 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-30 03:21
I only met Yona Ettlinger once, after a public class I led.
"You are VERY free," he said.
I think it was a criticism, probably. (I had asked a young player to take her shoes off to play, I remember:-)
Anyway, he was really a master clarinet player. His recordings of the Mozart and Brahms quintets are available, and are exemplary.
Now, I only heard this from his students, so perhaps it only applied to particular ones of them. But I've found it useful, and share it here.
He said, "When you play single lip, you can nevertheless think of your top lip as pushing down on the mouthpiece more than your teeth do."
The usefulness of that for me is that by symmetry it immediately flexes my lower lip, which might have been underflexed at that moment. And that gives me greater control, which I might not have noticed.
There's an obvious analogy with the current DL/SL conversation. If you play SL, you can forget your lower lip more easily than if you play DL.
BUT, on the other hand, RELAXING your lower lip accesses a whole range of tone colours and intonations that aren't available with a flexed lip...
Tony
Post Edited (2016-03-30 23:29)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-30 05:13
Ettlinger's recordings of the Brahms Trio and the Brahms Sonatas are first-rate too. I've always admired how much variety of sound and expression he was able to show without relying on any vibrato. He must have had extraordinary sensitivity in both lips to produce such colors and shadings, ranging from relaxed to intense, always to promote rather distract from the natural flow of the music.
Some Brahms with Ettlinger and Pnina Salzman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgYCKMQ7Drc.
Post Edited (2016-03-30 05:14)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-30 05:37
Very interesting. I haven't thought much at all about flexing the lower lip. Of late I've thought more about how much lower lip to take in past the teeth, which I annoyingly seem to vary (without telling myself) depending on register. But that lip is certainly flexed in some way(s) to some degree, and no doubt I'm all over the map there too. Something to delve into.
Ettlinger's and the Tel Aviv Quartet's recording of the Brahms Quintet is stunningly good, my favorite version, mixing emotion and restraint so poignantly, and with such a beautiful, tight, richly evocative sound. I've heard others of Ettlinger's recordings, and they're very good, but I never have gotten quite the same musical thrill from them.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-03-30 17:32
Tony Pay is correct about Yona Ettlinger. The man was my teacher and friend.
Yona's approach, in lessons with me at least, was much more about proper breathing and blowing than about embouchure. He knew of course that I played double lip but he didn't seem to care about it all that much. But I did hear him in masterclasses talk about using the upper lip in single lip playing as Tony describes. For several of my friends, that little bit of guidance made a big difference.
One of the most amazing things about Yona Ettlinger, apart from his truly outstanding musicianship, was his "lifted" sound (to use his expression). Sitting next to him, his sound was incredibly pure but somewhat small. Yet, the further you moved away, the bigger it got. He could always be heard, even in the softest passages.
I was present in London, staying in Yona's apartment, when he was rehearsing with the Tel Aviv String Quartet for the great RCA recording of the Mozart Quintet. They had performed it hundreds of times, and could play it by memory. Yet they worked and worked and worked, as if they were playing it for the first time. It was a real eye-opener for me. I think I listened to them rehearse the coda in the second movement for a day and half -- until the mood they were searching for was perfectly clear to them all.
I've said it before and will say it again: Yona Ettlinger was one of the greatest musicians ever to play the clarinet.
Post Edited (2016-03-30 19:12)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-30 20:49
Paul, it is often said that Ettlinger's main formal clarinet teacher was the famous French soloist, Louis Cahuzac. I've often wondered if Ettlinger consciously tried to pass on any of Cahuzac's approach to the students. Did he mention Cahuzac in any of your lessons?
Also, did Ettlinger teach clarinet mostly from actual solo and chamber works for clarinet and orchestral excepts or did he use some progression of clarinet etudes and studies, like Baermann, Rose, Rode, Cavallini, Labanchi,Jeanjean, Stark, etc.? Did he use Cahuzac's 10 Etudes et Petite Piece de Dechiffrage in his teaching?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-30 22:18
Thanks for the links. Sounds like Ettlinger rather ruthlessly set the same standards for his students that he set for himself, a strategy that can easily get out of hand. In his recorded performances he seems to be in agreement with his pianists and string quartets, though, rather than fighting them. With him, I suppose, you had to have the right disposition to get along; he wasn't going to adapt much--either the chemistry was there or it wasn't.
Still, I keep returing to his splendid performances to hear the great musicality and magically "glowing" sound. He is a classic example of "classical" clarinet artistry even if he did not have the secret key, as that student thought, to the one best way of playing Rameau.
Would still like to know more about the curriculum and sequence of study books and music that he used, if, indeed, he adhered to any such regular progression.
Post Edited (2016-03-30 22:27)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-30 23:20
>> Would still like to know more about the curriculum and sequence of study books and music that he used, if, indeed, he adhered to any such regular progression. >>
But, why? I want to ask.
Tony
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-30 23:47
Maybe I'm addicted to the topic from taking classes in music education, curriculum and materials, and lesson planning. Are these pecularily American concerns? Some American pros still love to talk, often with trepidation, about how they studied the Alfred Uhl 48 Etudes or the U. Delecluse 14 Grand Etudes with Lurie or the Polatschek's Advanced Studies with Montanaro or the Jeanjean 16 and 18 with somebody else. Maybe it's just a kind of nostalgia to bring back good (or bad) memories? Or a traveller's entertainment: "Wow, in Vienna they make the students play a lot of those Rudolph Jettel Etudes. The kids must be up all hours of the night practicing those things."
Post Edited (2016-03-31 00:44)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2016-03-31 00:10
I've really enjoyed listening to Yona's Brahms and Mozart recordings--ashamed to say I hadn't heard his playing until now.
I read that he studied composition with Boulanger. My ear training teacher as well as my counterpoint and harmony teacher were both Boulanger pupils. Having experienced the distillation of Boulanger's approach myself, I can certainly believe the anecdotes about Yona's teaching. Boulanger's harmony students, for example, typically studied root position chords for the entirety of their first year (the following year added first inversions). She seems to have attracted students looking for a guru--someone with a completely systematic approach that could provide all the answers. Perhaps Yona was the same way.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-31 00:49
>> "Wow, in Vienna they make the students play a lot of those Rudolph Jettel Etudes." >>
My youthful studies consisted of Rudolph Jettel Etudes plus whatever else I wanted to present to my teacher.
Make of that what you will.
Tony
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2016-03-31 01:09
Some time ago there was a picture on the cover of The Clarinet magazine of Robert Marcellus. You could see what appeared to be a remarkably developed upper lip. Someone told me that he was an advocate of applying that downward pressure to the mouthpiece with his upper lip. If you google "robert marcellus picture", one of the several that come up is a side view that shows his upper lip in use.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-31 01:10
Well then you see how interesting it is to recount some of the etudes that helped you become a top player! No doubt Wenzell Fuchs, Sabine Meyer, and Andreas Ottensamer also played many of the Jettel Etudes coming up, much to their benefit and ours. Personally I'm glad I "discovered" the Jettel: I like them a lot because they stretch not only the fingers to move in unaccustomed directions but also the ear to hear beyond hackneyed melodic and harmonic patterns. They pose exactly the right kind of challenges for practice. So maybe Ettlinger used something just as interesting that many of us haven't yet discovered? How would we know if we didn't ask?
Post Edited (2016-03-31 01:15)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-03-31 01:53
In my experience, Yona Ettlinger seems to have taken a very individual approach with each student.
I actually discussed this with him at some length a number of times and he felt that it was important not to be rigid in teaching a person how play the clarinet and, ultimately, how to play music on the clarinet. To him, each person was starting in a different place and moving at his or her own pace to his or her own destination. It was a highly personalized approach.
Yes, Yona studied with Cahuzac and yes, he also studied composition with Boulanger. He also played the piano passably, although he never referred to himself as a pianist.
I don't remember doing any study or etude books with Yona, just pieces. Rather, small sections of pieces. He was very exacting with me, always trying to get me to listen to myself at a deeper level. It was frustrating at times but eventually, I think I did start to pay more attention to what I was doing and to play with more nuances. That, of course, was the hallmark of his own playing. He had great fingers and could play anything but his virtuosity was expressed in subtleties and nuances. You can hear that if you listen to his recordings.
Post Edited (2016-03-31 02:31)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-31 02:47
I probably have other things that I'll want to say to the contributors to this thread; but I just wanted to point out that my primary concern in posting originally was not with Yona Ettlinger himself, but with his top lip.
Tony
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-03-31 04:14
pg@writeability wrote: ''One of the most amazing things about Yona Ettlinger, apart from his truly outstanding musicianship, was his "lifted" sound (to use his expression). Sitting next to him, his sound was incredibly pure but somewhat small. Yet, the further you moved away, the bigger it got. He could always be heard, even in the softest passages. ''
By saying ''somewhat small'' do you mean, soft or low volume and, by the same token ''the bigger it got'' does that mean that it became louder, a higher volume?
Can you explain how, by moving away from Yona Ettlinger, the perception of loudness increases? Simple physics would seem to suggest otherwise.
This is not a concept that I can easily grasp.
P.S. I'm also interested in your definition of the phrase ''incredibly pure''. It's clearly a declaration of your admiration for his playing, but is it something else as well?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-31 04:26
>> Well then you see how interesting it is to recount some of the etudes that helped you become a top player!>>
Let me 'interest you' further.
I was set those etudes from the age of around 14-16. I don't think I EVER completed one of them – no, sorry, I did complete the first page of one of them for an audition for the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain.
Being a member of THAT was what helped me to become a 'top player'.
My lessons on those etudes were a nightmare for me, and consisted of my trying to bullshit my teacher that I'd made anything like an effort at them.
Anything that I ever did that made me succeed occurred either in the NYO or in what I did by myself, and with my peers, while I was supposed to be reading Mathematics at Cambridge.
So, take me out of the 'Jettel' category.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-31 04:47
ned wrote:
>> pg@writeability wrote:Quote:
One of the most amazing things about Yona Ettlinger, apart from his truly outstanding musicianship, was his "lifted" sound (to use his expression). Sitting next to him, his sound was incredibly pure but somewhat small. Yet, the further you moved away, the bigger it got. He could always be heard, even in the softest passages. >> By saying "somewhat small" do you mean, soft or low volume and, by the same token "the bigger it got" does that mean that it became louder, a higher volume?
>> Can you explain how, by moving away from Yona Ettlinger, the perception of loudness increases? Simple physics would seem to suggest otherwise.
>> This is not a concept that I can easily grasp.>>
I understand your problem; but the experience is that sometimes if you sit next to a player who seems to be playing loudly, and then go outside the orchestra, you can't really hear them; but sitting next to another player who seems relatively quiet, outside the orchestra you CAN hear them very clearly.
It's not a question of loudness, but a question of audibility. Probably there is a physical correlate – perhaps to do with harmonic content – that explains that; but anyway the phenomenon is real.
Tony
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-03-31 04:52
ned: It's not easy to describe sound with words. I'm obviously not particularly good at it. Forgive me.
His recordings for RCA come pretty close to representing how Yona Ettlinger sounded in person. I use the words clarity and purity to describe that sound but another person may use something else -- with equal validity.
I think Tony Pay has answered your question.
Post Edited (2016-03-31 05:01)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-31 05:12
Please don't get in your heads about this thread.
It won't have been worthwhile my posting if you don't think, not about Yona Ettilinger, or even about his top lip.
Think about YOUR top lip.
Tony
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-31 05:13
Tony,
Ok, I've removed you from the progressive etude and Jettel category and any associated B.S. But you have to admit that, in your first mention of Jettel, you certainly made it sound like you had practiced and played "Rudolph Jettel Etudes" and you gave me leave to "make of that what you will," so I did. If you had just come out and said that you didn't like the Jettel etudes, I would never have made the egregious error of thinking that you might share my fondness for them. Each to his own. I couldn't play them even when I was in my twenties and used to just read through them silently every day. But later I did learn to play and enjoy them. So now we are both clear on that. Glad you established that the youth orchestra is most responsible for your development and success. Hereafter, I promise never to say otherwise.
Post Edited (2016-03-31 17:29)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-31 05:31
Paul,
I think you are very good with words. Your description, "his virtuosity was expressed in subtleties and nuances" perfectly describes Ettlinger's style. You were present when he played, and you know. Thanks for sharing your experiences here.
Post Edited (2016-03-31 05:52)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-31 05:57
Now I'm getting interested in both lips. I play double lip, but I really haven't begun to explore ways or degrees to flex them. They are always "flexed", somewhat shaped by connected muscles. I hadn't really thought of pushing downward on the mouthpiece with the upper lip. I would think that encouraging mouthpiece vibration is a goal, and by extension vibration of the holding tissues as well - and some tension in them is needed for that to happen. Perhaps some frequencies can be enhanced / muted.
Must experiment, and will probably start during long tones tomorrow. It's hard to ingrain fine muscle control.
Might relisten to some recordings as well, by Ettlinger, Marcellus, and Pay.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-31 06:09
Philip,
Might want to listen to Harold Wright also, to get a double lip player on board. Check out his Strauss Duet Concertino, Schubert Shepherd on the Rock, Stravinsky Story of a Soldier, Weber Concerto 2, and Mozart and Brahms Quintet recordings for starters, if you haven't already.
Post Edited (2016-03-31 06:50)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-31 07:01
My favorite Wright by far is the Mendelssohn Octet with the Boston Symphony Chamber Players.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-03-31 13:02
I'm very glad to learn of Yona Ettlinger. I've been hearing Brahms anew in his recordings since this thread appeared. Thanks, Tony!
The top lip pushing down (and in) has been a basic part of how I teach single lip embouchure for a long time (I've seen it referred to somewhere as a modified single lip embouchure), but I really like the idea of the top lip applying more pressure than the teeth, at least as a teaching tool. The thought of a relaxed lower lip providing useful tone variation is a new one that I've just begun experimenting with. Thanks again, Tony.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-03-31 15:19
Paul -
The Mendelssohn octet is for strings only. Schubert wrote the Octet with clarinet. The Boston recording with Wright is maybe the best. I also love a live tape from the Library of Congress with McLane and the Budapest Quartet.
Nellsonic -
At a Gigliotti master class, he said he would have preferred to play double lip, but he couldn't stand the pain of his upper teeth cutting into the lip. (He used *extremely* hard reeds.) He said that he used the method Tony describes of tucking his upper lip tight against his teeth and pressing down very hard so that his teeth put almost no pressure on the top of the mouthpiece.
I play double lip all the time, sometimes with a bit of chamois over my upper teeth to save my lip. On the few occasions that I play single lip, I do the same tuck and press method Tony describes.
Tony -
Welcome back. It's great to have your expertise and experience again.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-31 15:48
Thanks for the correction Ken.
I mixed my melodists.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-03-31 16:23
Getting back to the subject of Yona Ettlinger's top lip, I should mention that Yona had some kind of a special patch on the top of his mouthpiece to accommodate his upper teeth. It was quite a bit thicker than your standard rubber patch.
I actually tried his set up several times and could only play on it because, as a double-lip player myself, my teeth did not contact the beak of the mouthpiece. Had I tried to play it single lip, it might not have been possible.
The mouthpiece was a Selmer and as I recall, the feel was very "free," if that tells you anything. He used Vandoren reeds and in those days, he would go to Vandoren in Paris to try reeds before purchasing them (not sure one can do that anymore). I accompanied him to Vandoren on these reed-buying trips on a couple of occasions. I also went once with him to the Buffet factory in Mantes-La-Ville, France, when he on the hunt for a new A clarinet.
It was a great tragedy that he died so young.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-03-31 20:36
Concerning upper lip pressure, I was struck by this aspect in the wonderful playing of Amaury Viduvier, which was recently highlighted here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHzA3ArHar0
To me, his upper lip looks incredibly relaxed - almost as if it was barely touching the mouthpiece.
But maybe this is an illusion. In any case, even before he gets going on the double tonguing, his basic sound is wonderfully full and resonant.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-03-31 20:49
Thanks, Tony. Never heard the reunion before.
Off the "top lip" topic, here's anecdote about Yona Ettlinger that you may enjoy. It illustrates the man's rather unique sense of humour. Allow me to set the scene.
The place: A quasi masterclass at a summer session of the National Youth Orchestra of Canada in Vancouver, circa 1972 or thereabouts.
Attendees: The orchestra's clarinet section and about a dozen other players, all university-level musicians (I was one of the NYO section players).
Atmosphere: Nervous and serious.
One young fellow played a section of a Brahms sonata, as I recall. He finished and Yona said nothing. He just kept nodding his head, as if in approval of what he had just heard. The silence was protracted, probably lasting about 30 seconds but feeling as if it went on for much longer.
Finally, Yona asks the kid: "Does your teacher tell you you have a bad sound?"
The kid was dumbfounded and rest of us were shocked. I actually thought he sounded pretty good so I had no idea what this was about and I was instantly shaking in fear thinking about what Yona might say to me when it was my turn to be in the hot seat.
"No," the kid says.
"Why is that? He doesn't hear it?"
Talk about a double-barreled insult. For a couple of more seconds, nothing happened. Then Yona burst into peals of laughter.
It was, of course, a joke, calculated to make everybody relax and it worked like magic. The rest of the class was lively and much less tense. I don't think any of us who were there ever forgot it.
Post Edited (2016-04-01 00:33)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-31 22:10
What he told the kid was shock treatment to clear the air and get everybody to relax. Not for the faint of heart though! Thanks Tony for the Soundcloud link to some glorious clarinet playing. I don't really care if Ettlinger practiced even a bar of Jettel. It's more than enough to hear him play Mozart and Brahms like that.
Post Edited (2016-03-31 22:25)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-04-01 02:39
I think that some people have a fundamental misunderstanding of this subject.
The crucial thing is that lower lip contact with the reed modulates the sound.
Yes, I made the post about Yona's upper lip. But the flexion of the upper lip is just a REMINDER that the lower lip needs to be flexed. More importantly, on top of that: that lower lip needs to be capable of flexion to subtly varying degrees.
I thought that I had made that clear in my post:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2002/04/000770.txt
What UPPER lip flexion does is to TEND to 'pump up' the bicycle tire of the lower lip, in case that may be necessary.
If it isn't necessary, of course, you don't do it; and you judge whether or not it's necessary by listening to the result.
Pretty obviously, you can operate the upper and lower lips independently. It's just that you MAY do better with more flexion rather than less, and the symmetry tendency biases the lower lip in that direction.
So, flexing the upper lip – say by pushing down on the mouthpiece – can be a useful reminder.
But it doesn't have the status of something you SHOULD do.
Tony
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