/4, 6/8, 9/8) are just ways of grouping the beats into 4s, 3s, 6s and 8s (it gets a little more complicated than that later, but at the beginning that's all that's involved). The method books all explain (most beginners start out exactly where you are) how notes of various shapes relate to these beats and to each other - hopefully in a sequential way.
It would be best if someone who reads music could sit down with you and guide you through at least the first steps of reading (and writing). Doesn't need to be a clarinetist or even a music teacher, just a music-reading friend.
Karl
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-06-04 02:13
An example as I see it would be a 3/4, 3-beat, waltz time measure, that starts with an eighth note , ends with an eighth note, and in between seems to need 2-1/2 beats but I do not know how to put it on paper. The 1st and last 1/8 notes take up one beat, and what is in between must be something to use up the other beats. Sounds like DA-da -a-a-da. I know the sound but dont know how to put it in notes, or if I do I dont know f it is correct music notation.
Maybe a half or 1/4 or 1/8 note with ties or a rest to make the correct beats. I keep writing it then it doesnt seem correct so I keep trying. Right now I have a 1/8 note, a half note, a 1/8 rest and the final 1/8 note. Need someone to confirm it or tell me how to write it. Dont know any musicians who can tell me. That is the best I can explain it.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-06-05 13:44
If I'm following you correctly, which does involve a certain amount of guess work, you would write two 8th notes beamed as a pair followed by a single quarter note and then another pair of beamed 8th notes, giving you a total of five notes. Then add a tie between the second and third notes, and another tie between the third and fourth notes (ties leading both into and out of the quarter note).
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-06-05 15:04
When my wife taught beginner recorder players, she had them walk around the room in time with the beat. It works magic.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2016-06-05 19:05
You might consider SmartMusic http://www.smartmusic.com/. A one year subscription is $40. It has lots of rhythm/counting exercises (as well as a lot of music you can play along with.)
It's a really powerful and sophisticated educational tool. You can download it for free (PC and Ipad but not Mac) but I don't know how functional it is without a subscription.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-06-05 20:37
Ken's suggestion is an excellent one. A high proportion of established musicians tend to view marching band as a necessary evil to be avoided if possible. There is a reason there are so few (if any) "professional" marching bands outside the military. However, at least in this country, they are relatively common in schools that have been fortunate enough to be able to maintain a strong music program. When the jobs are clearly subdivided into maintaining the beat at one end of your body and playing the rhythm at the other end, it can be very helpful in learning to fit the rhythm cleanly around the beat.
Obviously, a 3/4 measure will contain three and only three beats and a quarter note will have the equivalent length of one beat. If the measure starts with an eighth note, the next note or series of notes will have to start on the up beat. If you don't have the basic three beats firmly established in your mind, that can cause confusion. If the measure also ended in an eighth note, there would be two and only two beat lengths between the two eighth notes. However, being based on the up beat (or off beat) it may seem longer to the untrained ear. There are many ways those two beat lengths could be divided but, using quarter notes and eighth notes the measure you describe would sound |dit/da-da/dit|. it would be counted evenly as |one/and-two-and-three/and|. If the passage is in 3/4 time, starts and ends with an eighth note, and has 2 1/2 beats between, the second eighth note would have to come on the first beat of the next measure.
There are, in fact, markings that can indicate an increase or decrease in the beat speed within a measure or group of measures or as little as a single measure could be given a different time signature. However, until you can get the rhythm wrapped cleanly around a uniform beat, going into them here would only cause confusion and, likely, inappropriate use. I think Ken's suggestion of making the passage whole body physical is going to be your best starting point. I am sure there are also many books available that can show you graphically how to accomplish and/or play a particular rhythm pattern. Good luck and don't give up. Music has all the variability of any other language.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-06-05 22:08
When I got bored in junior high school and misbehaved, I got sent to the Principal's office. Like everyone, I sat for 15 minutes in a hard chair in front of the official school pendulum clock to contemplate my sins before being called into the august presence of the Principal.
I used the time to watch the pendulum and engrave 60 beats per minute into my mental equipment. Over 50 years later, I can still count off 60 or 120 seconds in my head and come out pretty close. It's great for skipping commercials.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-06-05 23:44
BGBG -- I teach counting with beats and specific verbiage. In addition to that, when counting out loud, I only have my students say out loud exactly what they will play.
In 3/4 time:
3 quarter notes -- 1 2 3 1
6 eighth notes -- 1 + 2 + 3 + 1
12 sixteenths -- 1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 1
The verbiage is not tied to a specific note value, to how the beats are divided. Eights in 3/4 time = 1 + 2 + 3 +....
16ths in 3/8 time = 1 + 2 + 3 +....
Quarters in cut time = 1 + 2 + 3 +....
I'm confused by your example: Quote:
An example as I see it would be a 3/4, 3-beat, waltz time measure, that starts with an eighth note , ends with an eighth note, and in between seems to need 2-1/2 beats but I do not know how to put it on paper.
It adds up to 3.5 beats? You have to resolve that before you're going to be able to write it down. Are there three notes in the measure as you hear it?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-06-06 00:04
My example could be wrong. I will read over and study the above posts and see just what I am sure of. I feel there is something not quite right but I am failing to identify just what it is. What I wanted was some opinions and information, and now I must review. Thanks.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-06-06 02:52
Tobin: Are you using the plus sign to indicate the syllable "plus" or the syllable "and". If the latter, we are definitely on the same page. If the former, we are just using a different syllable to break up the time interval.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-06-06 03:04
Ken: I learned in a photographic darkroom with a clicking timer. But, yes, once you have that tempo burned in, it does stay with you.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-06-06 06:01
Attachment: image.jpeg (40k)
One of the best methods for some of us ancient ones on this Bboard was the Vocal Method book - "Rhythmical Articulation" by Pasquale Bona. Great aide in sight-reading and counting time.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-06-06 06:51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7BtqvnKJEY
To make it easier, listen to the first two what I think are 3/4 time measures. I do not know how to upload but I copy/pasted the URl.
I originally started with some downloaded sheet music which did not seem to be written like it sounded and have been trying to adapt it using the sheet music as an example, but ran into confusion and how to write the notes as I heard them. Am thinking maybe it is only two 1/8 pickup notes, a 3 note measure, a two 1/8 and a triplet, a rest, and two 1/8 notes in the first three measures but am not at all sure. Spending a lot of time getting it right but getting nowhere. It will seem correct then next day unsure. Can't be this difficult.
Simply put, it sounds to me like it is just 3 and / 1, 2, 3 and / 1, 2, & 3 & / but that still is not exactly what I mean. I'm like musically dyslexic. Like I can say cat, can recognize a cat, but I cant spell it on paper. I cannot even ask the question or give the example. Just need to be told by someone who knows and accept it. Like teacher tells the student. This is keeping me up every night.
Post Edited (2016-06-06 09:38)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-06-06 20:35
Listen to the guitar strum in the background. That is establishing the clear three beat framework. To my ear, it sounds like two sixteenth note pickups to a half note on one and two of the next measure (A = 1/16 pickup, di = 1/16 pickup, new measure, os = 1/2 note followed by 1/8 rest or 1/2 note tied to 1/8 note). The upbeat of three is either an eighth note pickup or two sixteenth note pickups depending on the lyrics. The half note could actually be two quarter notes (tied or not) followed by an eighth rest followed by the pick up to the next measure or a quarter note followed by a quarter note tied to an eighth note followed by the pickup to the next measure or a quarter note followed by a dotted quarter note followed by the pickup to the next measure. Tap your hand on a surface with the guitar strum and listen to how the lyrics fit around that. It's a little difficult to hear EXACTLY what the vocal notation is because he uses a slight rubato (see rubato on Google) to suit the lyrics. However, the guitar strum gives a clear and consistent three beat framework around which it is built. The notation for the lyrics is probably relatively consistent from measure to measure leaving it to the vocalist to fit the lyrics in such a way that he can control the feel of the song. For example, the pick up notes of "adios" could be sung as equal sixteenth notes (as in your sample) or more like a dotted sixteenth followed a thirty second giving it more of an aaaaaa-di-osssss feel.
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-06-07 06:45
I agree. That sounds like what I am hearing. Was not sure what kind of notes could be tied together and lost confidence. Need more study and practice for not used to doing this. Thanks for the explanation.
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-06-10 07:04
Not used to working with 1/8 and 1/16notes but I am catching on. I find it works better if I count it like 6 beats per measure of 1/8 notes, throwing in an "and" as needed if it is one or two 1/16 notes. The dotted notes will take some some more work but I am determined to understand it.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-06-11 00:34
You're on the right track. A dotted quarter note would be counted like four eighth notes "one-and-two-and" etc. with the first three tied. A dotted eighth note would be played like four sixteenth notes "one - e - and - a" etc. with the first three tied. A one beat triplet would be counted "trip - a - let". That will also give you 6/8 time conducted in two. Just add ties as needed or further subdivide the triplet to get the rhythms you need. A two beat triplet would be like two one beat triplets with the notes tied in pairs. A little more difficult, but when it drops in it just "feels right". Just don't try to go too quickly. Make sure you have one pattern down cold before you move to the next. I remember the books I started with started with whole notes. Then we went to half notes. Then we went to a mixture of whole and half notes. Then we went to quarter notes, etc., etc., etc. It's like learning a language. You start with a word or phrase and practice it until it becomes automatic. Then you add another word or phrase and practice that. Then you put the two together and practice that. And so on. When someone asks me how many languages I speak, I include Basic, Algol, Cobol, Fortran, and Music in my count.
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-06-25 20:18
In spare time I have finally gotten the lyrics and the notes written out on staff paper where they look and sound correct and same as song as near as I can tell. Must be the most difficult song I have ever worked on. But when I count it slowly in eighth notes, listen, compare it suits me finally. Thanks for the tips. Now if I can learn to quickly finger some of the notes so can play it up to speed I shall be happy and content. I had originally started with some online sheet music but when listened to the recording I realized it did not seem exactly the same as sung.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-06-28 09:23
I find for students it can be very helpful at first to look at rhythms like words.
Do not work on dotted rhythms until you can do all of the following with ease:
quarter, eights, triplets, sixteenths.
I like to use the following words because they form coherent sentences:
For quarter say "pie"
For eight say "Ap-ple" (make sure it's even!)
Triplets replace two notes with three. That's it.
For triplets say "straw-ber-ry"
And sixteenths are exactly twice as fast as eights.
For sixteenths say "huck-le-ber-ry"
What's great about this system is suddenly you can even say something rather complex, like a quintuplet. Just pick a 5 syllable word (I use "sas-ka-toon-ber-ry"... but this is an obscure local fruit, so something else might be better.)
Anyways, work on this a lot until you can say and clap any basic musical phrase WHILE TAPPING YOUR FOOT. This last part is very important since the foot is giving the beat or pulse. You will have to practice this a little bit every day, it won't come without practice.
Then, try to play the patterns by tonguing an open note, hearing the words in your head.
After the words are easy, you can try it with "proper" counting later.
Have fun!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2016-06-28 10:03
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> What's great about this system is suddenly you can even say
> something rather complex, like a quintuplet. Just pick a 5
> syllable word (I use "sas-ka-toon-ber-ry"... but this is an
> obscure local fruit, so something else might be better.)
I've always used the word "pharmaceutical" for a quintuplet.
Somehow, students seem to remember it.
...GBK
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