 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jerry
Date: 2001-05-17 01:54
"Ping" (light bulb comes on) :-)
After 6 months & about four different written sources (besides the BB info), I finally *got* the 5ths thing (one itty bitty piece of it anyway). I now understand that one goes clockwise from "C" to "G" -- "G" being the fifth note on the scale from "C" not the 5the note on the chart. Other notes are similar as one progresses clockwise. I think I see, and have in the past taken it for granted, how this chart may be used to transpose music, etc.
What I don't see, and find no explanation for it, is why 5ths? Is 5ths arbitrary or scientific? Why not 3rds or 8ths? I understand there is 4ths if one goes in reverse -- have comprehended that just yet either but working on it. I know, I know, to analyze is to paralize.
~ jerry
Still in Clarinet Boot Camp
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2001-05-17 02:14
Jerry,
I'm no expert, but I think the reason we use the Circle of 5ths, as opposed to any other interval, is because as one progresses around the circle, he or she adds one sharp to the key signature. Going in reverse adds one flate. Think about it -- C has no sharps or flats, the G has 1, D has 2, A has 3, etc. Once you reach the really gross keys (Cb/ B, Gb/ F#, Db/ C#), you move back into flats for easier reading, but it still works the same way. Eb has 3 flats, Bb has 2, etc.
Plus, the motion by 5ths takes you to all 12 pitch classes. Additional uses I guess are maybe to familiarize you with switching keys to the dominant (5th scale degree, which is like moving around the circle of 5ths) of a key.
Hopefully this answers your questions, but like I said, I'm no expert -- I'm just making a conjecture!
Melanie
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Author: Ashley
Date: 2001-05-17 04:19
whats the difference between the circle of 5ths and the cirlce of 4ths? are they just each other backwards? thats the only thing that makes sense to me..
~ashley~
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Author: Mindy's Mom
Date: 2001-05-17 10:53
well -- let me see if I can explain it over the internet. Usually I teach it to my students adn I have them in front of me and I can SEE if they understand what I am saying or not. I also have my pencil and paper so that I can draw it all out as I teach. So this is a bit new to me to do it this way
Melanie is reight about the circle of 5th adding a sharp each time as you go around the circle fo 5th. The way that happens is by tetrachords. When you play the C scale, the top tetrachord (top 4 notes of the scale -- terra=4 chord is greek for string -- technically the top 4 "strings", as it were -- we just say top 4 notes) starts on the 5th of the scale which is G (hence the circle of 5th). When you play the G scale, the top tetrachord again begins on the 5th of the scale which in this case is the D. You can continue going around the circle of 5th's all the way back to C but as you get into the enharmonic scales, you have to "change" from thinking sharps to thinking flats otherwise the system won't work. From the last enharmonic scale (C# - think of it as Db) so that as you continue it works --- ex: 5th of Db is Ab / 5ht of Ab is Eb, etc
To go the other way around teh circle (the cicle of 4th), you are are going up to the 4th degree of the scale to start your new scale or to really confuse you, you can think of the fact that that you are using the LOWER tetrachord of the scale and it begins on the 5th of the scale COMING DOWN. Or you can just say you are using the TOP note of the LOWER tetrachord to get your new scale name. Did you get that?
Another reason that we use 4th's and 5th's as the interval to use, is that they are the only PERFECT intervals (besides unison and octave). This bit of information does not "explain" anything to you, but that is one of the reasons also. Sure doesn't send the light bulb on.
As you can see from the examples that Igave you, in the 5th's as you "add" a sharp, notice that he new sharp is always added on the 7th degree of the scale and as you add the flat (going on the 4th's) you always add the flat on the 4th. This doesn't help you "see" how the 4th's and 5th's work but it is a bit of useful information.
Please feel free to ask me other theory questions and I will do my best to explain them. If this post has left you still confused on this subject, please write and I will try to explain better.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2001-05-17 12:04
I'll try to add my 2cents to this. I believe what "Mindy's Mom" wrote is correct but complex.
The way I look at it is that each 5th adds a sharp. Why? Because the major scale formed on that note requires it! Nothing more. eg: The GMaj scale has by definition 1 sharp (F). The circle is just an easy way to understand how the addition of sharps (or flats) progresses.
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Matt
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Author: Rene
Date: 2001-05-17 15:28
Gmaj goes G A B C D E F# G. These are almost all the notes from Cmaj besides the F sharp instead of F. You can get a feeling for this by playing the Cmaj notes
C D E F G F E D C
and then
C D E F# G
You will find yourself in Gmaj automatically. Thus Gmaj is sort of the next neighbor to Cmaj. And then it goes on like this in 5th upward.
Hope, that helps.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-05-17 16:24
Traditional tonal music almost always modulates from the original key (the "tonic") to the one a fifth above (the "dominant"). You get this change into your ears, and it sounds natural. Also, the final chord progression of most pieces is from the dominat chord to the tonic (a V-I "authentic" cadence). The relationship of a fifth is fundamental to tonal music, and the circle of fifths embodies this.
Going down around the circle of fifths is also a convenient and natural sounding way of practicing scales. Most people shuffle the relative minor into the sequence. Thus you play the C major scale, drop down a minor third to A minor (the relative minor), then drop down a major third to F major, then to D minor, and so on. You go through the flat keys and then backward through the sharp keys until you get back to C major.
There's a great exercise in the Klose method -- two pages doing all the major and minor scales in thirds -- which Klose says is one of the most important exercises in his book. You commit this to memory and use it as a quick way to limber up your fingers by running through all the possible keys.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2001-05-18 07:59
1 - Yes, the Circle of 5ths and Circle of 4ths are the same thing. Go downwards from G to C and you've gone a 5th. Go upwards from G to C and it's a fourth.
2 - Yes, the circle goes through the key signatures in order, Bb (2 flats) to F (1 flat) to C (no sharps or flats) to G (1 sharp) to D (2 sharps), etc. They key signatures are not the reason. This is just coincidental to the real reason. (see #3)
3 - Ken is right. It has to do with the resolution of chords. V-I. Each key on the circle is the V of the next one. (or going in the other direction, each key is the IV of the next one)
here's a flattened circle:
Gb-Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C-G-D-A-E-B-F#
Let's say we're in C. G is the V. F is the IV. No matter what key you're in, IV is on the left of I, and V is on the right of I. If you're in F, C is the V (on the right again!), and Bb is the IV (again to the left of I)
So now we're in C. If you need a dominant (V), G is just to your right. If you need a secondary dominant (V of V), D is just to the right of G.
ex. "I Got Rhythm" changes (verse)
C-A-D-G, C-A-D-G A is V of D, D is V of G and G is V of C. See how they line up on the circle as they resove step-by-step from A to C.
This also works with secondary subdominants. Let's start of "Bad Moon Rising" in C. The chords (I think) are C-Bb-F-C. Bb is IV of F, and F is IV of C. This more unusual resolution also follows the circle until it reaches the tonic (I).
Hope this helps.
Allen
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