 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2016-03-23 21:09
Hey all,
I know that this is an old conversation but I'm recently dipping back into it. I recently had a lesson with Jason Shafer (Colorado Symphony) and he was advocating for more double lip practice to strengthen my lips and discourage jaw pressure, something that I think we all agree is valuable. I've started using more and more double lip in my practicing and now I'm not sure I can go back. Single lip feels so rigid and I feel like I bite immediately. The original plan had been to use double lip toward a stronger and more efficient single lip approach but now I'm not sure. Any ideas on this? Anyone else have trouble going back after double lip?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-23 21:26
Yes. That was my experience as well. I gave in and decided to make the change permanent. That was 40+ years ago. I'm still at it.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-23 21:56
Same here. I was only experimenting with double lip, and when my lips got tired or too sore I'd switch back to single. Then I noticed I was automatically going to double lip whenever I put the mouthpiece in my mouth. It felt righter all around, apart from being less stable. I felt I could get better sound, better articulation, and more music (if that makes any sense) using double lip.
Knowing what I know now I believe I could switch back to single lip and retain the qualities that seemed to come with double. But why? Maybe if I need to stand and play more, for the stability.
Btw, I note from freezing some vids that Martin Frost seems to use single lip, and I'd assume, given his bodily movements, that stability would be one reason why.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-24 03:07
I've always heard comparisons between the two embouchures presented in a way that put single lip on the defensive.
What I mean by that is that people make the case that it's not mandatory to play double lip.
I've never heard, "I'm a double lip player and have always felt that if I switched to single lip I could do, this that or the other thing' on clarinet." I've heard the opposite.
Albeit, maybe marching band is easier single lip. But for most on the board, that's not where our focus lies. I love what I hear/feel when my upper palate is expanded natural when covering both upper and lower sets of teeth with my lips.
So if your able to play on an embouchure that nobody says is inferior, and many make the case is better, stay with it.
---Single lip player lacking the commitment (not desire) to play double lip.
BTW:
In all my reading of posts here I've never come across one making the case for superiority in single lip play. I've only heard of those making the case for its equality with double lip.
Can anyone point out posts I've missed that suggest single lip superiority?
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Author: nisharae18
Date: 2016-03-24 04:28
I'm new to the whole double lip embouchure way of playing, have tried it and always found that my top lip cannot stay covering my teeth - it always slides out from under my teeth, is my lip too small or my teeth too big? Or am I just doing something wrong? Really curious about this as any improvement in tone/ articulation I can get I will take...
Off to search more youtube videos on the correct way of doing this!
Thanks!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-24 13:50
As for the "sliding thing," could it be that using a bit more upper lip is possible? Or perhaps you just need to engage the upper lip muscles more (it is not a matter of just placing the lip over the teeth, you actively keep it there).
Double lip allows for so much more subtlety of play. There is no reason in the world to want to switch from double lip to single lip if you can and do play double lip.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-24 16:06
nisharae18 wrote:
> I'm new to the whole double lip embouchure way of playing, have
> tried it and always found that my top lip cannot stay covering
> my teeth - it always slides out from under my teeth,
If you don't have any trouble actually drawing your lip over - if it's just sliding on the slick mouthpiece beak - you could try a rubber mouthpiece patch. It would give you a little more traction. I use one on my mouthpiece. I just like the the slightly softer surface. But it might help with your problem.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-24 17:25
>> Double lip allows for so much more subtlety of play.>>
Speak for yourself.
I myself would have no subtlety of play if I were forced to play double lip, because I cannot adequately stretch my top lip over my teeth.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are those for whom double lip is the more natural address.
In between, there are doubtless those for whom DL is slightly uncomfortable; and also those for whom DL is uncomfortable to the extent that it isn't worth the trouble.
In order to say anything sensible about this subject, you have to think a little bit about what an embouchure DOES. I attempted to do this here:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2002/04/000770.txt
I also made a post in 'Keepers' in which I explained Carmine Campione's article about embouchure:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=744&t=744
In this article Campione offered his explanation of why he had found that students who COULD play double lip seemed to make faster progress. That didn't stop him from continuing to tailor his attitude to the individual student.
Let's have a bit less of the 'Holy Grail' attitude to this subject. Nothing could be more counterproductive to quite a large proportion of players – including myself – than to believe the blanket statement of yours that I quoted above.
Tony
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-24 18:55
Through the years, I've met a few players who, after losing all or most of their teeth, said they had found by trial and error that they were able to return to playing the clarinet only after a long process of switching to double lip. Perhaps a dentist familiar with the dental problems of clarinetists could elaborate on why this might be so and whether suitable alterations in the dental plate work might just as well have accomodated a single lip embouchure.
Post Edited (2016-03-24 18:56)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2016-03-24 20:53
Once again, Tony Pay is the voice of reason on this controversial subject.
I think people should re-read this and all of his previous posts about embouchure in general and single-lip vs. double-lip in particular.
One does what enables one to get the best technical / musical results. I'm a DL player but definitely not part of the herd that advocates its use for everyone. I'm also perfectly comfortable in noting that some of today's greatest musicians who happen to play the clarinet -- which includes Mr. Pay -- are adherents of the SL approach (as if that matters).
I love the clarinet when it's well played and when the musician is actually able to use his or her instrument artistically to make real music. SL players can do it and DL players can do it, as can card-carrying members of both camps (the so-called "switchers"). Let's face it, in this business there are no absolutes.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2016-03-24 20:53)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-24 21:16
Among top pros today, double lip (my personal preference only because it's right for me) players are in a minority. It would be nice to know just who does use double lip, because there's no reliable way to tell just by listening. Scott Andrews in St. Louis plays double lip for sure, and probably John Yeh in Chicago, but who else?
On YouTube, Andrews tells why he plays double-lip:
See Sheldon Online Music Academy Scott Andrews clarinet--sound production.
Post Edited (2016-03-24 21:25)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-03-24 21:41
This is a subject that can't be won, solved, or even the mystery compared. Famous players with amazing sounds used both single and double lip.
However. I strongly feel to develop a good embouchure you need to understand the positions of the lips, jaw, pressure, location of the lip placement to the mouthpiece and the inside oral cavity of your mouth. So in my opinion practicing long tones with a double lip surely cannot hurt, but add security and muscle formation to your embouchure. I'd even risk saying that after a year of doing long tones while warming up, 10 to 15 minutes, starting with low E at ppp <FFF>PPP, take about 15 to 20 seconds. per note. Your sound will be much better, and the upper register will feel much more comfortable. Part of this reason is simply muscle control and the exact position of your mouth on your mouthpiece. Double lip players tend to use a shade more mouthpiece, almost to the point of when the reeds squeak. The reasons are many, but the main reason in my opinion is playing with a double lip and using more of the mouthpiece in you mouth will let more of the reed vibrate freely.
Now if you already have a really great sound, I wouldn't mess with double lip exercises. Some players simply can't play with a double lip due to their bite. This can actually screw up your sound.
With single lip playing sometimes you can hear players leaking air out of the sides of their mouths. Well to be blunt, they need help.
If you are a young player just starting out try playing double lip as much as possible. It's pretty hard, maybe impossible to completely switch after or even during your college years.
A conversation that I have read much about is what is going on inside of your mouth when playing. Just the placement of your tongue will change your sound. The E and O throat opening is probably more important than the double and single lip playing. Google Lee Morgan, he gives a nice lesson on this. He is a top player that went to Interlochen Arts Academy and the Cleveland Institute. Studied with Fred Ormand and Bob Marcellus. A VERY nice guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wD_ABnsxx8
There are several lessons by him.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-24 23:27
I reference some great players of the past. One of the most admired players for his light and sensitive approach was Harold Wright. I already forgot who the pedagog was, but he stated that he would want to sound like a combination of Harold Wright and Robert Marcellus. This is a bit tongue in cheek in that these are opposite styles of SOUND (I don't want to confuse the issue with musicianship).
John Yeh uses double lip; and though Clark Brody was a single lip player who once stated in master class that he wished he had started on double lip.
To my ear it is a pretty unique sound, very light and flexible. I don't mean to imply that single lip players cannot be subtle musically, only that the SOUND can go furthest down this road with double lip technique.
I am a single lip player so I too wish that I could speak for myself in that way.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2016-03-24 23:32
Although it took some time, I successfully implemented some elements of double lip playing to the single. It's more a kind of feel, and approach to sound making than a certain technique, at least I think. Practising with double lip certainly helped me a lot to refine my sound. I grateful for Tom Ridenour's excellent books and videos for that.
Mark
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-03-25 00:16
Use what works for you. Don't use what doesn't.
For me, double lip was a colossal waste of time. After a couple of years of unnecessary pain (in High School), I switched back to single lip, no longer drinking the cool aid that there was anything especially better about either.
My favorite sounds have almost entirely been produced by single lip players. But double lip players have done some great things too. Who cares.
Use what works, don't buy into ideology.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Clarence Beale
Date: 2016-03-25 02:06
Paul Aviles wrote:
"I already forgot who the pedagog was, but he stated that he would want to sound like a combination of Harold Wright and Robert Marcellus. This is a bit tongue in cheek in that these are opposite styles of SOUND"
It was Larry Guy who said:
"I remember that when I was a young player I always said that I wanted to sound like a cross between - and forgive my hubris - but a cross between Marcellus and Harold Wright. I wanted the richness and the warmth and the bigness of Marcellus' sound and I wanted the flexibility of Harold Wright's sound."
You can find the statement in a YouTube video called "Larry Guy-Fundamentals of Clarinet Performance" at 30:37.
Clarence Beale
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-03-25 05:17
I've used double lip since my freshman year in high school. My lips were so strong, that keeping the instrument stable while marching and playing double lip was no problem at all. Before I switched to single lip is have teeth marks on my mouthpiece I bit so hard...
Fernando
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-25 06:35
Seabreeze wondered who plays double lip, and while maybe that doesn't affect anything, it is an interesting question. I just went through some of my clarinet "favorite" YouTube videos to see if I could tell. Really, I could not: only in a couple were the camera shots adequate to even think I could really tell. But anyway, it was great to listen again to these!
Here's the list following, and I'm pretty sure of the first two (but even there maybe I'm wrong) and I'm pretty much guessing on all the others.
If anyone cares to agree or disagree or add, please do.
Frost, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_JkhFuzEoo
single
Viduvier, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHzA3ArHar0
single
Bilk, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGX1j5aapIE
single?
Drucker, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR9oxnm66bY
double?
Spring, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Z1y7E7_04
single?
Rericha, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpXciB6gdYc
double?
Leister, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1cb6T2w368
double?
Gorokholinsky, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoInFr4b8kQ
single?
Peplowski, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MUwb3eNZzE
double?
Cavallin, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czfT9CTZdr4
double?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-25 07:05
You can put Leister down as a single. He also made some lamentation about not being able to use a double lip. He not only uses some material between lower lip and teeth, he also glues a leather patch to the top of his mouthpiece.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-03-25 07:53
Paul Aviles wrote: ''...He not only uses some material between lower lip and teeth, he also glues a leather patch to the top of his mouthpiece.''
Do you know what it is he uses between his lower lip and teeth?
I suspect Mr Leister already knows of those rubberised patches one can attach to the top of the M/P.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-25 19:32
Philip,
I'm not sure that anyone in your list plays double lip. I am sure that Scott Andrews (who studied with Harold Wright) does and pretty sure Yeh does. Historically, of course, Louis Cahauzac, Gaston Hamelin, Ralph McLane, and Harold Wright were luminaries who did play that way. You can't really tell by looking or listening. One player today who manages the light and lucid style so many admire in Harold Wright is Patrick Morgan of the U.S. Marine Band (though unlike Wright he seems to hardly ever use vibrato). I'd like to know if he uses double lip, but either way, he sounds great.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-25 20:35
<seabreeze>: "You can't really tell by looking or listening. "
Agreed. It does seem easier to see single lip in the videos than double. In particular, the Viduvier vid has a close-up side view at the beginning where he takes a breath with parted lips, and then applies his embouchure to the mouthpiece. I guessed on the possible doubles from the players' upper lips seeming to appear "inside" more.
So the exercise delivered more fun than information. Some day I may post a video of Phil Caron playing, and I know he uses double lip. :-)
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-03-28 20:21
I have a question that's been nagging me for a while now. If double lip is in most ways considered better sounding in almost every aspect, why is it so uncommon among professionals and such? It's not like it's a new concept, and many of the old greats seemed to have played and advocated it. I'm just not understanding why it's not taught/used more commonly.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-03-28 21:05
"If double lip is in most ways considered better sounding in almost every aspect..."
It isn't. It's only better if YOU sound better playing it, which is simply not the case for many players.
"...many of the old greats seemed to have played and advocated it..."
But then again, many of the old greats played single lip--perhaps a majority. And once upon a time, it was common for teachers to "cure" their students of double lip embouchure (which was probably sometimes helpful and sometimes harmful, depending on the student.)
"I'm just not understanding why it's not taught/used more commonly."
It IS taught, quite commonly, by those who use it. If you consider it rarely taught, perhaps that's an indication of how many players really find it better.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2016-03-28 21:06)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-03-28 22:20
The English cannot play double lip, because they are born with a Stiff Upper Lip. I'm sure Mr. Pay will concur 
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-28 22:53
On this topic, far too much gravity and seriousness has prevailed. We all need to laugh more at our fobiles and hobby-horses. First, consider the old adage, "one size does not fit all." I play double lip and do not regard it a nostrum or a sign of superiority. There is absolutely nothing I can do because I play double lip that some single lip player cannot do just as well or better. Except for one thing--I cannot indent the top of a rubber mouthpiece with my teeth because I would have to cut through my upper lip to do so. The pain would be a deter me.
My observation is that today, at least, players who use double lip avoid trying to make converts or shove the technique down anybody's throat. Consider what Scott Andrews says in his video on the subject; pretty gentle and unimposing. Nor have I ever heard Yeh characterized as a zealot on the subject. Seems to me that the most wildly enthusiastic players promising wonders from double lip don't actually play that way.
Go figure. I think I play double lip because of my French ancestry and my genetic inheritance of a long, non-stiff upper lip. I can pull mine way back over the upper teeth and feel no discomfort. So what? I can't wiggle my ears or roll my tongue, but would I play clarinet any better if I could?
Post Edited (2016-03-29 03:03)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-28 23:45
seabreeze wrote:
> So what? I can't wiggle my ears or roll my tongue,
> but would I play clarinet any better if I could?
>
I guess you'll never know.
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2016-03-29 21:10
Whoa-
Thanks for all of your responses. I wasn't try to start a battle between the two schools- I was just worried about slipping into a fringe way of playing. The argument that was made multiple times was the one I was worried about. Of course, popularity does not necessarily reflect the best way but anyone taking a path that is so rarely traveled should give thought to why it's so rarely used.
I've been playing double lip quite extensively the last little while and I am still a little insecure about stability but what it has done to my sound, intonation, flexibility and articulation is astounding. I might get a nice neck strap or something- I am definitely gonna continue. I'm not saying that it's for everyone, but it seems to be for me.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-29 22:26
That's the answer: "It seems to work for me." That's the Alpha and Omega of it, the Beginning and the End. We all wind up having to do what works for us.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-03-29 23:24
Jason, I have been DL for at least 50 years. The purists won't agree but for some years now, owing to age and slight arthritus in pinkies, I have rested the clarinet bell on my knee to ease the tension in my hands and for added stability. It really does help for me.
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