 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-05-16 02:37
Hi Everyone,
I did an impulsive thing and bought this clarinet" http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1428159674".
I have not yet received it and the suspense is killing me! What Is It?
I think I get the Bb vent but please elaborate...
Is full Boehm? Does it have an articulated G#?
Please excuse my ignorance but I have never seen one quite like this.
My very best regards,
-=[Joe Vacc]=-
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Author: AaronD
Date: 2001-05-16 04:14
As to the first questino...Full Böhm...No.
One could be easily fooled by the ring on the third finger of the left hand AND the three tone holes on the right side of the lower joint. However, there is not another tone/resanator key under the left hand Eb/Bb key(as on a full Böhm) also, there Looks to be what appeares to be a low Eb key on the horn, where at closer glance there is no Eb key on either side of the horn to depress. Plus if you look further, it seems that instead of having just the low E and F tone hole on the right side of the horn, they have the low F# key on the same side of the bore as the low E and F key. This is an Odd occourance, but hey it seemed to work for that horn.
The Bb vent is simply for intonnation and speaking purposes. The vent in lower registers(hence the use of the ring on the third finger of the left hand, much like a saxophone octave venting system) is open playing throat Bb, however when the third figer is lifted off the ring, the top(normal) register vent opens. That's all I can formulate about that aspect. I have never played a horn with this configuration, but It seems to be similar to otther double vent systems(with exceptionof patricola, and a few others).
I am no Leblanc historian so I can't teel you anything aboutthe horn itself except for that fact that it looks like it will play. Other than that, it seems like a good buy, and I hope I have answered at least 2 or 3 of your questions.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-05-16 14:03
Aaron has done a fine job of informing you of your GREAT buy. If there is any other info on the cl, names, patent #s etc, let us know as we can prob tell you more. I have a number of LeBlanc's early patents and have given an early "jump-key" horn and a 50-60s "Classic" model to son and grandson and may have their serial #s for date estimation. The register key- "pinch Bb" mechanism is much like I recall being shown in an early BASS cl "double-register-key" patent [will find it!]. Yours may be operated from the extra ring [left ring finger] , as Aaron pointed out, there appears to NOT be the "usual" small vent hole/pad beneath the sliver key for a "clean" "fork" Eb/Bb fingering, as a "full Boehm cl would have. It appears to me that the "extra" lowF/C pad is the same as frequently used on Bass cls to "clean-up" the lowG/D venting. SO, to me, I believe you have a "cross" of bass mechanisms applied to a soprano cl , Highly unusual , possibly a museum horn !! Being a LeBlanc "lover" and a collector, if you desire to sell, please let me know [is this OK, Mark C?]. I'll post again as I may find some patents and will review the pics. Don
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-05-16 16:07
Thank you Don and Aaron- for the encouraging remarks! I am sure you know the buyers remorse before receiving an ebay horn! It is most unusual indeed. I can't wait to get it. Maybe that is some fabulous mouthpiece in there! I will certainly post after I receive it. Off to the Post Office!
Best,
-=[Joe Vacc]=-
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Author: Brent
Date: 2001-05-16 17:27
I suspect that the mechanism for the vent is activated by the 1st finger left hand "A" key (so that it is only opened when the standard throat Bb fingering is used). Look at the front of the top joint--there is a small arm which connects with the "A" key just below the pad cup. When the "A" key is depressed, the lower pad on the rear of the top joint is opened by the register key. When the "A" key is closed, the normal vent is opened (regardless of what note in the second register is being played). I have a LeBlanc (from a good deal earlier than that) with this same mechanism. It gives a very nice throat Bb.
Mine also has the extra ring on the LH, although i don't recall the F#/C# pad on the RH joint being located as shown in the picture. The extra ring facilitates a 1-3 Bb in the upper register--making for a good Ab-Bb trill. It also helps tremedously with one of the arpeggios toward the end of Debussy's Rhapsodie...
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Author: Stephen Froehlich
Date: 2001-05-16 18:03
As Don said, the register key looks remarkably similar to the mechanism I've seen on some (methinks LeBlanc and Vito) bass clarinets (at least those without double bridge keys). I am sure that it is there strictly to clear up the "pinch" throat Bb, as the only other key it is connected to is the throat A.
As for the extra ring for the right hand ring, notice that there insn't a seam or any levers to indicate that that ring moves at all separately from the right middle finger ring. In addition, notice that the bridge key is attached to that same rod. Therefore, its a simple addition to allow yet another alternate fingering of Bb (Eb).
Of course, that raises the question of how did we find ourselves in the situation that three fingerings for clarion Bb isn't enough? But I think that's one for a different thread.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-05-16 18:53
Dern that AOL! it cut me off on starting a post! Well analyzed S F, on further viewing it looks to me that the reg. key mechs. are the Stubbins patent US 2,508,550 or a modification thereof [I have a "Stubbins-Noblet, much the same] but that leaves us with the 7th ring question. On it I agree with S F that it looks like a "fork" fingering for Eb/Bb [without the usual {Full Boehm type} small vent hole/pad] which , yes, is a 4th alternate but does give, as Brent points out, better trill capabilities. Please let us know, Joe!! Re: the "doubled hole/pads'" for F/C, they are common on the better basses, and date back at least to the turn-of-the-century Albert system soprano cls [have a couple]. The LeBlanc pats I referred to are US 1,926,489 [jump keys etc], 2,627,776 [bass and alto reg key/pinch Bb mech] and 2,832,250 [1958, filed 1954, sop? cl mech reg/pinch with A key link] . I believe they can be viewed on USPTO and DELPHION pat sites, if you have trouble just ask . We are going to visit the Shrine to Music Museum in Vermillion, SD, {Univ} and I will mention all of this to Dr.Reeves, Curator [also a cl'ist-professor] who prob will be interested as time allows. Velly interesting. Don
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-05-16 22:02
Joe -
You got a good buy on an oldish Leblanc, probably from the late 40s or early 50s. It does not have an articulated C#/G#, but it does have the 7th ring for the left ring finger, which gives you a "fork" Eb/Bb with the left index and ring fingers. As others have noted, it doesn't have the usual extra vent attached to the left middle finger ring, so the intonation may not be good, particularly in the low register. Still, it's nothing to throw away.
The double hole for low F/clarion C is uncommon but not un-heard-of. It's standard on Reform Boehm instruments and many bass clarinets and provides better venting for G/D.
The register mechanism has an upper hole for the clarion and a lower hole that is added for the throat Bb. The lower hole is operated by a lever attached to the throat A key. When the A key is opened and the register key is pressed, both holes open. When the A key is down, only the upper hole opens. This is very similar to the Stubbins SK mechanism and the mechanism used by Luis Rossi and Steve Fox on their instruments. The throat Bb is not perfect, as it is with the Mazzeo and the old Selmer Omega mechanisms, because the upper key is also open for the throat Bb. However, the sound is much clearer than the standard fingering with just the register key, and the register vent can also be smaller and higher, in a better acoustical position, which should make the upper register easier and better in tune.
The instrument looks like it will need new pads, but should come up nicely. Let us know how it turns out.
Good luck.
Ken Shaw
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-05-16 22:26
Very Very Exciting!!!!!!! I just got the clarinet and it is unbelievable!! The Bb is one of the clearest most beautiful I've ever heard. This horn is a pleasure to play- great key work! Mozart's Quintet came out of it and I never played it before. ;~) I think after a proper tweaking it will be quite good enough to keep me from wanting a better horn for a while. Thank you for all the great commentary thus far... I have to go play now before it gets to late! (I have little ones)
Ciao for now...
-=[Joe Vacc]=-
P.S. imagine an ebay horn in original condition unrepaired by sales people - who knew...
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-05-17 03:15
Ken,
As usual you are so correct. I have only played it for a short time but the intonation seems to be just dandy. This horn is one of those rare finds. The pads are shot as you said but they still hold air like a champ! The 7th ring is just as you all surmised - for the "forked Eb/Bb.
Ken wrote:
>"When the A key is opened and the register key is pressed, both holes open."
>"The throat Bb is not perfect, as it is with the Mazzeo and the old Selmer Omega mechanisms, because the upper key is also open for the throat Bb."
The upper tone hole is closed when the A key and the register keys are pressed. The only time that the lower tone hole opens is for the throat Bb. I will be glad to post proper pictures if you all would like to see the mechanism up close.
Thank you Ken and all for all the great info! Only on *this* forum can one rely on so many people coming through with much knowledge and support!
-=[Joe Vacc]=-
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