 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-05-17 14:39
Please "educate me". Noted this:Selmer Wood Contra Alto Clarinet
Item #1431695759 on eBay. My question is, where in the tonal structure of the woodwinds does the Contra-Alto fit? Does it over lap the upper Bass register and the lower Alto, or what?
Bob A
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-05-17 15:02
Bob -
The contra-alto is in Eb, a fifth below the bass clarinet, in comparison with the true contrabass, which is in BBb, an octave below the bass. The Selmer contra-alto plays very much like a bass clarinet. (The metal Leblanc contra-alto and contrabass have a broader sound and slower response.)
The instrument on eBay looks black in the photos, but that may be just an overexposure. All the Selmers I've seen were made of tulip-wood and had a gold and dark brown striped grain.
As the listing says, the prices for new Selmers are astronomical. The seller's website http://www.hayeshouseofmusic.com/new_page_2.htm lists what is presumably the same instrument for sale at $5,995, which may be the eBay reserve. I got my Selmer for less than half that price, but it needed substantial restoration.
The photo shows an instrument with a very long lower joint, which may be an extension to low C. If so, that would increase the price.
The contra-alto is great for band use, because the player can read bass clef as if it were treble clef (just changing the key signature), so you can play the tuba part if there is no contra part.
Mouthpieces are a problem. I got a Selmer C*, which is a good design, but Selmer's machinery has gotten badly out of adjustment and it was terribly crooked. My refacing guy said it took him a long time to fix, but it works very well now.
Vandoren bass sax reeds work well. (Vandoren contrabass clarinet reeds were designed for the old Leblanc contrabass mouthpiece, which was much wider, and they are much too wide for a Selmer contra-alto mouthpiece.) Buy reeds hard, because the bottoms warp badly. Then sand the bottoms down flat and play them quite soft -- probably a whole number softer than what you play on soprano or even bass clarinet -- as soft as you can have them without producing a "flapping" rasp.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-05-17 19:24
Ken is right about the Selmer contra-altos. I have a Buescher contra (identical to Bundy, which has the same bore and keywork as the rosewood Selmer contra but is made of plastic). I'm playing it a good wind ensemble, mainly reading bass clef tuba and string bass parts just as Ken said, by pretending they're in treble clef and adding three sharps. It's a pain, but I'm getting better at it. (Note: String bass parts played on the contra usually also need to be dropped an octave lower, using the above method). Occasionally I actually get an Eb contra part, or an Eb bari sax part, and these can be read directly in treble clef, of course. I've even gotten a few Eb alto clarinet parts, which I try to play up an octave whenever possible (which can be a problem given the contra's lack of a half-hole register vent, making the production of altissimo notes iffy at best).
My mouthpiece is a Bundy 3 which I extensively refaced, and I use a Rovner bass clarinet ligature opened up so far that the screw almost falls out, but it does work fine. My reeds are a mixture of contrabass clarinet reeds (narrowed a bit) and baritone sax reeds (which are exactly the right size for this particular mouthpiece). And as Ken said, it sounds like a bass clarinet, only lower. I had to open the tip way up to avoid the buzzing/slapping sound Ken alludes to, and I paid particular attention to making a sharp transition from the flat table to the curved facing, to limit "closing up" which is especially troublesome on instruments using large reeds (because these reeds are really thinner than they should be, since they're made from the same-diameter cane tubes as smaller reeds, despite the greater thickness needed for a wider and longer reed).
To make my horn play better in tune and less stuffy, I've enlarged (and moved up slightly) the tone holes affecting the throat G, G#, and A, as well as the second-from-the-top side trill key which is used for the alternate throat Bb fingering. Given that the Bundy/Buescher was marketed (and priced) as a student-grade instrument, it plays remarkably well (after these minor modifications). The key design, being essentially the same as the professional rosewood Selmer) is actually pretty good, much better than the bass and soprano Bundys I've tried. Finally, just as on bass clarinet, I hate the 'straight into the mouth" angle of the neck, so I'm going to re-angle it just as I do on my bass clarinets. Then I will be happy with this horn!
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Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-05-17 20:15
Dave -- Congrats on your Contra -- a recent acquisition, no? Thanks for explaining how one does the transposition to read off the tuba parts.
Ken -- when you say sand the "bottom" of the reed, do you mean the narrow side opposite the tip or the side that contacts the mouthpiece? I have trouble with reed warpage with my Grand Concerts for bass clarinet, but I've only ever sanded the side that goes into my mouth. They still warp and it drives me nuts.
(I've studied Larry Guy's book on reeds but it fails to communicate with me effectively -- I need someone to show me!)
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-05-17 21:05
Cheryl,
Thanks for the congrats --- my Buescher contra is indeed a recent acquisition (about a month-and-a-half ago), an eBay special that cost me $700 (quite a bargain, given its generally good condition --- most of the pads and corks were fine, and after a good cleaning and polishing it even looks presentable).
Not to answer for Ken, but I frequently sand and/or scrape the bottom of reeds, where 'bottom' refers to the 'flat' side that sits on the mouthpiece table. Here's the secret: Start with reeds that are maybe a half-strength stronger (harder) than you will ultimately want to play on. Break in the reeds by wetting in a glass of water for about 10 minutes, then dry using your fingers and/or a towel, always squeezing from the back towards the tip. Then lay the reed on a countertop, flat side UP, and let dry overnight. Do this for a week or so before ever playing a note on the reed. Now, you may find that the bottom (flat side) of the reed is no longer perfectly flat --- this is to be expected! What you have done is allowed the residual stresses in the reed to be relieved by warping. So at this point, by scraping the bottom of the reed flat, you should end up with a reed that will be reliable and not tend to warp, because you will have taken most of the warpage out of it. This process has worked well for me over the years, naturally everyone has a different method or some variation on this that may work equally well or better.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-05-17 21:16
By the "bottom" I mean the flat underside of the reed that contacts the mouthpiece. As Dave says, the reeds often made of cane that's too small in diameter and have a high arch on the bark side. This, plus the large size, makes them very prone to warping into a longitudinal bulge that keeps the edges of the reed from contacting the table or even the rails of the mouthpiece.
That's why I buy contra reeds as hard as I can get them, to leave me plenty of room to faltten the bottom. I use a very large fine-tooth (mill bastard) flat file, nearly 2 inches wide and almost 2 feet long. You could also use 600 grit wet-or-dry (black coat) sandpaper on a piece of plate glass, but the file is more precise and doesn't take off too much at a time. Lightly dampen 3 fingers and press fairly hard, but only on the bark and work until the back 2/3 of the underside is shiny. Then put your fingers lightly on the vamp and polish its underside. I've found I can do about 75% of the balancing and adjusting work from the bottom. You want the reed to be free-blowing and rather soft. Remember that you're reinforcing the bass line, and the sound will be multiplied by all the instruments you are supporting.
As Dave said, the Buescher is a Bundy stencil. Kalmen Opperman did hundreds of hours of work on a Buescher (whiich he said was unplayable in its original condition) and turned it into probably the best contra-alto in the world. I've played it, and it's unbelieveable.
Contra is my natural instrument. I don't have to do anything to play it -- just blow.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Leanne
Date: 2001-05-18 03:26
I wish I would have known about those reed tricks in my contra playing days (which ended tonight). I liked using cheap Rico contrabass clarinet reeds. I got a nice tone on them, but man, do they warp easily!
It sounds so weird to talk about contra playing in the past tense. Gosh, I'll probably start crying "I miss my contra!" in my sleep...no, probably not.
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Author: Stephen Froehlich
Date: 2001-05-18 14:25
Ken, you're very lucky to be a natural contra player. I've been of the opinion for a while that contra players are born, not so much taught. I had horrendous squaking (contra's dont' squeak, they squak) problems every time I played the contra. However, what I've learned recently about working reeds might help that quite a bit. On the other hand, I want to buy an alto long before I buy a contra.
<p>My agreement with my college band director was that I'd play contra parts only as long as they were truly contra parts and not just doubling the tuba. During my two years of college band, there were perhaps three our four pieces that fit this billing. The most interesting by a long shot was the divided BBb contra part on a Gunther Schuller 12 tone piece. This was made all the more interesting by the fact that the grumpy old man himself was conducting from a wheelchair.
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Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-05-18 14:36
Who knew a Bundy stencil has the potential to be customized into a fine contra alto instrument? Very cool.
Thanks, Dave & Ken, for the reed lessons. You explained things very clearly! I think those of us using Big Reeds have a slightly different challenge than those using smaller ones, especially when they've been cut from cane w/a small diameter, as you note Ken.
I'll attack my warpy reeds in a couple of hours. I've printed out your responses and am keeping them in a little clarinet notebook I'm compiling.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-05-18 19:46
Also my thanx for all of this info. While I havent "descended" from bass cl, I have that desire and will bear all of this in mind. I learned of the reed "back" sanding method from a fine tenor sax player, also the best repairman in Tulsa, prob. in Okla, Jay DeGeer, long time friend, still does custom work. Regards, Don
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-06-06 17:30
Hi!
Thank you for sharing your info on contras. I also have a Bundy contra which I feel is quite a fine instrument. Since I finally have an opportunity to play it for an event, I'm working on the tuning. The C#/G# hole seems a bit small as do the Eb/Bb holes. In addition, the G/D notes are a bit high. The throat tones seem ok. What I've found is that the resonite material is not as easy to work with as wood. To make these slight changes, I usually use round files or dowels covered with medium silicon carbide paper. Regardless of tools, the resonite resists being worked on. With a Selmer C* mouthpiece and a Rico Royal baritone sax reed, it's beginning to sound wonderful. I suspect that the keywork and necks for Selmer USA and Selmer Paris contras are made in the same place as they look identical. The neck braces and the bells seem to be different, however.
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