 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: smk
Date: 2016-05-17 05:53
Once one is (say) 20 feet away from a clarinetist, I think all the differences between one ligature and another virtually disappear. Why pay more than $20 for one?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-05-17 06:07
To the extent they improve the player's comfort level, they matter. The audience may not hear the difference in sound, but the performance they hear may be overall more convincing and secure.
Does a $100+ price tag get a player that much more comfort? I have no idea, but someone must think so.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-05-17 06:07
Assuming you are correct about a ligature's sound differences not carrying well into the distant crowd--itself an idea debated on this bboard quick vigorously, there is a school of thought that says essentially that because you think you play better (and just might), that even if you don't, this placebo effect gives you confidence, and that confidence actually helps you play better.
The advantanges of different ligatures, whether they exist, and whether they're worth the money is probably one of the single most contested things we talk about here.
I, like you, am not a great fan of ligatures. For me the device has to pass a basic competency test of holding the reed to the mouthpiece. But others feel differently, especially some of the really advanced players who might have the sensitivity to
feel changes that the subordinate player might not.
Since we don't agree on what is the best clarinet sound--and that's perfectly okay--I suspect getting us to concur on what's best in "reed straps" is an even bigger pipe dream.
Post Edited (2016-05-17 06:09)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-05-17 06:38
I realize that this is not really the question you are asking, but I have to say that, at least indirectly, my playing was improved by a ligature. At one point, when the ligature discussion was going hot and heavy on this bboard, I decided to try wrapping my reed on with a shoe lace. That allowed me to discover that I was putting a sideways force on the reed with my jaw, without realizing it, that tended to push the reed out of line. Once I noticed that, I continued using the shoe lace until I was able to consistently correct the problem before I went back to my regular ligature. For me, that led to an improvement in my overall tone. As far as whether or not a diamond encrusted, gold plated, cryogenically treated ligature would make a difference, I have no idea. My budget limits me to $30 to $50 max. on a ligature.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-05-17 06:50
There are small differences among ligatures. However, the placebo effect is stronger than any of them.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-05-17 08:58
It doesn't really matter at what distance it makes or doesn't make a difference. Different ligatures absolutely make a difference because they hold the reed slightly differently (for a start changing the tip opening). They don't make a difference in the way some claim, with the material itself vibrating and causing a change in sound.
I've posted before how some years ago I had a problem with the sound feeling a bit "choked". Then by coincidence an alto sax player and I tried each other's ligatures, not expecting any difference. To my surprise, the "choked" sound disappeared and was easily heard by both of us and another non-woodwind player in the room who mentioned it without us asking. I then tried all my other ligatures and found that they were all fine and only that one I was using had the problem. The difference was like a good vs. bad reed, I just never thought it could be the ligature until that moment.
Post Edited (2016-05-19 08:14)
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Author: nron
Date: 2016-05-17 09:39
Yeap they matter
Things I like to look for in a ligature are how articulation feels, whether it helps me tongue faster or hinders it, and also the tuning, projection and clarity in the high notes ( maybe G that sits on top of the stave and beyond). Lastly, it can be nice to have a ligature with big screws that are comfortable to adjust and a ligature that will clamp nice and tight so won't move around if you're moving your mouthpiece between clarinets (or just tuning for a saxophone).
It can be difficult to feel and hear differences between ligatures in same price bracket but I think it becomes more apparent if you compare a good $20 lig to an s tier $150 one (an unfair comparison but maybe it will give you a clue what to look for).
Ultimately I think the ligature is for the player and it makes parts of playing easier. The listener probably won't be able to tell a difference but when I started high school I always wanted one of those upside down cloth ligatures and thought they were a sign of a good player
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-05-17 10:25
The difference may not be obvious to a listener, but they certainly make a difference to the way they feel to me. I have a shoe box full of ligatures, all tried and tested. Some are squeak-inducing, some make me sound stuffy, some work well. Most of them are discards, but a few I'l keep and use. Not because they necessarily sound better/different, but they make me feel better.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-05-17 14:33
They keep the reed on the mouthpiece, so that's important. Unless you have one that slips at the worst possible opportunity when you go to remove the mouthpiece to change instruments so you're left with everything in bits in your hand with just seconds to get it all back together again and on the other clarinet before your next entry.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-05-17 18:36
The reed and air column form a vibrating system. With any vibrating system, the locations and stiffness of the mounting point(s) of the vibrating elements have a significant effect on the modes (wavelengths) of vibration and the amount of damping of each of those modes. The length of the lay (curved portion of the mouthpiece facing) with respect to where the ligature mounting points are, also has an effect.
To that extent, a particular ligature can affect how a particular reed works on a particular mouthpiece (for a particular player, whose embouchure position and force also affect the vibrating system). Even worse, a particular mouthpiece/reed/ligature combination may perform well on some notes of the instrument but poorly on others.
As usual with musical instrument acoustics, it's neither simple nor intuitive. A ligature that works well with one reed on one mouthpiece may not work so well with a different reed on the same mouthpiece, or any reed on another mouthpiece, etc. That's why we're constantly fooling around with ligatures. On the bright side, as long as the ligature is not set so far forward that it's actually forcing the reed down on the curved facing ("choking" the reed as Nitai described), most ligatures should work reasonably well.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-05-17 19:05
If a ligature makes a big difference, check your mouthpiece table and Reed for flatness. When they are not flat, the contact points of the ligature plays off of the irregularities in positive and negative ways depending on its design. I think this is why some of us experience significant differences on some mouthpiece/ligature combinations and none on others.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-17 19:12
David- I recently rediscovered on my own the "choking" you describe, nothing is ever new in the clarinet world. Moving further down the mouthpiece was a plus for me, of course I'd varied position many times but for whatever reason had settled for some months too far forward. I had even asked here whether it was unusual to feel my chin touching the ligature, I'll have to go look if somebody cautioned me against choking and I missed it.
Anyway, yes- ligature does matter. I suggest perhaps testing 3 or 4 reasonably priced and widely used options- "round up the usual suspects"- and choose 1 or 2 to keep and try to stay with. Then when you're having unusual trouble, or just feel like varying something, you can swap around and see if on that particular day another works better. Even so, that may or may not suggest a "permanent" change.
But- position, tightness, and other adjustments (bending or trimming things etc) can be a bigger deal than which ligature. You may want to systematically explore those (the non-destructive ones, anyway) before swapping ligatures. Bending a $20 ligature is less stressful than a $100 one.
All that being said, time with the music is more important than minor equipment adjustments, most of the time. Your mileage may vary.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-05-17 19:22)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-17 20:19
As Stan talks about, the tension on the reed is a big part of the equation. If you habitually really lock down your ligature (for whatever the important reason is to you) there WILL be a more pronounced difference from one design to another and one material to another. If you just barely put any pressure on the reed at all (so light that you can spin the reed off axis with your tongue) then the ligature becomes more "invisible" to the system.
And you can experiment with this for free with whatever you presently use.
For a basic ligature that is clearly superior in every way I recommend the Rovner Light. After that, all bets are off.
Bottom line though, YOU as the player are NOT 15 feet away, and YOU should be happy with your sound. So you should do what you want to be happy with it even if that means you sometimes really tax the law of diminishing returns.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Riley-NZL
Date: 2016-05-18 00:59
Function and aesthetic?
I've just bought new ligatures for both my borrowed clarinet and bass clarinet. Ther both came with horrible, two tightening knob designs, and both are in a dreadful rusted/corroded state.
As far as I'm concerned, any difference in sound between ligatures, is something I wouldn't even be able to perceive. So for me, something that looks good, and will stay looking good, and functions well is all that is important (ie, is easy to place the reed on, and the reed stays in place).
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-05-18 01:05
clarnibass: I don't understand how a reed's tip opening on a mouthpiece is affected by a competent ligature (i.e. one that simply holds well and reliably.) As long as the lig is grabing the reed someplace where it sits on the mouthpiece table (as it should), and the reed is essentially flat (which I believe it should be made to be it's not) I can't see tip opening being affected.
Perhaps you want to share something I'm missing.
To those who feel ligatures matter (which I respect but am not a strong proponent of), how many believe (fair question, not sarcasm) they could pick out their lig among the others in their collection if they could not see or touch their ligatures while they played them? (In fairness David Blumberg (who I think could blindly find his lig) recently DID run the equivalent of a preliminary blind test with pro (for clarity: the opposite of "con," NOT short for "professional") the ligature matters results.)
How many choose a cheaper ligature in their arsenal of ligs, (some higher priced) as their favorite?
How many think, even pro ligature believers, that it's possible we tend to talk about and futz with them too much, relative to other clarinet topics, compared to their importance?
I should clarify that question. It doesn't imply desire that we should or shouldn't talk about something else, it simply asks why, for example, intensive etude study, an undisputed method of maximizing play tends to get less airtime than ligatures: an area where we hold different opinions on their utility.
And maybe it's just because talking gear is simply more fun.
Not judging, just trying to understand. And nobody said both can't be addressed concurrently.
I will say this, albeit tongue-in-cheek: I'd contemplate shooting any student (for his/her own good) who would futz with ligatures at the expense of time spent with the etude books.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-18 01:20
"WhitePlainsDave,"
I can take that on a little bit. I believe most mouthpiece tables are not completely flat. Some have a concavity, others dip off toward the heel (some German mouthpieces).
But whatever the table issue, your reed is not going to be perfectly flat. So if one ligature allows enough wiggle room for the reed to bend out (for example) that will affect the tip opening.
Here's were I can see a difference. I am using Legere German cut reeds (they are mostly transparent. They also work best once the reed has accumulated moisture beneath them, so I wet the Legeres. Putting on different ligatures on the same mouthpiece with the same reed, I can actually see the moisture line under the reed move higher with some ligatures than others (weird, right?). So it's not all just crazy talk.
The other two resonance issues are with the reed and with the mouthpiece. Some ligatures damp more of one than the other or both. Each of those change the sound vis a vie upper partials depending on how much which one is damped and to what extent.
As I said, when you apply minimal (almost non existent) ligature pressure, the difference amongst ligatures drops dramatically.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: smk
Date: 2016-05-18 02:55
This is the original bad boy who posed the question. This has been a interesting and informative discussion. I think I should tell you what I have learned, or think I have learned, after 65 years of playing and amassing an embarrassing collection of ligatures.
Some ligatures, the metal ones, do offer the player more of the treble aspects of his/her tone, and the cloth or leather ones give a more rounded gentler version of the tone.
And some ligatures give the impression of allowing the player to produce a strong or loud tone with less effort than other ligatures.
This is all when using the same reed on the same mouthiece in the same position.
So those who have mentioned the comfort or the satisfaction of the player certainly will get agreement from me.
What I don't know is whether any of these differences are audible to an audience.
So, for me, the selection criteria include decent looks, being easy to put on without damaging a reed or the mouthpiece, and firmly holding the reed in place so it doesn't move during normal playing activities.
I'd love to buy a Silverstein, and have my playing transformed into something much more resonant and beautiful than it is. But I haven't ever tried any ligature that made a significant difference in the things I care about strongly.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2016-05-18 03:28
I play vintage instruments and mouthpieces, and for me the value of a ligature is whether or not it can fit around the fat old glass and rubber Selmer mpcs of the 30s/40s. The best I have is an older reverse Bonade with the rails coated in teflon. It fits, easily, around any mpc.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2016-05-18 03:53
WhitePlainsDave:
I think you answered your own question when it comes to etude work. Since there is no dispute as to whether or not it matters if you study intensively, there is less room for the discussion. I would be intensely interested in a discourse on etude effectiveness at various levels of play, which etudes would be recommended at those levels, what do various etudes focus on, and the general philosophy of clarinet instruction, but that is a matter for another topic.
With regarding ligatures, I generally rate their effectiveness in four subjective areas:
Resistance
Tone
Ease of Assembly
Cost
To that end, my current favorite is the Ishimori Solid Silver ligature, but I recognize that the cost of the ligature does not necessarily justify the amount of improvement I believe I gain.
-Daniel
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-05-18 06:46
derf5585 wrote:
> I have even tried velcro
>
I always keep a small Velcro piece in my case for that person whose ligature breaks or bends before a performance. Fits every mouthpiece, plays just fine.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: jrain54
Date: 2016-05-19 04:05
My teacher actually recently recommended me getting a new ligature and she suggested this one:
http://www.saxandwoodwind.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=933
It's quite pricey, so I'd expect it to be significantly better than a normal silver ligature but I guess small differences in playing can have big impacts as many of you have all mentioned. It does look quite fancy though!
I'll just have to see
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-05-21 06:14
But my answer for real is, yes, I think a ligature matters. I think it's a small difference between them, and for me it's more about the response I get with a reed and a given ligature, and NOT the sound as I think the sound will be pretty much the same no matter which ligature.
So I carry two ligatures with me at all times. A Silverstein ligature which offers very quick response (I use it on reeds that might be a little too thick or otherwise seem sluggish to respond when tonguing). I also have a rovner versa x. The fabric side to dull an overly thin or bright sounding reed, and metal plate if it needs to be brightened or response needs to be quickened and the silversteing feels a little too bright that day.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-05-21 08:47
Without going into detail the answer is YES!Big time!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: jack
Date: 2016-05-22 09:11
Last night I attended a concert in Altadena, CA, sponsored by the Asia / America New Music Institute (AANMI). The music was indeed new and exuberantly wonderful. The Clarinet player was James Sullivan, who resides in Altadena, CA. The tone and sound of his clarinet was beautiful, strong and just sounded as wonderful as any that I have heard. (Although I have played as an amateur since 5th grade, it is difficult (impossible?) to describe the sound. But I have heard many clarinetists in many settings and Mr. Sullivan sounded the equal or better as any). His ligature is my all time favorite: The Ishimori Silver. (Clarinet was Buffet, I didn't inquire as to the model).
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-05-25 03:41
I have made recordings and concluded that ligatures do matter, at least if you move from thick fabrics to metal. I play the Rovner ligatures that cover that variance. In that recording session the ligatures created more variation than the Grabner G13 and K13 mouthpieces did.
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Author: Cahsual Stephen
Date: 2016-05-25 05:05
I personally like different ligatures for different uses. When I need a freer tone, I like to use my Rovner Dark, as it give the reed more freedom to vibrate. When I need consistency I like my unnamed, beat to crap, tarnishing metal ligature that came with my O'Brien Crystal. I also love the very bright and fuzzy sound that I can get on my friend's Rovner Versa. It's really about how the reed vibrates and how the ligature controls the vibrations.
Post Edited (2016-05-25 05:11)
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Author: Zain
Date: 2016-05-27 05:52
I know that after trying a vast array of ligatures, at least to the amateur clarinetist like myself, when I play my BG Revelation and then my Silverstein Cryo, the difference in a very competent ligature and a truly superior ligature is evident. Whether this free blowingness, tonal adjustability, and aesthetic placebo booster is worth 140 more dollars is up to your wallet, but I would not spend my money any other way when I comes down to it.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-05-27 12:04
Put a blindfold on me and line up 20 ligatures for me to test. I will pick mine every time! It's a reverse Bonade, with some "Stuff," added to it and some metal gutted out of it to make it as light as possible.
Mouthpieces vibrate so cloth types and soft plastic types of ligature materials deadens the vibrations of the reeds and the mouthpieces giving players a false sense of a dark sound up close. A mouthpiece needs to have that ping. What you hear up close isn't always what you the audience hears just 10 to maybe 20 feet away. Marcellus once told me he often looks for a kind of buzzy sounding reed. We all know his recordings don't sound buzzy. I don't think he explained the word buzz to me correctly, because when I sat next to him he didn't sound buzzy. He was playing on a Morre reed as we were testing out the German Steuer reeds.
He used a Bonade ligature and a Kasper Cicero #13
[ Edited - GBK ]
So ligatures will drive you nuts. I don't know what Harold Wright played on, but Gennusa also used a Bonade. We all know that these guys had wicked great sounds. I would think that Wright used a Bonade at one point in his career, if not all of his career.
Last comment, that ping in the mouthpiece sound is so important. Once you hear it you will never forget it.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-05-27 12:07)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-05-30 01:21
Harold Wright used a regular front load ligature from some rather generic company..maybe leblanc and also he used the Bay reverse for quite a long time. As for ligatures we may be more beholden to the design of the Blank..ie.. Babbit vs. Zinner Vs. whatever
David Dow
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