 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2016-04-27 04:54
I bought a new Ridenour Lyrique and like it fine, but no matter what I do I am 20 cents flat across the board. This is with both barrels. I'm using a Fobes Debut and currently a Legere 2.5 What can I do about this, and is it a problem with other people or is it likely due to my inexperienced status on clarinet? (experienced wind musician, no pitch problems on brass or on oboe.)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-27 05:04
Well, are you saying you get exactly the same low intonation on barrels of two different lengths?
Also, some mouthpieces are really flat (ie Gennusa Excellente or even Vandoren 13 Series mouthpieces tend 'lower'). Higher pitched mouthpieces would be standard Vandorens or Richard Hawkins (for example).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-04-27 07:00
If you're going to try to get any usable ideas over the web, you'll need to give more details. In no particular order:
1. Is every note -20 cents? If not, which ones?
2. Are you getting the same pitch with 2 barrels of different lengths?
3. Have you tried a different clarinet with the same mouthpiece and reed? If the barrels will fit the other clarinet's tenon, with the same barrels?
4, Have you tried cane reeds with the Lyrique + Fobes Debut?
5. Have you asked someone else to play the instrument? If so does he/she play flat also?
6. Have you checked your tuner to make sure it's calibrated correctly?
7. Are you checking the pitch when the clarinet is fully warmed up or when you first assemble it?
If the clarinet is truly flat, your best bet would be to talk to Tom Ridenour about it. He certainly didn't design and doesn't deliberately manufacture a flat instrument. My knee-jerk guess without first getting answers to any of the above questions is that the Legere you're using is too soft for the Debut's facing. But it could easily be something else. You need to try to eliminate yourself as the cause (Nos. 3-6) and then narrow the problem as much as it can be narrowed (#1, 2, 7). The likelihood is that it isn't your inexperience that's causing this problem, but solving it depends very much on what exactly the problem is.
Karl
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2016-04-27 07:24
Thanks for the input.
I am 20 cents flat across the board. The two barrels I have appear to be the same length but different bores. They came with the clarinet.
I have not had opportunity to try any other clarinet. The person I took a lesson from was not flat on my instrument with her mouthpiece.
I am not ever going to use cane reeds.
My tuner is set at A 440.
Since we don't have a winter here, the clarinet is never actually cold. The lesson was last summer and I was flat there too.
I do not think it is an instrument problem. I am wondering why *I* would be playing flat. If I "bite" the reed enough to bring the pitch up, it closes it off entirely. I can't imagine having the embouchure strength to put that much pressure on a harder reed. I'm not young any more.
I have no problems playing oboe or french horn on pitch, so this appears to be clarinet-specific for me. Just trying to figure out what it is. The teacher suggested I might need a shorter barrel than most. No problem with air flow, either, since I am a wind player already.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-04-27 08:36
Based on experience with that mouthpiece and a Ridenour Liberitas clarinet, you're probably going to need about a 3 1/2 Legere (at least if it's the Signature model) in order to play well and in tune. For me, cane reeds are a better match for this set up, but a Legere can certainly work.
If a reed that hard is difficult to play you probably want to look to embouchure development/ tongue position. If you are an experienced brass player, air support is probably not the primary issue, although otherwise that would be my first guess. The clarinet is naturally going to be a bit flat for the first 5 minutes or so of playing until the air column inside is fully heated up by your breath, even in Tucson or here in San Diego.
The barrels should be of slightly different lengths, not bore size. Double check by setting them both on a flat surface and seeing if the tops line up. If they are actually the same length, you should definitely get in touch with the Ridenours.
Anders
Post Edited (2016-04-27 08:39)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-04-27 12:05
Ask Tom Ridenour for a smaller barrel. I'm sure he has plenty. A 64 mm will probably solve the issues.
I wouldn't change mouthpieces yet unless you hate your sound.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: MikeWilson
Date: 2016-04-27 12:34
As an experienced oboist who relatively recently started playing clarinet I'd suspect the flatness is caused by a low back of tongue position. Play around with your tongue shape and find how to bend the pitch up by raising the middle/back part of your tongue. For me the right tongue place is most unlike playing the oboe -- rather more like playing high on french horn.
Mike
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-27 15:22
If the timbre is good (projection, overtones, centre) I would agree with Bob, there would be NO reason to change reeds, embouchure, mouthpiece. You, in that case would only need a shorter barrel.
It IS possible to use harder reeds and squeeze the mouthpiece to death, but that is a losing proposition in terms of durability and quite honestly, the best practices of playing the clarinet.
And more good news is that you have consistent internal pitch!!!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2016-04-27 18:51
I had messed with that high tongue position, which I understand is sort of basic on clarinet, and decided it was not something I want to learn because it is contrary to the other instruments i play and I don't want to mess them up. However, i'll see if that is the cause of the pitch problem. My experience is that it does affect the speed of the air for me, but not that much. Horn requires a high speed of air to play high, and I seem to be able to achieve that without extensive tongue movement. I "can" achieve it with tongue movement but prefer to just give more support.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2016-04-27 18:57
Maybe I'll talk to Tom R and see what he says. I'm not interested in throwing any more money at this though, at the present time. Maybe he will exchange the longer barrel for a shorter one. I'm happy with my sound, as was my teacher when I took a lesson. I don't sound "like a pro" but neither do I sound like a beginner. It's been my experience that over time my ear will bring about a decent sound. The rest of technique takes a lot more work
I'll remember the 64mm recommendation, thanks. Maybe I can find one locally to try out.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-04-28 00:54
In 2014, I bought a great Forte C clarinet on the internet but found that it was about 1/4 tone flat even with it's short barrel, and even with various mouthpieces. Others have found the same with those clarinets. The pads were said to be white Italian leather pads, all looking fine, and not leaking visibly. The tone holes all were great and the suction was ok. I then replaced all the upper joint pads with good Ferrees cork pads and found amazingly that the pitch became right on A440. Yes, I also have played the oboe for decades and do my own oboe repair.
Try wetting all the pads with a piece of wet paper and see if that changes things. Sometimes an instrument that has not been used will have very dry pads with very tiny leaks, especially in a desert area. Good luck!
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2016-04-28 01:46
Interesting thing to try. It / I was flat from the git-go though. And I do think I remember my teacher played on pitch with it, which is why I think it is me.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-04-29 01:48
Using a 3 1/2 reed on a Forbes Debut mouthpiece is in no way in and of itself contrary to "the best practices of playing the clarinet". Thousands of middle school and high school students do just that and go on to lead happy and productive lives, complete with fulfilling musical activities. It also doesn't require "squeezing the mouthpiece to death".
Might we dial back the hyperbole a little? It's not helpful. If trying a harder reed doesn't help the pitch issue without compromising the tone, well then don't use a harder reed!
Anders
Post Edited (2016-04-29 03:45)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-29 06:48
Well don't misread to what I was referring (or maybe I didn't make it clear). Some folks were suggesting all sorts of CHANGES to make the pitch come up. One was to use harder reeds. I want to be the voice of reason on this issue. If "EaubeauHorn" is happy with his sound and NOT straining at all presently, there is no reason to shoot for strain just to meet an arbitrary pitch standard. Arbitrary of course with respect to having a clear option to use a shorter barrel instead.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-04-29 07:54
We aren't EaubeauHorn, so we can't say if there's absolutely no resistance in his setup, or if the reed feels currently hard. None of us have even heard him play. Using a harder reed is usually the first thing to prescribe as a teacher, provided you have the student in front of you. . This type of advice is blind and thus the student is left with a wide variety of things to try.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-04-29 09:38
Alright, guys. Fair points. I appreciate the feedback.
I actually need to get in touch with the Ridenours myself as the short barrel on the A clarinet I have from them is barely short enough to bring the instrument up to A 440 with my set-up, leaving no room to comfortably play in tune if the horn is cold or the string players decide to engage in "pitch inflation". The two barrels on my Bb are perfect lengths for my needs.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2016-04-29 10:06
I'll point out that I'm 67, a union member for many years, ex-professional on another instrument. So I have a pretty good handle on how good I sound and where I want to go. At my age I'm not likely to develop the embouchure strength to use a heavy reed because I do not have physical capability any more. Some do at my age and some don't. However, I always manage to get a good sound because my ear and musicianship won't allow me to not do that; even if it is only on Mary Had a Little Lamb, the tone quality is good and it is musical. I'll take all the suggestions as kind offers of advice and use the four T's to arrive at a solution. (Engineering term: Try This Try That.)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-04-29 17:22
EaubeauHorn wrote:
> I'll point out that I'm 67, a union member for many years,
> ex-professional on another instrument. So I have a pretty good
> handle on how good I sound and where I want to go. At my age
> I'm not likely to develop the embouchure strength to use a
> heavy reed because I do not have physical capability any more.
OK, so your experience level as an instrumental musician is higher than the average poster asking this kind of question. Still, trying a slightly harder reed is such an easy experiment to make, relatively inexpensive and easily and completely reversible if it doesn't solve the problem.
I guess I made the original suggestion about trying something harder ("My knee-jerk guess without first getting answers to any of the above questions is that the Legere you're using is too soft for the Debut's facing. But it could easily be something else."). I had no intention of suggesting that you play on an uncomfortably stiff reed just to bring the pitch up (which it might not do in any case). I didn't mean to stir up a row about hard vs. soft reeds, which comes up every so often on its own.
I actually had a double intent with my suggestion about trying something slightly harder in cane. One of the main problems I have in playing Legere reeds is that, until I reach a hardness that feels stuffy, they tend to play flat for me - especially above G5 or so. I don't have the same problem with cane reeds unless I go down to a strength that also destroys my sound and response.
Karl
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-04-29 23:21
Thanks for posting, EabeauHorn! I think the 4 T's may be the most appropriate measure
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