 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-05-13 16:14
3D printing is for prototyping! Not actual products!
Sure you can 3D print a barrel but it will never be as well finished as one made on a lathe. 3D printed objects are rough and often warp from original dimensions during printing. Not to mention the texture of the surface will have bumps and groves where bacteria can grow. Not to mention two barrels and a bell cost more than my entire printer!
Sorry, I'm just an engineer(and a nerd) who likes to rant...
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-05-13 17:44
3D printing produces a replica entirely made out of the plastic that's fed into the printer. Thus, a 3D printed clarinet would have NO MOVING PARTS. The only even remotely usable clarinet sections would be the mouthpiece, the barrel and the bell.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-05-13 18:45
>> 3D printing produces a replica entirely made out of the plastic that's fed into the printer. Thus, a 3D printed clarinet would have NO MOVING PARTS. <<
That's not true. There's a 3D printed flute that, although isn't very good, works like a flute. Also many 3D printed parts are not "one piece" and have gaps and several moving parts such as hinges, etc. How much is possible depends on the resolution, etc.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-05-14 05:02
Show me a 3D-printed flute that has the two trill keys with the concentric tubes and interior rod or even the independent keys mounted on a rod.
Show me a 3D-printed clarinet that has pivot screws mounted on posts or the low Ab and F keys on a rod, or needle springs.
Then I'll believe it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-05-14 05:32
Are you saying that early clarinets and flutes that did not use the same complex mechanisms were not really clarinets or flutes? You have to start somewhere. As a serious amateur photographer who managed to get some training under Ansel Adams and at Brooks Institute in Santa Barbara, I used to firmly believe that digital images would never replace silver based images. Now, just about everyone (except me) carries a high resolution camera in their cell phone. I, finally, upgraded to a cell phone with a basic camera in it just a few months ago. I have concluded that I cannot stop progress.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-05-14 08:04
Ken, what I wrote are facts based on what I've actually seen. I guess you can choose not to believe it.
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Author: Riley-NZL
Date: 2016-05-14 11:57
There is really only two good reasons to 3d print clarinet parts, and that would be for:
a. Prototyping, am I'm sure this is probably already being done.
b. Making custom designed one off parts to order.
For any sort of mass production, 3rd printing is both to slow and to expensive. This might not always be the case, who know what will change in the next decade or two.
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Author: cearnsh
Date: 2016-05-16 15:52
It's entirely possible to print a clarinet barrel on a filament extrusion 3D printer - I had to give it a try after I got my printer. I was very surprised to discover that straight off the printer the barrel was too porous to allow any sound to be produced at all, but after sealing the surface (a few seconds exposure to boiling acetone vapour) it plays quite well. I won't be using it for any performances though...
More interestingly, I printed a barrel with an oversize bore together with a series of inserts with different lengths and internal geometries - tapers, internal grooves, square cross-section etc. This is a fascinating and inexpensive way to experiment with some of these possibilities. The square cross section in particular seems to impart an interesting 'solidity' to the sound, so I'll be experimenting with other non-circular alternatives. Much faster and less wasteful than creating multiple complete barrels.
Chris
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-05-16 16:13
clarnibass -
As I said, I'll believe it when I see a photograph. Certainly plastic keys can be 3D printed so that they bend, but what I want to see is 3D printed needle springs and 3D printed tubes rotating concentrically on metal rods.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Riley-NZL
Date: 2016-05-17 02:36
Ken, I'm not sure anyone is saying that they will be 3d printing an entire clarinet from start to finish in a single piece, I'm assuming they are mostly talking about the body of the clarinet, and adding keys at a later point (the same as clarinets are made today).
Considering 3d printers can use materials other than plastic, printing the keys in metal would probably be entirely possible at some point, and even the main body could be printed in hard rubber rather than plastic.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2016-05-17 06:45
Chris: I sure hope you were using a fume hood when you were boiling that acetone! As a high school chem teacher, I have had to deal with students doing all sorts of illogical things that you may or may not find hard to believe.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-05-17 06:54
I don't use acetone anywhere except outdoors with the wind at my back. It's the only thing that gets pine resin off my car, except for ether, which is equally dangerous and requires a prescription.
Ken Shaw
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Author: cearnsh
Date: 2016-05-17 15:00
Going somewhat off the topic of clarinets I'm afraid...
@BartHx: Yes, I'm an organic chemist by training and I know how to use acetone.
Acetone has hazards, but it is available over the counter from UK pharmacists as nail-varnish remover. It's much safer than diethyl ether. Of course it needs considerable care to avoid any possible sources of ignition when boiling it - e.g. using a hot water bath for heating.
I certainly wouldn't use acetone near my car - it's an excellent solvent for cellulose paint!
Chris
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-05-17 17:19
cearnsh -
Acetone is sold inexpensively in U.S. hardware stores. Buy only the smallest can. It's so volatile that it evaporates through even the tightest attempt to re-seal.
As I wrote, it gets pine tar off car surfaces, which even the hardest scrubbing with other cleaners doesn't touch. At least with the paint Toyota uses, the surface stands up fine.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-05-19 08:07
Ken, I don't think anyone was taking about a printed instrument with metal hinge rods and needle springs. I was replying specifically to what you wrote here: "Thus, a 3D printed clarinet would have NO MOVING PARTS."
There is a printed flute entirely made of plastic. I'm not saying it's good, but just a few years ago it would have been impossible and at most in someone's imagination. It has moving keys on plastic hinges. So that was incorrect and a 3D printed part doesn't have to be one piece with no moving parts. I hope that clarifies it.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-19 19:08
Check out the 3d printed Nera motorcycle by BigRep. A few months ago I saw a Chinese report of a car manufacturer that is working on developing a mini van that is fully 3d printed. During the report they showed engine blocks, upholstery and body parts that were all 3d printed.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-19 19:27
I am surprising myself by coming to the conclusion that this a fantastic idea..........for the body, barrel and bell.
During my time in the military band system I had the opportunity to test many of the ordered Buffet Greenline R13s coming into the inventory. They were surprisingly consistent from horn to horn in response and pitch (which was excellent). Because of that, I had decided a long time ago that if I ever purchased an auxiliary instrument (Eb or bass) that it would be a Greenline.
I believe that what happens with the wood instruments from Buffet (and really most if not all other manufacturers)is that there is "settling" of the wood after the manufacturing and finishing process that perturbs the dimensions of the tone holes (and even bore) causing the negative ramifications we all know and deal with. Buffet of course is the victim of its own success, having to kiln dry (cure) African Blackwood to move as many units as they do.
So if we can use a 'PARADIGM' set of dimensions (or variety of paradigms to cover different goals from instrumentalists) that provides the best intonation and timbre characteristics, we could ALL have......dare I say it..........perfect clarinets!
Of course the material would have to be inert enough not to add or detract from the natural resonance of the air column (so perhaps a material similar to Greenline).
My proposition then is to have someone take an amazing clarinet, and much like the story Brad Behn speaks of in his process to achieve a great mouthpiece, saw it into pieces to get all the best dimensions from it so that perfect copies can be printed.
We may be some years from this though but I think ultimately it will be the future of wood instruments since African Blackwood will be extinct in the not too distant future.
.....................Paul Aviles
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