 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-04-26 21:38
I’m not saying that gear doesn’t matter.
Still more, I’m not suggesting that any top artist would play product that was bad, despite the compensation they might earn from doing so.
But I do wonder sometimes if said top artists would still play the same setup if they weren’t compensated to do so.
(I suppose the question somewhat rhetorical. I'm not suggestion top product/price isn't good, just that if it was that good, players would pay money for it and vendors wouldn't desire to spend portions their advertising/marketing budgets on player endorsement programs.)
Thoughts?
Post Edited (2016-04-26 22:41)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-04-26 22:56
Wouldn't it be wonderful to live in a place where advertising of any product were unnecessary and the best ones simply rose to the sales forefront by word of mouth.
In the end I'm not sure it matters much - I never base a purchase on celebrity endorsements anyway. For me, the money spent on them is wasted.
Karl
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-04-27 01:57
My name is on the homepage of a particular craftsman. I don't receive any compensation for this endorsement. My reason for endorsing is twofold:
1. I genuinely believe that the product is the best that I have ever played on. To endorse anything less than that would make me look ridiculous. So to me it makes sense to support this craftsman and to recommend it to other players.
2. It is important for me to maintain a good relationship with this craftsman so that I can hopefully rely on receiving his best products and service in the future.
But there may be many more famous and less idealistic players out there...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-27 02:57
How many times have we seen on this board:
"Here is an image of so-and-so playing a new ligature.....does anyone know what it is?"
Or
"Does anyone know what mouthpiece whatcha-macallit is playing?"
I don't think we can help ourselves. But it's all part of curiosity and learning as well. So I guess as long as we don't run out and buy every single thing that gets a celebrity endorsement I guess we'll be alright.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-04-27 07:10
Liquorice, some might argue that when part of the motivation for endorsing a product you like is, as in your case, the hope of preferential treatment by its maker, then compensation is, if not received or expected, then hoped for in the form of preferential consideration by the maker.
Maybe that's splitting hairs. And I'm not so much blaming top players from trying to make a living as I am hopefully getting people to questions their purchases based on the fact that top players use a product. YMMV with said gear, and the endorser my be motivated by factors other than belief that the product is, if not bad, the necessarily optimal one of its kind out there.
But sadly, endorsement programs must work in sales more then the costs of running them, or profit oriented manufacturers wouldn't continue to have such programs.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-04-27 09:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwL0-zscSLk I'm not a drinker, but friends of mine who are said this stuff was really bad. Yet I bet they sold a lot more of it in 1977 with James Coburn's endorsement than if they'd spent the same money improving the product. Some things never change.
And I bet Boomer didn't really eat Wheaties either.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-04-27 09:40)
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-04-28 04:13
Kind of how most people who endorse buffet clarinets don't play buffet clarinets right out of the factory. They all have special things done to them, often to the point it just isn't the same instrument they are endorsing. The same probably is true of mouthpieces.
And then you have products that don't make that much of a difference so using whatever makes them more money isn't difficult to do.
Fernando
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-04-28 10:02
WhitePlainsDave- you're twisting my words. I never said anything about "preferential treatment". I just said that I would like to retain a good relationship with the craftsman. I'm sure anyone would want to do do the same for some professional tool which they felt to be of utmost importance to their work.
If I took my name off the website, the products wouldn't be any less good. And if my relationship with the craftsman went sour, I'd still be playing his products because they work best for me.
You may remain cynical. But to answer your original question, at least in my case: Yes- I play and endorse a set-up without any compensation.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-04-29 20:37
Liquurice:
Your words:
in part, you endorse a product in the hopes of receiving this craftsman's best products and service.
That's putting your name in front of something, at least in part, in the hopes of receiving compensation...in your case good will, i.e. an asset of value to you.
The only difference between that and, say, Drucker's endorsement of LeBlanc clarinets for a time, an excellent maker of instruments, is his endorsement was likely more tangible and formal, (money and/or product contractually guaranteed.)
I don't have issue with either arrangement, but all else about your playing the product despite this, or its likely strong sales without your plug is moot.
Not everyone of your craftsman's clients will likely receive his best care and work product: an asset. You hope to exchange good will (a form of compensation) for it.
Cynicism plays no role. It's just transactional fact. Ask a professional in business/economics/finance should you disagree with me. That laws may or may not tax it plays no role.
Presumptuously you and this craftsman (and others) value your good will. If so, rationale would not have you give it away for free, baring maybe a non-profit cause you believe in. Even then, most don't give gifts anonymously, exchanging funds for notoriety, a form of compensation as well.
You've done nothing illegal, but you've endorsed a product for expectations of something greater than simply your belief in it. I wish everyone endorsed product they'd play, like you did here, regardless of said endorsement. In such a state---and my reason for concern over endorsement in the first place--consumers would be less inclined to purchase one good product over another, at the additional cost of the endorser's fee, all while next year that endorser may go to a different strong vendor who pays him/her more.
Post Edited (2016-04-29 20:43)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2016-04-30 00:03
Quote:
That's putting your name in front of something, at least in part, in the hopes of receiving compensation...in your case good will, i.e. an asset of value to you.
The only difference between that and, say, Drucker's endorsement of LeBlanc clarinets for a time, an excellent maker of instruments, is his endorsement was likely more tangible and formal, (money and/or product contractually guaranteed.)
I don't have issue with either arrangement, but all else about your playing the product despite this, or its likely strong sales without your plug is moot.
Not everyone of your craftsman's clients will likely receive his best care and work product: an asset. You hope to exchange good will (a form of compensation) for it.
So much BS.
Liquorice's reason for supporting this craftsman is that the products improve his clarinet playing; that intrinsic value isn't negated by any resulting extrinsic benefits (just like how most people pursue an advanced higher ed degree because they want to better themselves, though it may also result in higher wages when they enter the job market). Things can and do hold both intrinsic and extrinsic value.
It's therefore a matter of motivation. If Drucker supported Leblanc primarily for the money/benefits involved (extrinsic value), it would be a completely different case than Liquorice's, regardless of the quality of the products involved. (It's a distinction that's made very well the 8th book of Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics, by the way.)
Post Edited (2016-04-30 00:04)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-04-30 02:14
White Plain Dave:
You wrote "all else about your playing the product despite this, or its likely strong sales without your plug is moot."
This would be true if my ONLY reason for endorsement was what you describe as the hope of receiving compensation. This is not the case.
Last year you wrote on this BBoard:
"Our board's Chris P., on "your side of the pond," is IMHO, one of the best there is in repair, bar none."
Why did you write this?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-04-30 02:53
Liquorice: if part of your endorsement comes from the receipt or hope of receipt of compensation/consideration (special product/attemtion) then your endorsement isn't purely out of respect for product, but has a self interest component.
The rest is moot because nothing else changes the above.
It's fine. That's all I'm saying. And that without examining the endorser's compensation we as consumers can't assess, speaking in general terms, how much the endorser believes in a product on its own merits or how much we pay in increased prices for it.
You're right. I think some of the repair work I've seen Chris P. do to be remarkable. I've never expected or received anything for saying that. I said it simply, and slightly differently than you, for no other reason that I believe it to be true.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-04-30 03:45
An interesting topic that can leave the clarinet world and go right to the heart of who and what we are. Can we do anything good (saying good things in support of good people / good products just being one of those things) with absolutely ZERO expectation of getting anything out of it for ourselves? Not even a feeling of personal satisfaction? I think it is barely possible, perhaps only when the actual outcome is negative and we knew it would be. EVEN THEN, we are satisfied with ourselves for making such a sacrifice for the good of somebody, or the making of a point, or whatever it was.
So go ahead and discuss the fine points of it, it's interesting so long as not too contentious. You're bordering on the theological, and I know Mark would rather we not go there. He may even yank this comment, which is OK by me.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-04-30 03:51)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-04-30 08:47
First, let's not eat our young here. There are many, MANY products where the greatest practitioners endorse products, say, golf clubs. If you have doubts about whether Mr. X is playing Brand Y clarinets because they're great or because he gets them for free, I would call that a healthy, rational skepticism. Try them for yourself.
Second, it's a two way street. The artists on a company's website don't just take, they often act as advisers in the development of new products and in improving old ones. It's a valuable relationship for both the company and the artist, and ideally it benefits all of the company's customers if the result is better reeds or mouthpieces or whatever.
Third, it always looks different from the inside and the outside. From the outside, it's easy to imagine the company approaching the clarinet hero with a briefcase full of cash, and I'm not saying that it is impossible for that to happen, at least figuratively, but for most of the players I know, the equipment choice came first and the small endorsement deal came second. From the inside, it's not that big of a deal. It's a relatively small industry, there are no Nikes with millions to spend on endorsements.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-04-30 12:59
Take a moment and flip your thinking. Instead of thinking "this person plays on ____ to sound better", think more along the lines of "_____ doesn't hold him/her back from sounding great".
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-05-03 02:28
WhitePlainsDave, we may be splitting hairs, but I still don't think you've got me...
Two craftsmen list my name on their websites and just like you say about your endorsement of ChrisP: "I've never expected or received anything" from them. I'm proud to have my name associated with their products because I believe that they are of the absolute highest quality. Anything else would make me look ridiculous as a professional. I don't receive any preferential treatment or any compensation for these endorsements, so clearly this in no way pushes up the price of the products.
Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I hope that this is a clear enough answer to your original questions.
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2016-05-03 02:37
Can someone receive an endorsement from 2 clarinet makers at the same time?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-05-03 03:14
I don't think anyone plays at a high level anything but what they think is the very best for them.
There is no endorsement deal that could even come close to not playing what we feel is the best equipment for us.
That's why players switch companies. Always from them liking the product a lot, then either being approached (usually the case, has always been for myself), or the player being recommended by another Artist. (I have done that for friends before, but they always played the product).
When Rico/Boosey & Hawkes/Steinway/D'Addario approached me, it was for me to try their reed. Nothing about being a tester, endorser, celebrity apprentice, nothing......just give them 10 minutes to try a reed.
I was in love with em afterwards.
Initially didn't even want to try them! (After all, it was a Rico product)
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-05-03 10:37
"Can someone receive an endorsement from 2 clarinet makers at the same time?"
One is a clarinet maker, one a mouthpiece maker.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-05-03 13:52
@DavidBlumberg, Steinway also approached you? Is it the piano maker? That's really cool!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-05-03 17:06
A couple of thoughts/questions:
David Blumberg: David, I ask this question not as a challenge, but simply because I don't know the answer, and you, a friend of Ricardo Morales', might.
Didn't Mr. Morales once endorse Vandoren reeds, and doesn't he now endorses Legere?
Even if this is true--I'm not drawing any conclusions as to Mr. Morales' intent. Maybe Mr. Morales likes Legere better--maybe they [also] pay him more--I don't know and am certainly willing to give Mr. Morales the benefit of the doubt.
Liquorice: let's agree to disagree. I'm not trying the "catch" you. The essence of this thread was about the cost to consumers of endorsers who may play product "X" over "Y," because [or primarily because] the maker of "X" gave them a better deal than "Y." In such cases, consumers not only can be swayed to buy product that's not superior, but pay for that endorsement in higher purchase price. I know, for example, that Drucker's played Buffet, but endorsed (professional line) Leblanc for a time, and I've wondered, when artists don't also play a role in a product's production (e.g. Rico Reserve/D'Addario mouthpiece built with Hawley/Nuccio) what role endorsement $ has in swaying them between two or more strong products.
You don't, at your own admission, affect the market on your endorsement, but that endorsement comes, even if in only small part, with your hope of preferential treatment: something I'd never ask for or accept.
This doesn't make me a hero, nor you a villain. My interest doesn't lie in judging endorsers, but rather (as an economist) noting their affect on consumers making less than optimal purchase decisions.
In fact maybe if I was a clarinet star I might be open to endorsement arrangements: trying to simply make a living as a musician. Endorsers certainly bear the right to claim that they don't force people to buy product they endorse. And only stupid ones would dilute their own brand, endorsing junk, or flip flopping between vendors over time.
Post Edited (2016-05-03 17:10)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-05-03 17:57
Ricardo for a long time was a Rico Artist (obviously the higher line of reeds as I am).
He left and switched to Vandoren V-12 for a period (not in Vandorens Artist Roster, was just playing the reed), and then fell in love with Legere and hasn't looked back. He was instrumental in developing their European Cut Reed.
He only plays the Legere now - and for the past almost 3 years.
Purchase prices aren't affected really at all by endorsers. Companies have fish to fry such as retirement benefits that do affect purchase price/cost of doing business. Legacy expenses.
Musical endorsements in Classical at least are very very low budget ventures typically.
I was talking to a Dutch player/professor who is being endorsed by a European Clarinet Manufacturer who is delighted in her change to that brand (leaving brand name out), as they sent him/her to China 3 times for Clinics.
Previously played Buffet.
A company will invest in a player such as us to get the word out on the product by its being played well in public or to a specific audience. That is Marketing.
Without good Marketing, the product can easily die on the vine.
There are famous stories of xxxxxer playing a Buffet at a Leblanc Recital, but they are rare.
Marketing is a vital cost of doing business.
Ultimately it comes down to what works in your budget to play what you like. What works well for xx may not work at all for yy.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-05-03 18:06
Btw - Ricky for a long time with Backun has helped design the product.
But there was a point before his name was on it that he was in love with what Morrie was putting out, and was a gigantic advocate.
He got nothing for free. Paid for stuff just like everyone else.
When a player switches from X to y, it's (idealistically thinking, but I do believe) because the strongly prefer it. There is no business plan in that, as the business is playing music well, and if something does that more efficiently for a player, they will use it.
I don't know if Buffet or Selmer give away free Clarinets to their Artists, but imagine the awkwardness of having to send it back if the player switches.........
That has happened a lot in the last 4 years.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-05-03 18:18
Klose - not approached by Steinway, they were in a strong bid to take over the Master Company back in the late 90's. I forgot it did not go through.
I did play Piano pretty well though. Grandstudent of Horowitz.
Alex Fiorillo who I studied with was a Clarinetist who switched to Piano for his career. He had once said to me that I could be a Piano Major, but noooooooo
Not my career goal.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-03 21:36
According to a TV rerun I'm watching, Michael Jordan preferred Adidas until he got his Nike deal. In some alternate universe, the endorsement values for star basketball players and star clarinet players are reversed from our world. Would you rather live in the other one? Money isn't everything you know.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: anonrob
Date: 2016-05-03 22:06
I know a couple of Selmer saxophone endorsers. They get to buy instruments at dealer cost, some cash for clinics, but not much more in financial terms.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-05-03 22:23
I'm an amateur doubling on clarinets and saxophones. It wouldn't be too difficult for any reasonably experienced listener to detect the fact that I've never had a private lesson on a wind instrument. Hmmm . . . I wonder whether I could persuade a reputable manufacturer to pay me NOT to endorse that company's products?
![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2016-05-03 22:23)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-05-03 22:48
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Ricardo for a long time was a Rico Artist (obviously the higher
> line of reeds as I am).
>
> He left and switched to Vandoren V-12 for a period (not in
> Vandorens Artist Roster, was just playing the reed), and then
> fell in love with Legere and hasn't looked back. He was
> instrumental in developing their European Cut Reed.
> He only plays the Legere now - and for the past almost 3 years.
>
Does Ricardo Morales actually *endorse* Legeres, or is it just that it has become known through the grapevine that he is using them? I haven't noticed - maybe I just don't read the right ads - that he is ever shown promoting or recommending them in a public way. I didn't think he actively promoted V-12s, either (and, as David said, he wasn't on their Artist Roster, which is one popular avenue toward endorsement).
Are we talking about players' use of a product, or their active promotion of one through advertising that uses their names?
Karl
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-05-04 00:52
WhitePlainsDave wrote: "that endorsement comes, even if in only small part, with your hope of preferential treatment: something I'd never ask for or accept."
I've said several times in this thread that I have no hope of preferential treatment. I don't know why you won't accept my word on this.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-05-04 06:00
A good relationship between a buyer and a seller does not necessarily entail preferential treatment.
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2016-05-04 17:25
Lets go in a different direction
Lets say a performer does an tv/radio advertisement for a certain brand of clarinet.
Does that mean that the performer will always plays that brand?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-05-04 18:19
Nope - not at all.
Here's an example of what could and does happen:
Say John X makes an amazing clarinet repairman screwdriver, but not a lot of techs know about it.
He might send a sample to the tech school to show their techs so that they can experience the superiority (or lack of) the product.
A high profile player receives various items to try, most always after giving permission to the vendor, at least for me - I never get anything without being asked if it is ok to send.
Occasionally that comes with a foreign tax tariff! (Not from Canada - I pay for everything I get)
Got a Clarinet Prototype about 4 years ago that came (was to be returned, just for me to try it and evaluate) that came in a really nice Bam Single Case.
I hadn't used one before, and was not used to the zipper, picked up the case one time and the case came completely open - VERTICALLY!!!!
Great case - not a single joint fell out!
Heart attack avoided......
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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