 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Musicgirl2223
Date: 2016-04-15 04:42
So, I have a 1982 R13. It was my mom's in high school and sat in the closet for around 25 years. It has been kept in great condition and was oiled regularly even when it was not being used. When I first started, I played for a year on a Yamaha student clarinet, since my mom didn't want to give her nice clarinet to an elementary schooler. The next year, she had it appraised and was told it was worth about what a student clarinet would cost, so she gave it to me rather than continue renting the student instrument. I took great care of it, especially considering my low status as a middle school band student. We had it serviced several times over the years and had it overhauled about four years ago, though it might be a little more than that.
Fast forward to college: I was a music major (now a music minor with another three years ahead of me) and I'm in the top wind ensemble. I still love playing and have invested some money into my instrument. I have a Peter Springs floating rail ligature, and I just bought a 66mm Grenadilla Moba barrel and a Backun traditional bell this week. As soon as I got it all set up, everything broke on my clarinet through no known fault of mine. At least two of my left hand spatula keys are so pliable my teacher moved them with one finger, all of my corks either fell off or need to be replaced, I lost a felt on at least one key and parts of the nickel plating are coming off in chunks. One technician speculated that the plating was not done properly when it was first made. I believe that the bent keys might have something to do with my case, which survived two years of middle school, four years of high school, and almost two years of college. Over the years, it seems like I am constantly having to fix it for things that shouldn't be as big a problem as they are. I tend to put a few hundred (and increasing) into it every year for an instrument that I'm concerned my not be worth it.
As much as I love it, I do realize that it is 35 years old. It still has a good sound, in my opinion, but I would like some input on what would be best in the long run. It is currently at the local music shop (with good technicians who also got a lesson from Morrie Backun when he was here for a masterclass a month or so ago). They are going to call me with an estimate on repairs and an appraisal for the instrument.
To my main questions:
1) My options are repairing or buying a new one. Is it possible to have all of the keys replaced? Has anyone had this done and do you recommend it?Any thoughts?
2) What would you do in my situation? I haven't had a chance to meet with my professor about it yet because this just happened like two hours ago.
3) Do you think it will be worth it to continue to put money into this instrument? Like I said, I love it but I can't change the fact that it is getting to be pretty old to be a forever horn.
4) If you think it is worth it to just replace the instrument, what ones would you recommend? I would like to keep my Backun barrel and bell since I just bought them, but I tried all of the Backun clarinets at a demo and wasn't thrilled with them. I did prefer my horn, but I am open to suggestions if I do need a new one. I know not to buy one without trying it first, but I'd like some input on where to start if I do need to start looking.
Thank you!
Emily
Post Edited (2016-04-15 05:07)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-15 07:27
I think this is a cost analysis question (despite the sentimental value). Many of the older horns were well made, but there are some issues that could be caused by various aspects of the wood changing shape over the years (bore becoming more ovate, tone holes going out of round, etc.).
So you would need to decide if doing all the work on that horn will be somewhat close to the cost of a new horn (new R13s are going for about $3,800 last time I checked).
Personally I like to go new, but I don't hold on to stuff long enough to get that worn out in the first place. The down side of new, is that you would need to find an R13 that you like and plays in tune with the way you play.
Suggestion, before you do anything, try a new R13 and see what differences you feel and hear. That may help you decide how to proceed.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Musicgirl2223
Date: 2016-04-15 07:31
That is a great suggestion! Thank you! As a follow up, how much does the average player put into an instrument a year in terms of repairs? Since I've never really had a new clarinet, I can't know what most people find reasonable to put into a clarinet. When I had it overhauled, it was around 425 and I think I've spent at least three hundred a year since then in tune ups.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-04-15 07:45
1) It's possible in theory but probably unnecessary. It's almost never necessary.
2) Most likely there are some problems that are possible to repair. It doesn't sound like anything unusual.
3) It's probably worth investing in it. I don't remember the prices exactly but I think a new equivalent clarinet would be about $3,000.
4) I would see how much it costs to repair. It's old but not that old for a clarinet. Only someone who can see it and check it can say how much it would cost, but even a complete mechanical overhaul would cost much less than a new one.
The only separate issue is the plating. Unless you just don't like how it looks, or the worn areas have a sharp edge, then consider leaving it the way it is. It's not standard to replate when repairing a clarinet (most send it to a plating company).
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Author: Musicgirl2223
Date: 2016-04-15 07:53
The edges are a little bit sharp. If I had a picture I'd post it, but the horn is at the repair shop at the moment. I'm sure I'll get the estimate tomorrow, but my biggest concern is that I'm going to have to continuously put money into an instrument that might not be worth it. What if the same things keep happening and I have to take two weeks away from band twice a year and spend three hundred dollars each time to get it fixed? Should I replace it if the cost of repairing exceeds the cost of the instrument?
How often does a new buffet clarinet need repairs on average? Obviously each one is different, but the amount of money I'd have to put into it over time would probably make up for buying a new horn, wouldn't it?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-04-15 11:21
An R13 from 1982 is likely to be a better quality instrument than a current production R13. Considering that yours spent a long time in storage and was looked after during this time it's probably still fundamantally sound. I can't imagine that the issues you're experiencing are caused by any major problems, the R13 is well-built and stands up well to the rigours of professional playing.
I can't think of any reason to replace all the keys, just sorting out the current problem should be adequate. I've never heard of anybody replacing all the keys on an instrument.
The flaky plating is more of an issue. You could get it replated, but I'd consider it more cost-effective to have your tech machine-buff the keywork to get rid of the rough edges. In your situation I'd consider getting a back-up instrument so that maintenance of your main instrument doesn't interrupt your studies.
Tony F.
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Author: lagatitalila
Date: 2016-04-15 12:03
If your case is crappy, it's possible that the environment inside is affecting your horn beyond just (hah) squashing your keys. So if you continue to repair this instrument, get yourself a new case to protect your investment.
Both my Bb and A are 1989 R13s that were owned and played regularly (frequently? not sure) by a professional prior to my purchasing them. They needed minor, but semi-frequent attention until I got an overhaul about 15 years ago. They have had one servicing since then, about ten years ago, to fix a leak. Since I was getting that done, I had them oiled and had other non-mandatory pad work done as well as had my corks changed. I played regularly for about five years after and infrequently up until last September. Now I play daily and all I need are new tenon corks and maybe a reseating of two pads on my Bb lower joint. I've done some minor oiling with Doctors Products and they both play as well as they always have.
Point being that immaculate work by an excellent tech should last years before you need another overhaul. I think your key-squashing case is the source of your problems and the reason you might need to dump more money into your clarinet.
But, if you go the new horn route, keep in mind that new Buffet's usually need work done. Not sure if that's the case with new Yamahas and Selmers. I think Ridernour and Backun are the only makers who adjust their clarinets before shipping them out.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-04-15 15:46
Hi MusicGirl,
If I were you, I wouldn't have it repaired again. I would have it completely overhauled by a master technician (Wes Rice, Wojtek Komsta, Philip Clark, etc etc etc). It will cost you $500-800. It will respond and play better than it has in years.
If, after the overhaul, you decide you want a new horn -- add the price of the overhaul to your asking price. That is was recently overhauled by a reputable tech will insure that it sells faster and you get to move on.
But I would put it in one person's hands for a completed rebuild. Not only for the concerns you have, but so the work is total and questions can be directed to one source who was responsible for the work.
James
Ps: Legatitalia's point is a good one: NEW Buffet's often need a lot of work to play properly. The $$$ on an overhaul would be well spent.
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: ClarinettyBetty
Date: 2016-04-15 16:55
I just traded in my newer R13 for a c. 1965 R13. It's at a master technician's right now getting "souped up," and I can't even imagine how good it'll play then. I had a 1982 R13 A and it was absolutely wonderful. It sounds like yours needs an overhaul; honestly, after playing both old and new R13s, older is better in my opinion.
I'd try the overhaul first (by a master technician, not just "some guy" at the local shop. It'll be expensive, but worth it. Besides, even if you get a brand new horn, you'll still spend money getting it adjusted, like another poster said.
It's up to you, but just keep in mind, newer isn't always better!
-----------------------
Eb: 1972 Buffet BC20
Bb: Selmer Paris Presence
A: Selmer Paris Presence
Bass: 1977 LeBlanc
https://gentrywoodwinds.com
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Author: Musicgirl2223
Date: 2016-04-15 19:45
Thank you for all of the input. I do have a second horn, but it's not great quality and needs to be cleaned really badly, which I can't afford at the moment if I have to overhaul or purchase a new instrument. It seems like I've had problems with it more since I had it overhauled but I was also a relatively new player before that. I've learned a lot since then, but I do know that there are some things I wasn't happy with afterwards. For example, they put cork pads on the lower joint and none of them were sealing properly. I didn't notice for well over a year until my teacher looked at it and wasn't sure how I was actually getting sound out. I will look into get it done by a master tech. How long does that generally take and does it cost in the market of 500-800 dollars? Also, my clarinet seems to have trouble holding adjustments, especially on the lower joint. Is there something that can be done about that, especially if I have it done by a master tech, or do I just have to suck it up and pay to have the same things fixed every six months?
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Author: Musicgirl2223
Date: 2016-04-15 20:21
Thanks! I just got an email from my teacher and we're getting it sorted out. She is going to take it to Backun the next time she goes and see what Morrie thinks. Hopefully we can get it fixed sooner rather than later.
Post Edited (2016-04-15 23:13)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2016-04-15 23:36
You can also call Peter Spriggs. Overhauling R13 is his specialty.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-16 01:03
1) My options are repairing or buying a new one. Is it possible to have all of the keys replaced? Has anyone had this done and do you recommend it?Any thoughts?
- Have it completely overhauled and the keys replated - it will be pretty much like a new instrument but one that's still familiar to you.
2) What would you do in my situation? I haven't had a chance to meet with my professor about it yet because this just happened like two hours ago.
- If they think your clarinet is worth spending the money on having it rebuilt (as many others here do), then that's your best option.
3) Do you think it will be worth it to continue to put money into this instrument? Like I said, I love it but I can't change the fact that it is getting to be pretty old to be a forever horn.
- Stop having it patched up bit by bit and go the whole hog on a complete rebuild and replate. I'd have the keys and other parts all silver plated as silver plate is applied much thicker than nickel and provided it has been plated well, it shouldn't flake off.
4) If you think it is worth it to just replace the instrument, what ones would you recommend? I would like to keep my Backun barrel and bell since I just bought them, but I tried all of the Backun clarinets at a demo and wasn't thrilled with them. I did prefer my horn, but I am open to suggestions if I do need a new one. I know not to buy one without trying it first, but I'd like some input on where to start if I do need to start looking.
- If you like your clarinet better than any others you've tried, then stick with it (and with the Backun barrel and bell), but spend the money on g=having it completely rebuilt and the keys replated as that is far less than the cost of a brand new instrument of the same level (which is a pro level clarinet).
While the cost of regular servicing does add up over time, that's not a determining factor in questioning if your clarinet is still worth having money spent on it. If you like your clarinet, then it's worth spending whatever money on it to make sure it's always in top playing form. But after many years of having it serviced which only addresses several minor problems, it does get to a point when you should consider a complete overhaul so everything is done in one go and you have in effect a brand new clarinet and a new starting point for it as every issue will be addressed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-04-16 02:37
If Vandoren still has the specs for the Diamond Perfecta and produced it to CNC accuracy, but it didn't smell like mothballs, would it still be a Diamond Perfecta?
But, a few more serious observations. Cahuzac sounded wonderful on his, if we can be sure that is was he usually played, and somewhere Donald Montanaro said that for most of his long career as Eb clarinetist with Philadelphia, the only mouthpiece he used on the little instrument was an Eb Diamond Perfecta. Phillipe Cuper and Guy Dangain would probably know for sure if Cahuzac made his recordings, etc, on a Diamond Perfecta. Cuper has one of Cahuzac's old Buffet clarinets and, just possibly, some of his old mouthpieces. What of the market demand for Diamond Perfectas, though. I've bought some on the famous website, and they have always gone for well under $200.00 (sometimes under $100.00.) Very differerent from an old Henri Chedeville which always goes for over $800, a Kanter, which commands at least $400.00, or an Henri Leroy or Alexandre Robert, which can go for between $500.00 and $1,000.00 if not more. Cicero and Chicago Kaspars also are still pricey in resale.
So does this unwillingless of collectors to pay much for Vandoren Diamond Perfectas mean that not a lot of players are all that interested in getting even an original much less a copy? (I never got much competition on my rather low bids). What would be Vandoren's motive for reissuing it?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-04-16 04:10
MusicGirl -- I'm glad to hear that you've got a plan in place.
"For example, they put cork pads on the lower joint and none of them were sealing properly."
Cork pads on the lower joint? Work may have been done, and you may have paid an expensive price for it, but that's not knowledgable work.
I would love to hear what you think after the work is done. Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-04-16 10:57
If you like the clarinet other than some wear/mechanical issues, then even completely repairing it (by an excellent repairer) would probably cost much less than replacing it with a new clarinet. You'll also end up with a clarinet you like in a condition that is probably better (mechanically and playing-wise) than a new clarinet and if you have it replated, might look like new too.
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