 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Napat Techa.
Date: 2016-05-17 18:49
How to practice to get faster fingers to play on some difficult passages ???
#sorry for bad grammars
...Sorry for my bad English...
Thank you !!!!!
Intermediate clarinetist . Buffet Crampon RC . Nick Solist M Mouthpiece. V12 3.5. Ishimori gold plated ligature and Rovner Versa ligature.
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2016-05-17 19:36
Search here on the BBoard for many answers: some short, some lengthy.
The most tried and true: start slow and sure, then slowly increase tempo.
Metronome certainly helps with keeping yourself steady and slow.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-17 20:12
One thing for sure is that coordination is the key factor. Practicing so that the "trouble spot" is steady and spot on is essential to build that "memory" (whether you call it 'muscle memory' or 'spinal memory' or whatever).
An odd thing that I've found recently is that slow extension (splaying the fingers out) exercise seems to help quite a bit.
[That is: an exercise separate from practicing, such as when you are sitting around watching TV]
I even noticed that there was a bit of muscle soreness under my right forearm afterwards indicating that this motion was a bit foreign for me. But after a few days I noticed more dexterity when playing. It works for me. Try it; if it helps, great; if not don't continue.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2016-05-17 20:30)
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Author: Owen
Date: 2016-05-17 20:23
Efficient fingers = fast fingers. The farther off the finger board it takes longer for them to return to set position.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2016-05-17 20:33
short term: be sure you don't have flying fingers where they are too high above the tone holes. If they have too far to go to reach the keys that can slow you down.
long term: all kinds of scales and arpeggios. If you have many patterns learned well, then speed comes along with it.
difficult passages: do a search on this Bboard as there are lots of good ideas to be found.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-05-17 21:37
Watching YouTube videos of great players, one is sometimes amazed at how wild their fingers can get. Example: Martin Frost. Frequently his fingers don't look "efficient" at all. Unless the music really makes them have to be.
I've seen that with some pianists too.
I think smooth fast players are fast in other ways than just fingers. They clearly visualize stuff at high speed and react. And, I suspect that all can be improved with practice.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-05-18 01:15
Napat: the topic's well covered by my predecessors above--I'd only restate the things they've said --which I agree with.
Instead, maybe some inspiration..... Years ago, "the" finger guy in the teaching world, IMHO, was Kal Opperman.
His loving students set up a website memorial to him. You might enjoy hearing the fast finger exercises there:
http://www.kalmenopperman.com/music__audio
A student of Opperman's, Adam Ebert, appears several times at this link.
Watch him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWigDvhiVJk
see how those fingers don't move anymore than they have to (as per Owen above?) That's clarinet poetry in motion!
I have a theory that you can almost spot an Opperman student by their fingers!
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-05-23 05:55
There's something called Classical Fingers. It's not gimmicky considering that Mark Nuccio was about to make them, but someone else got to making them before he did, haha. It's well worth the investment. I haven't been using them, which is a mistake, but when I did I noticed my playing got a lot better.
Of course this invention isn't the shortcut. Slow practice is needed too.
I remember my bass clarinet teacher Ryan Yure giving me a tip. He said that he once asked hi oboe friend who had phenomenal legato fingers "How do you play so smoothly?" He replied, "I just practice my fingers." So what the oboe player told him to do was to practice slowly with the just the fingers pressing down on the keys as lightly as possible and to coordinate the keys exactly together. When doing that he was blowing NO air into the clarinet. Keep the fingers as close as possible to the clarinet as possible. After awhile I then tried what Bonade recommended to his students to gain better legato which was to raise the fingers as high as possible and then to gently put the fingers down. Of course I did the Bonade legato exercise with no air being blown into the clarinet.
I've tried doing that and it's changed my life. I did that for the Stravinsky Three Pieces Mov. II and I absolutely nailed it at my juries.
So I like to practice just fingers slowly and lightly with no air used. Doing that will take out other distractions like intonation and air.
I know that you asked for fast fingers, however I like to think of legato fingers... but faster.
I also like to start at half tempo and move the metronome 10 BPM up and play each tempo once. Once I find the tempo that starts to have mistakes, messy notes, etc. that's the tempo I practice it at for awhile. For instance, if I have a piece at 140 I'll start to practice it at 70 then play it once if no mistakes happen I'll move up to 80. I'll keep doing that until I start to hear and feel mistakes. For instance, at 110 I start to notice uneven fingers and my body don't feel confident. After awhile of doing that I also like to do the Burt Kaplan metronome method.
Post Edited (2016-05-23 06:18)
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Author: annev
Date: 2016-05-23 18:43
This is in response to Paul Aviles comment about the splay finger exercise and may help others as well. A few months ago I was playing a lot of piano, in addition to clarinet and oboe. I found by the end of the day that my fingers felt tired and I was concerned about developing tendonitis (I didn't, thankfully). I asked a friend who is a physiotherapist and he gave me this exercise (stretch), which targets similar muscles to the splay finger stretch, but has been even more helpful for me. I use it now when I do a lot of clarinet as well.
Raise your arm directly in front of you so that it is 90 degrees to your body and parallel to the floor. Rotate your wrist so the palm is facing up. Gently grasp your fingers with the other hand and pull them toward your body, so the palm is now facing the wall in front of you (full extension of the wrist), making sure that your arm is straight. Hold for 30 seconds. You should feel a gentle stretch along your inner forearm, and possibly also along the tendons of your hand and fingers, depending on your flexibility. You can do this two or three times a day, and it's best if done after practicing as well.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-24 16:43
Yes, I can see where that would be very helpful........thank you for that!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-05-24 16:54
Attended a master class with Stanley Drucker years ago, and he emphasized what you can do with your mind. Try to feel each note as you play a fast passage, know exactly how you want it to sound before you start, work on keeping your eyes just ahead of what you're playing. He assumed, though, that you already knew about and were applying the things everyone else has said here.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-05-24 20:38
The description of what Drucker emphasized sounds much like what I meant earlier about visualization.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-05-25 06:14
It probably is. He seemed a lot like people I've met who have done a lot of meditation. It's like he parsed time in smaller bits than most of us are used to, and that has to help in playing fast.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-05-28 21:30
Light and sneaky is the goal. This means no tension or stress in the mind or fingers. Keep the fingers low. When tone holes are open, just high enough to not cause intonation issues. Resting or touch point spots on the keys are important.
Practice slowly and accurately ... speed will come in time, but will not if your are sloppy in your technique. Try the Velocity Studies by Opperman.
Some students of Bonade claimed that his fingers were so fast and efficient that you could hardly tell they were moving.
Tom
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-05-28 23:48
I learned from my teacher yesterday that our fingers are much faster in covering the holes than in lifting away from them, so it's important to pay attention to this when practicing.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-05-29 18:22
Roxann wrote:
> I learned from my teacher yesterday that our fingers are much
> faster in covering the holes than in lifting away from them, so
> it's important to pay attention to this when practicing.
What does your teacher mean by this? What specifically should you pay attention to?
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-05-29 18:44
Hi Karl...For instance, if I'm playing triplets with my fingers going down onto the keys, then fingers coming up off of them, I need to make certain that they go down then come up at the same speed. She noticed that, when I played triplets (and other quick groups of notes), I was playing them faster when I was putting my fingers down than when I was raising them. She went on to explain that our fingers are used to grabbing things very quickly. But they're not so used to releasing things quickly. I liked Paul Avila's idea of, while watching TV, to flex and extend the fingers to give them some practice. I just need to make sure, when playing, that I don't rush when I put my fingers down onto the keys.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-05-29 23:22
Hi Roxann,
When you play an F major scale in the low register, first slowly and then twice as fast; how much faster do your fingers need to move in the second scale?
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-05-30 00:38
I just wanted to ask you the question, and to see what your response was.
It wasn't anything to do with what you said before.
So, when you play an F major scale in the low register, first slowly and then twice as fast; how much faster do your fingers need to move in the second scale?
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-05-30 22:27
See, the mistake in much of this thread is to equate fast and accurate playing of passagework with fast finger movement.
Each finger, in much passagework (like the F major scale) needs to move only fast enough to make a clean transition between notes – but that's true in slow playing too. (Having the finger reach the hole at speed can create a special sort of effect in both fast and slow playing, of course.)
When movement of the finger is required for the NEXT transition – as in a trill – fast movement IS required. But it's surprising how much passagework is 'of the other sort.'
I pointed this out, clearly to no avail, less than two months ago:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=436689&t=436637&v=t
...and as long ago as 2008:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=282168&t=281877
Notice that this is not 'my opinion'. It's rather, WHAT'S TRUE.
Tony
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Author: gwie
Date: 2016-05-31 01:52
Tony's observations here work equally well in the string world.
Much of what we play on the violin isn't about finger speed, but rather limiting the distance that each finger travels so that it doesn't require that one make a burst of inaccurate motion. Beginners who haven't achieved this discipline yet tend to play with what I call a "whack-a-mole" approach, where each finger not only tries to hit notes independently, but also tend to travel an excessive distance up and down.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-05-31 02:44
Gene wrote:Quote:
Tony's observations here work equally well in the string world.
Much of what we play on the violin isn't about finger speed, but rather limiting the distance that each finger travels so that it doesn't require that one make a burst of inaccurate motion. Beginners who haven't achieved this discipline yet tend to play with what I call a "whack-a-mole" approach, where each finger not only tries to hit notes independently, but also tend to travel an excessive distance up and down. All I'd want to add to that is that in the clarinet world, it MAY be more useful to drop the 'limiting distance of finger movement' criterion and replace it by a 'generally slow movement' criterion, as I explain in the posts I referenced.
Why?
Well, the difference between the worlds is that in the string world you are working with essentially four fingers of the left hand – perhaps five, including the LH thumb – and have to deal with exquisitely controlled sideways motion as well as up and down motion.
On the other hand, we mostly don't deal with sideways motion, and are talking about nine mostly independent fingers. You CAN – and some teachers have done this – require that movements are small. But then you can see very able players doing the exact opposite, and it makes one wonder about the necessity of that approach.
I find that to demand small finger movements of myself involves using opposing muscles more than is necessary. (I need those oppositions when I'm playing 'trill-like' passages, but not otherwise.) So for me, 'usually letting my fingers be slow' and dropping the 'usually moving a small distance' requirement has worked better in general. Others may find the opposite.
There is an idea around here that there must be 'a right way' to do all this. (You should do what Stanley Hasty/Kal Opperman/Stanley Drucker/Anthony Gigliotti/Daniel Bonade/.....said you should do.)
But I think, and have always thought, that you do better to analyse the problem and understand WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE SITUATION.
That puts all of us in the real world; and we can deal with it as we see fit – to be judged by the results.
Tony
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-05-31 06:07
I recall the earlier posts about finger speed, and have pondered them ever since. Unfortunately, things can be true and unclear at the same time.
I've gradually (on my own) approached the belief that, in many contexts, finger speed ought to be fast, independent of whether the note sequence is fast or slow. That seems true for both fingers down and fingers up. As the OP notes, those are two different things - different, opposing muscles AND different neural connections. It's as though one ought to use speed equivalent to a fast trill even on other note sequences. This is not at all what some other and more experienced musicians have said, so . . . .
I remember thinking, when I started out playing again after several decades' hiatus, that I hoped one didn't need to practice dratted trills to become good. I now think those sort of exercises are indeed important, including not just trills but any common motions and sequences each individual finger must execute. The "barely moving fingers" is not (usually) necessary, but fast, smooth, easy movement often is. The opposition thing is vital, but one should seek control and accuracy without strain.
One reason finger down motion seems more natural than finger up motion is that the down direction comes with built-in hard stops - end points that don't change. The up positions may be more vague and variable. Another poster mentioned defined & practiced up (or "rest", a slightly confusing term) positions. About those, I don't know; they might be of value to some, but see YouTube for numerous examples of incredibly agile playing (not just clarinet) where the up or in-between positions are fairly, or even grossly, far flung.
BTW, tonguing also involves quick interaction of opposing muscles, and in many cases very quick tongue movements should be used even on slow notes. Different start / stop effects may be more in evidence with tonguing than with fingering, but the ability to move fast with control is very important still.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-05-31 06:22
Tony, I think they would move close to the same speed. I don't think I lift my fingers slowly with slow passages. Now I need to read what you wrote above to see how close I am with my answer!
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Author: gwie
Date: 2016-05-31 07:55
Tony,
It's more of a general approach for string player than it is a mandate. Small motions are preferred however with regards to timing and things like vibrato, one might choose to increase the distance in order to increase the amount of time it takes something to happen, with the speed of finger motion remaining constant. I agree that "generally slow movement" with the concept that we only need to move at the speed necessary to have clean execution is the most efficient/effective way to play, on clarinet or the violin. It's interesting that I have a number of violin students who come to me asking why they can't get their fingers to move faster to play rapid passages, as that isn't the solution at all!
The next discussion I want to have is to see how many people actually raise/lower their fingers from the muscles of the hand, vs. rotating the hand from the forearm/elbow to generate finger motion, or a combination of both.
Post Edited (2016-05-31 08:00)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-05-31 13:53
Roxann, it was really a thought experiment. But, to explain a little more:
If you play bottom F and then throat F, all your fingers come up at the same speed, and without any gap, if you do it accurately.
Now just alter the timing a little bit, so that the 'bottom' fingers come up slightly before the top fingers. You get intermediate notes, and with a little practice, a fast scale. It's a bit like undoing a zip, or peeling off a strip of Velcro, if you like.
What I was getting at is that the speed of each individual finger need have nothing to do with the speed of the scale. No THING moves fast; rather, it's the 'phase' of the finger movement that moves fast. And THAT realisation helps you to see that throwing a lot of energy at a fast passage, though tempting, may not be the way to go. In many cases you need to practise the TIMING of your finger movements, not their speed.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-05-31 14:12
Now do a similar thing in the top register, coming down C, Bb, A, G, F, E, D, C and then (faster) C,Bb,A,G,F,E,D,C:-)
Here only one finger needs to make a faster movement, namely RH1 to play and then immediately release the Bb; the rest can be slow as before.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-05-31 16:52
Philip Caron wrote:
>> I've gradually (on my own) approached the belief that, in many contexts, finger speed ought to be fast, independent of whether the note sequence is fast or slow. That seems true for both fingers down and fingers up. As the OP notes, those are two different things - different, opposing muscles AND different neural connections. It's as though one ought to use speed equivalent to a fast trill even on other note sequences. This is not at all what some other and more experienced musicians have said, so . . . .>>
As so often here, we come up against the fact that people are different, and so something you might want to say to one person who generally moves slowly, is different to what you might want to say to someone who generally moves faster.
Indeed, not only in technique but in the interpretation of different sorts of music, much of our advice as teachers is designed to have people who 'are swans' be able to play 'like squirrels' – and vice versa.
My point is that if you start with slow finger movement, you very quickly find out where you need to move faster. And, as I think is implied by what you write above, that needing to be faster may be driven not only by your being able to PLAY the passage, but by your wanting the passage to SOUND DIFFERENT. Finger speeds can subtly affect that.
>> One reason finger down motion seems more natural than finger up motion is that the down direction comes with built-in hard stops - end points that don't change. The up positions may be more vague and variable. Another poster mentioned defined & practiced up (or "rest", a slightly confusing term) positions. About those, I don't know; they might be of value to some, but see YouTube for numerous examples of incredibly agile playing (not just clarinet) where the up or in-between positions are fairly, or even grossly, far flung.>>
Yes. Again, the principle is: do what works. If it isn't working, think about it and try something different.
I'm not the only one to say that practising is very largely about THINKING.
On that note, thanks to you, and to Gene and some others for your thoughtful posts. There are people here who just type the first sentence that comes into their heads.
Tony
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-06-01 07:39
Tony said, "you need to practise the TIMING of your finger movements, not their speed." Would you mind explaining a bit more? I think that's exactly what my teacher is talking about. I'm not spacing the notes equally and that's what she wants me to work on. Is that what you mean by TIMING?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-06-01 23:46
Roxann wrote:
>> I think that's exactly what my teacher is talking about. I'm not spacing the notes equally and that's what she wants me to work on. Is that what you mean by TIMING? >>
It most probably is.
I'd forget the whole of this discussion if I were you. Your teacher would probably agree with me that the most important thing is to be able to HEAR whether you are 'spacing the notes equally'.
Because, if you can hear that your playing is uneven, then just listening to it as you play it again will improve it. It's how we learn to walk – and talk! – after all. So, I'd say it's more important to be sensitive YOURSELF to what's coming out than to be worrying about the details of what your fingers do – at any rate to begin with.
This thread has (mostly) been about playing passages FAST. Though obviously I can't hear you play, what you say makes me think that that can wait:-)
Tony
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-06-02 02:46
Well, "when those who can won't, those who will must". (Kudos to anyone who can attribute that.) Clean and accurately rhythmic playing will often strike the ear as faster, though actually it's just righter. The muscular motions needed to operate the keys must be sequenced within the rhythm of the notes to be played. That means fingers up, or down, or sideways, or mixes of those. Easy or hard, those transitions must fit the rhythm. That likely defines the timing aspect here.
I think this pertains to the citation of Mr. Drucker above, in that the sequence muscle movements necessary to play a sequence of notes in rhythm is felt, or known, or visualized - without gaps - just ahead of the actual execution of the motions of playing. This precognition may be quite unconscious, but I'm pretty sure it's there, and can be sensed while playing familiar music. It's like listening to your fingers.
Sometimes it seems to me that learning a difficult passage, where difficult is always in the context of some speed, involves practicing it at a speed that is not difficult, and then "listening to your fingers" to imprint that into one's memory.
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