 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JanC
Date: 2016-05-29 20:38
I have a Buffet Prestige Bass to Low C and have a real problem with over-blowing the register G (ie. G just above the stave). I'm hoping someone out there can throw some wisdom my way to help me resolve this.
I have tried a variety of mouthpieces :- the original Buffet, a Zinner and currently use Selmers - I have an F and a G.
I have also tried many different makes and strengths of reeds - currently using Vandorens, 1.5 or 2 as the Selmer mouthpieces have wide tip openings.
The G is ok if I nudge it out gently, but as soon as I put the slightest force into it, it leaps up to a high E, ie. as though my LH first finger has lifted.
(Not sure if this is related, but I sometimes have a similar problem with the Eb as well (ie. 4th space on the stave Eb))
I've had techs check it out and they say everything is ok, setup, pads etc, but this is driving me crazy and totally spoils my enjoyment of playing bass.
Any suggestions would be most welcome.
Thanks.
Jan
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-05-29 21:49
Register mechanism can be delicate. Perhaps the spring on the rod that transfers from the bridge to the register is weak? Or a leak somewhere. G shouldn't be a finicky note. Maybe try a different repair person. It takes some work with a really good person to get these things dialed in. One screw can be a little off and the whole thing doesn't work.
One thing I've gotten in the habit of doing every time I put the bass together is finding the exact right spot for the bridge. I play 1&1 b flat, and if it isn't sealing I rotate the top joint slightly clockwise until it does. And I gently close the F from the second register G. If it doesn't seal cleanly I rotate the top joint slightly anti-clockwise until it does. There is one exact spot where both things work, and a hair either way makes a difference. Any complaints I have about the instrument come after that point is reached.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-05-29 23:51
I could be the instrument. Leaks can be VERY difficult to locate. I sometimes have to tear off all the upper joint keys and test each one as I reassemble.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Mirko996
Date: 2016-05-30 00:22
I never played Bass clarinet, but i play tenor sax and i could image what is the problem, because I play the tenor sax with the same embouchure of the clarinet and it's incorrect because I don't give the possibility of the reeds to vibrate. I think is the same of the bass clarinet. You haven't to change your embouchure, but remember, you are not playing a Soprano Clarinet, you are playing a Bass Clarinet, and all notes are lower octave than soprano clarinet, so it's more difficulty to play lower register. I don't suggest, for now, to take mouthpiece, I suggest to use a normal ligature which close very well and sofly reeds if you are not used to play strong reeds... In my case, I play or Jody Jazz 7 or Vandoren 7Jb with reeds measure 3.5 and a normal ligature, the same is for my piccolo clarinet, is a noblet, and i use Vandoren B44 reeds measure 3 (I use B flat reeds modify, I need to buy stronger reeds than this because I don't like. I used Rico Royal 5 and are softly :D) and fortunaly for the piccolo i haven't problem. You need time a more time to reach low register. But if you think to have a problem, before to go to repairer, use the sigarette maps and try to see if closing the pads the sigarette maps it remains blocked or is always moving. In the case if it moves bring it to show to repairer.
I hope you'll fix the problem.
Good music.
Mirko
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-05-30 03:07
Hi Jan,
Perhaps it's a voicing issue? In the clarion range (especially the middle clarion), you absolutely must have a very high tongue position and fast air for notes to speak correctly/clearly/cleanly. Are you using the "ee" vowel to position the back of your tongue?
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-05-30 04:05
The upper speaker vent (on the crook) isn't ideally placed for the notes E to G# as they ideally need another vent placed in between the two.
But for simplicity and maybe that old chestnut called tradition, Boehm system basses still use just two fully automatic speaker vents instead of what the German makers have already been doing for some time by fitting three fully automatic speaker vents (operated with a single thumb touch) to help these mid-upper register notes speak easier and cleaner.
On Buffet, Selmer and Yamaha pro level basses, the speaker mechanism will perform the same function in having the lower vent open for throat Bb to upper register Eb, then the lower vent closes and the upper vent opens when RH3 is released for the notes E to high C.
But on full Oehler system basses, the lower vent (just as on Boehm system basses) is open from throat Bb to upper register Eb. Then releasing RH3 allows the lower vent to close and the middle vent to open for the notes E-G#. And then when LH3 is released, the middle vent closes and the top vent opens for the notes A to high C.
And they've been doing that for many decades.
So with this age of cross pollination when German ideas are increasingly being added to Boehm system clarinets (but not vice versa so it seems), why can't makers of Boehm system basses at least adopt the triple speaker vent mechanism which could save a lot of anguish on the players' part.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-05-30 05:43
I've looked into the resistance issue in the E to G# range recently. Proper voicing gets around the problem well enough, but it certainly would be nice if there were a design solution for Boehm system basses. I've discussed this with both Stephen Fox and Wolfgang Lohff. Both tell me that triple venting does absolutely nothing to address this problem - it simply improves the tuning of the long twelfths. The superiority of Oehler basses in this range is due to the difference in bore design.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-05-30 08:26
If it's just the G then it's unlikely to be a register mechanism issue or a voicing issue... so the question is, is it only the G? Are notes around it like F, F#, G# and A completely fine?
It's still possible that for you, a voicing or register mech issue will happen only (or more significantly) on the G, it's just not so likely.
One possibility is that the left hand stack isn't adjusted so the "Bis" Eb/Bb key isn't closing. What can happen is that it closes with right hand notes, so it's ok from B/F# down. It will also affect notes up to D#/A#, but G is the lowest note where this problem would affect so would be the worst, plus the lowest register is affected much less by something like this. Also unlikely to have no effect at all even on G#, so again the question is how are the notes around G?
Do you notice any problem if you press the keys with more force? Or doesn't make any difference?
The Eb is weirder because that's actually a very good note on the Buffet 1193. The G is also not an especially problematic note, at least not more than some notes around it.
>> Both tell me that triple venting does absolutely nothing to address this problem - it simply improves the tuning of the long twelfths. <<
That's not exactly true. I've made a interchangeable register vent to have different sizes and they absolutely make a difference. I don't use the stock vent hole size. The biggest difference is on the E, which struggles to come out cleanly when played in a very specific way with the stock vent hole size. Three vents might not help with the specific "voicing issue" of the F# to B area, but it can help significantly anyway. A change in the other directly improves altissimo. Whether the hassle/cost/etc. is worth the improvement is personal preference I guess.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-05-30 18:18
Try another bass clarinet. Have another player try yours. See if the problem stays with you or the instrument.
Try voicing excercises. Play a C just below the staff then without adding the octave key voice it up to the G, then the E. Then back down and jump around to gain more control.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-05-30 19:36
Messed around with this some this morning. A poor seal on any of the pads from the first finger on up can cause a problem like described, as though you left that little hole uncovered. A, G#, trill keys, could be anywhere, and sometimes it's a weak spring. I agree about trading instruments with another player to try, but a leak is the simplest explanation, G should be stable.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2016-05-30 23:36
Had the same problem way back in the day when I played Buffet bass clarinet.
Chris P. hit the nail right on the head - the problem is acoustical; that particular G falls in the crack between the two register vents, making it a note that is not comfortable with either. Experienced players with similar instruments have learned to voice/support that note so that it can be attacked with some reliability. Can be a problem in some orchestral works -- notably Copland "El Salon Mexico" bassoon bass clarinet duet.
I've heard that the Buffet Tosca instruments have added a third register vent; that would solve the problem mechanically!
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-05-31 00:33
I disagree about the acoustical problem to some extent. I've got two 1193s and don't think there's anything inherently unstable about the G. I'm not endorsing Buffet, either, the note is simply not a problem. Not even in El Salon Mexico. The second register as a whole is fine. The E/B twelfth, on the other hand, sucks. Planning to have a third register mechanism a la Tosca added this summer.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-05-31 01:08
I have far more trouble with the upper register F# than any other note. It is best played with the chromatic/cross key fingering xxx|xo,o as that has less resistance compared to the standard fingering xxx|oxo as the chromatic/cross key fingering isn't a forked note.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Greg H
Date: 2016-05-31 04:00
As far as I can tell after playing a Tosca bass and comparing it to my 1193, the Tosca has a dedicated throat Bb vent. The vent on the body was moved to enhance the notes B,C, C#, D and D# in the staff, which necessitated a separate vent for the Bb. I think the bore was slightly changed (reduced?) to help that range and the notes above. In regard to the E/B twelfth, I think the Low Eb tonehole was moved up to sharpen the Low E, as the B the twelfth above is no longer sharp due to the vent relocation. I enjoyed trying the Tosca but I am sticking with my 39,000 series 1193, which has an added vent to sharpen the formerly flat low E- and Chris P, I am agreement, the F# on top of the staff using the normal fingering is the most problematic for me.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-05-31 07:25
The design flaw of the Buffet register tube is an entirely different matter than triple venting. Conflating the two is nonsensical.
Chrip P,
Indeed. The middle finger F# is the most problematic note on my Selmer.
Greg H,
You are quite right. The top vent on the body is relocated on the Tosca to correct for the sharp right hand. The "Bright Bb" marketing-speak is aimed at clarinetists rather than bass clarinetists.
Chris
Post Edited (2016-05-31 07:32)
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2016-06-01 03:14
Perhaps try adjusting the height of the reed in the different mouthpiece/ligature combinations, and adjusting the position of the ligature. It sounds like your particular combination of reed/mpc/lig/mouth positions may be favoring that E. I have found it effective to shave a bit of the reed adjacent to and slightly behind the heart that affects a range of notes, and perhaps you can find a place to adjust that will help your situation.
Also, in hard-to-trace problems, be aware of minor details, e.g. it happens after you play a while = water lodging in strange places; key positions below the note affects the problem; spring/key resonances (have someone feel each key as you play); etc.
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Author: JanC
Date: 2016-06-01 14:06
Thanks so much for all the advice. Will try out all your tips to eliminate all possibilities.
I have tried a friends's bass (same model) and have no problem but, ironically, he didn't have the same problem on my bass (go figure!!!)
One thing that has occurred to me is that I am very short and so my posture and hand position is totally dictated by how to manage to reach the RH pinkie keys. I bought a second crook and had Howarth's customise it to lower the angle and reduce the overall height by a couple of inches - however this does mean I'm using more of a sax embouchure than a clarinet one. (Should that be a problem? I am a sax player as well.)
I think I'm puting full pressure on all the keys, but I'm never sure if there's a possibility that some fingers are just losing a little pressure at some angles. Trying to play my dodgy G using RH fingers to put pressure on top of LH fingers doesn't make any difference.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-06-01 16:25
Try playing on a less open tip mouthpiece.
Also make sure that you are not taking too much mouthpiece in your mouth.
In this regard, a mouthpiece with a long facing and a very open tip will not be your friend.
Although I agree with the advice about checking the horn for leaks. This issue is almost always an issue of voicing the notes correctly, with an embouchure that is firm, but allows NO biting. As soon as you bite it this range, the instrument will want to leap to the next partial.
As said above, try other basses with your regular mouthpiece. If the problem persists try a mouthpiece with a closer tip.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Confiure your own set-up
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-06-03 07:11
We have a bass clarinet player who recently purchased a new Buffet. She was finding it uncomfortable to play until she stacked two chairs together and sat on the top one. Apparently, with a single chair, she was having to sit in an uncomfortable position in order to get the embouchure right. She does already play with the peg almost completely retracted.
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