 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-14 11:49
So I have a couple of things that I use to adjust my reeds. I have the reedgeek, ATG System, Fred Ormand's book, and Peter Hadcock's book. I also got tips from Hawkins and Dave Sapadin.
I'm not a master of reed adjustments, so I'm wondering if I should also buy the reed wizard. I feel like perhaps it's not necessary, yet I feel like if I just use the reed wizard first, the ATG system second, and then fine tune everything with my reedgeek using Ormand's and Hadcock's books (combined with Hawkins and Sapadin's tips) I could seriously get some great reeds.
Another quick thing about Peter Hadcock's book (I'm talking about the back pages of the Working Clarinetist book) do I really need all that information? Or should I just balance it and be done with it. Also, what do you guys think of Ben Armato's reed guide?
How do you guys test the tips of reeds? I feel like using the finger and light test isn't very... accurate. I've asked Hawkins about this and he pretty much agreed. He said if a tip is too light when you hold out pinch E you can hear the sound sort of wave around, but if it's the right strength then it'll hold it out beautifully. He said if it's too light then clip it and if it gets heavy just sand it a little, but if it's just a wee bit heavy then to get 600 grit sandpaper and run it across the top of the tip. Any other tips?
In summary:
1.What do you guys think of Armato's book?
2.You guys think it's necessary to buy the Reed Wizard?
3. Should I sort of just brush aside Hadcock's guide?
4. Any tips to test if the reed tip is too light, too heavy, a little too heavy, a little too light, or just right?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-03-14 13:05
Are you referring to the actual tip? I like the calipers. $15 or less at Harbor Freight Tools. $10 sometimes when they are on sale. You can also use a micrometer. To be honest, often I cannot feel the thickness of the tip. Micrometers are about the same prices. Lets face it, we are trying to feel something that's 0.0005" A half of a thousandth of an inch. That's how good reed machines are from Vandoren, Rico, and Steuer. So I need measuring tools. If you have trouble finding these tools let me know. I can send you the monthly news letter from Harbor Freight.
You can spend $300 and up for top of the line calipers, but in this situation, I don't think it's needed.
https://shop.harborfreight.com/customer/account/login/
Fred Ormand's book is excellent. I studied with him way back at Interlochen Arts Academy, before he joined the Chicago Sym. We've been friends for a long time. 1972. He put a lot of incredible wealth information in that book.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2016-03-14 13:16
I balance all my reeds with ATG only. But I have not really gone into depth with altissimo balancing, and adjusting the very tip for best altissimo performance.
I am not sure how a micrometer would be used to improve reed performance. My understanding is that it is not only the dimensions that are imbalanced, but the material of the reed in conjunction with the dimensions.
Even if a reed seems to have the right thickness at the tip, it could still need work to PLAY the way you want it?
Or could you actually measure the tip with a micrometer and adjust without playtesting, and get a great reed?
In that case I'd like to buy a micrometer ASAP!
Regards
Peter
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-03-14 15:37
Balancing reeds depends on touch, which you learn by ruining bunches of bad reeds while you find out what works. No amount of book learning or equipment will get you there.
I use a reed knife and a piece of thoroughly worn 600 grit sandpaper, which I wrap around my fingertip.
Pick up the reed by the butt with the vamp facing you and hold it up, tip down, to a bright light, such as a window. A shaded lamp is ideal, since you can position the reed to keep the glare out of your eyes.
You'll see that the tip shades from yellow to white. The white area should be only at the very tip and shouldn't increase toward the corners. Use the side of a soft pencil to mark the areas that are darker yellow on one side than the other and then scrape off the marking.
If the reed is unresponsive, scrape on either side of the center line and at the spot where the heart ends, about 3/16" above the tip.
Also, polish the bottom of the reed on 400 or 600 grit sandpaper over glass until it's mirror-bright. Avoid the tip until the very end of the process (i.e., keep your fingers only on the bark) and then work it over a sheet of newsprint.
Be careful working on the edges, which must form a continuous slope from the heel to the tip.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-14 18:57
Agomongo wrote:
> I'm not a master of reed adjustments, so I'm wondering if I
> should also buy the reed wizard.
The Reed Wizard does very little to the reeds. I'm sure that its engineering and construction justify its price, but the end result doesn't. Not enough improvement in a reed's playability. It can make a difference, but not consistently enough.
> How do you guys test the tips of reeds? I feel like using the
> finger and light test isn't very... accurate.
I'm not sure how "accurate" it needs to be. At best, testing wether against your fingertip or with light pressure from your thumbnail are guides to help find the hard spots in a reed that isn't balanced. A micrometer can do the same thing, although I've found that it's hard to be sure you're measuring the same spot each time you check. I guess the key is that anywhere you measure along the *very edge* of the reed is designed to be a uniform thickness. If the thickness isn't uniform, that's where cane needs to be gently, carefully removed.
Reed adjustment is a personal process because we all have our own goal types of reed response. Learning reed adjustment requires an idea of what you want at the end and plenty of reeds to sacrifice. Even with some skill at it, it's easy to make mistakes. ATG is meant to eliminate all of that by letting the sanding surface find and even out the high (unbalanced) spots for you, but I find that, while good for fixing certain problems, it too easily thins the reed tips too much - every pass you make with the sanding block passes over the tip area.
Read everything you can get your hands on, including (but not limited to) the ones you've mentioned. Eventually, you'll settle on a synthesis of everyone else's approaches that's comfortable for you. But the process will never be foolproof.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-14 21:22
I may have missed the boat by failing to apply "attention to detail," but there is more to the strength of the tip than the actual measurement. You have the strength of the individual fibers running up to it as well as the cut of the vamp (heart) beyond that. So as a "non-detail" person, I just play the reed until broken in, and then if it is not great, it becomes a higher number (like 9 or 10) out of the box of ten and the 1-6 slot just have better playing characteristics.
I have not done anything beyond breaking-in reeds in well over ten years. And in that time I only had one season where I thought I was losing my mind. At least with Vandorens, they are made well enough in my opinion that they play well, or you just move on to the next reed (I use 60-80% of any given box of 10).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-15 00:14
Lots of great information here!
So I guess I'll try out the feeling test and light test. I'll also see about the calipers; I feel like experimenting with them would be worth a shot, so I'll think on it for a couple of days.
Also, I agree with the ATG System it does wonders getting a reed to play, but because it would sand so much the tip would thin out way too much. On top of that the reed would have a weaker heart which would cause my tone to unfocus at MF and F.
I guess I'll pass on the reed wizard if that's the case.
I have tried not adjusting my reeds, but for some reason it just doesn't work for me. I never get what I want if I don't adjust.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-17 04:54
Interesting. I'm a little leery of using rush on the reed while it's mounted on the mouthpiece. The biggest reason is that the reed isn't well supported beyond the area where it contacts each rail, so I'm not sure you wouldn't, unless you were very careful, end up taking too much out of the rail areas and still have the inner parts of areas marked L and R in her diagram too heavy.
The other important idea that she seems to leave unsaid, although she may have been just trying to economize on space in her description, is that the cane needs to taper smoothly both toward the edges and from the tip area toward the back end of the vamp. If you work on the reed while on the mouthpiece, it's hard to tell whether the reed is heavy nearer the tip or farther back on the heavier side. You can make a guess based on play-testing as she describes, but you can't really tell for sure without physically flexing the two areas - L and R - with gentle pressure (with either a thumbnail or a finger surface). This is also a weakness, IMO, with ATG. You can tell easily enough which side is heavier, but it is (again IMO) important to know if the tip itself is unbalanced or the taper is unbalanced L to R or too sudden on one side on one side. Thinning the tip too much when that's not where the problem is will destroy an otherwise potentially good reed.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-17 05:48
I'm not a fan of the Reed Wizard.
I mean I would be if the same thickness of can reed equated with strength either between reeds, or even within one (i.e. intra-) reed, but it doesn't.
Cane varies, even within the single reed itself, even for the same thickness. Taking measurements of reed thickness is at best only a surrogate for its strength.
I don't know if you are aware, but every cane reed of a make and model (e.g. Vandoren V21) is cut identically across all strengths to (at least for Vandoren) tolerances less than the thickness of a human hair. Strength is a product of what mother nature gave that particular section of cane. The manufacturer merely checks the cut reed for how much it deflects against known pressure (or how much pressure it takes to deflect the reed a known distance) to figure out what strength it is.
Poster: please don't take this snipe as directed at you. But sometimes I feel the need to ask these basic questions of players: if the reed wizard was so great, wouldn't everyone, or even most, or even an extremely large number of players be using one and raving about it?
Reed strength, I think is best derived from playing the thing, and tipping the reed from side to side, consistent with the ATG system. Notions of visually examining the reed, holding it up to the light, etc.: I suppose that would be fine for synthetic reeds, where quality control can result in thickness equating
better with strength.
The proof is in the play. IMHO, a visually impaired person should be still able to adjust reeds reasonably well. In fact, Tom Ridenour, ATG's designer, does just that (adjust a reed without use of his eyes) in a Youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MBpL-h2dfk
4. Any tips to test if the reed tip is too light, too heavy, a little too heavy, a little too light, or just right?
Play the sucker with your normal embouchure. How does it feel to you? If it's a bit to light, move the reed up on the mouthpiece a micron and vice versa. If the reed feels a bit harder on the right, move it a micron to the left before further ATGing. I reed may never feel perfectly symmetrical, and you can ATG it into oblivion trying (in vain) to make it perfect in strength or symmetry if you use such techniques (as good as I think they are) too much.
I say ATG first, adjustment on the mouthpiece second.
Whose mouthpiece, reeds and strength are you playing?
Post Edited (2016-03-17 06:13)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-03-17 06:12
Karl, I agree with your point about making adjustments with the reed on the mouthpiece. I should have pointed out that when I do these adjustments, I take the reed off.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-17 06:53
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> if the reed wizard was so great, wouldn't everyone, or
> even most, or even an extremely large number of players be
> using one and raving about it?
>
Well, it does have the shortcoming of cost, which would put off most players whose skills are effective with less expensive means. The thing is, though, by reading Ben Armato's instructions or talking with him while he was alive, you'd find that the Wizard can be somewhat flexible in the way it cuts into the reed vamp. It primarily scrapes along roughly the same area(s) as the ATG block (used, again according to the inventor's instructions) and Michele Gingras's technique with rush - in the areas she labels R and L. The Wizard cuts along a much narrower path (it's a flat blade against a curved surface) unless the vamp is quite flat. But it can be made to cut that vamp area thinner or less thin, depending on where along the length of the reed table you hold the reed. So there is an ability to react to the actual stiffness of the reed - not a one-size-fits-all theory of reed shape or reed reshaping technique. But, I've already said that I find it more costly than its usefulness warrants.
> Reed strength, I think is best derived from playing the thing,
> and tipping the reed from side to side, consistent with the ATG
> system. Notions of visually examining the reed, holding it up
> to the light, etc.:
I have to simply (however respectfully) disagree. Overall reed stiffness is a built-in characteristic of the individual reed, but imbalance (out of the box) happens *because* the cane is not of uniform stiffness. Balancing is a process of thinning the stiffer areas to make them less resistant, to match the resistance level of other more vibrant areas of the reed. But the stiffness is not necessarily uniform in any direction - neither from the center toward the rails nor from the tip toward the end of the vamp. If a part of the taper isn't vibrant because of a variation in the cane's density (or hardness or whatever you want to call it), it's that part of the taper that has to be evened out. If, to smooth out an area of resistance that begins a quarter or even half of an inch down the vamp from the tip, you continually scrape wood from the tip, you'll end up with a collapsed tip. And maybe still not have corrected the "bump" in hardness that was causing the problem in the first place, a quarter inch back.
> I suppose that would be fine for synthetic
> reeds, where quality control can result in thickness equating
> better with strength.
>
But it isn't really, because the material is much less workable. But that's another whole discussion.
> The proof is in the play. IMHO, a visually impaired person
> should be still able to adjust reeds reasonably well.
>
And so a visually impaired person could still develop a sensitivity to the *feel* of the reed vamp as it tapers in two directions. Also, it is certainly possible to develop the skill of recognizing where the problem is by the reed's feel in a play test, but it isn't (IMO, I suppose notwithstanding Tom Ridenour's analysis of the problem) as simple as thinning the entire side that's heavier/stiffer. The ATG approach can make unplayable reeds playable and *some* marginal or even good reeds *better* but my ongoing experience with it convinces me that it can too easily miss the real problem with a specific reed.
> 4. Any tips to test if the reed tip is too light, too heavy, a
> little too heavy, a little too light, or just right?
>
> Play the sucker with your normal embouchure. How does it feel
> to you? [snip] I reed may never feel perfectly symmetrical,
> and you can ATG it into oblivion trying (in vain) to make it
> perfect in strength or symmetry if you use such techniques (as
> good as I think they are) too much.
And that's for the reason I've given - you can destroy the tip before you ever solve the real problem farther down. But with a more targeted approach you*can* make it feel "perfect" in symmetry (balance) and then adjust your playing to the strength.
I personally use rush, a knife, ATG and occasionally Reed Wizard and even a rasp (for the back of the reed), depending on what seems wrong with the reed. I think any method can be made to work if you develop the needed skill for each tool. And in the end a lot depends on what you expect and need it to do when you've finished.
Karl
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-17 07:55
@clarinetguy I'll check out the paper. I'm sure it has great information with it.
@kdk I've always been adjusting my reeds on my clarinet mouthpiece. I can totally see why that's a concern though. It could increase the chance of something going wrong. However, so far I haven't had a problem with doing on the mouthpiece. The only reason why I would take the reed off is to flatten the back, tip work, clip the tip, and to sand the tip. Other than I do the rail adjustments on the MP.
You do give a convincing argument to feel and visually look at the reed, so I will experiment with that method.
@Dave Don't worry no snipes taken, haha. Actually I've been getting some responses as Dave. I've asked a couple of clarinet players about the Reed Wizard. They said it was meh... and that the price tag is absolutely ludicrous! Also, much like what you and Ridenour believes Hawkins believes too. I think even maybe Gilbert is on the same boat... maybe. I'm also probably overthinking the whole tip deal.
Agreed with ATG first and then the knife (or reedgeek.) ATG seems to be great at doing the general dirty work. Then use the knife and sandpaper to fine tune the whole thing.
@kdk With what you said about the Reed Wizard I may go out and buy one, but only when the price reduces to $150. Though I feel like that won't happen for YEARS.
There should be a college major researching about reeds, because there seems to be so many different opinions about one tiny little thing.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-17 19:52
I respect your points Karl.
* I think the ATG method is more flexible than the Reed Wizard--cheaper too, (we both agree), but note your comments on how the Reed Wizard may be more flexible than some people may think it is.
* I also respect your descent (if I have you correctly) on why you think that other methods, aside from physical play of the reed (e.g. touch, pressure, sight, physical size measurement) might deserve equal or superior "billing," as you talked about in your original post here. I've just been unable to produce results using those methods: let's attribute it, for argument sake, to my lack of training and acumen on such methods.
In some ways, I see ATG as a relatively brute force method of reed adjustment, where larger sections of a reed may have material removed simply because smaller sections within the area in question proved stiff (be it in touch and/or play.)
This is not, in fairness, to say that Mr. Ridenour doesn't offer many techniques for adjusting reeds under this technique that are specific to particular points on a reed or problems with it: he does.
Perhaps that's why many of us, including the OP, me (and perhaps you) like ATGing a reed first, and then fixing more subtle problems with more focused techniques: my preference here being movement of the reed on the mouthpiece to promote strength and symmetry consistent with my needs, over the process of over-removing material.
I totally agree that the current state of the art synthetic reeds are at best only miniminally workable, particularly when exposed to abrasive material removal. Perhaps this will change someday, and if it does (my point), because high degrees of quality assurance can be brought to the production process of such synthetics, including purity of materials, and consistency of manufacturer, such thickness probably (unlike cane) correlates much more closely with playing resistance, should abrasive material removal be attempted and physical measurement be used as a guide to doing so.
OP: collegiate researching about reeds, I say tongue in cheek, would only cause us to realize how little we know about reeds, and how much we got wrong, which would lead to further research, which would cause us to (repeat)
![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-17 21:13
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
>
> This is not, in fairness, to say that Mr. Ridenour doesn't
> offer many techniques for adjusting reeds under this technique
> that are specific to particular points on a reed or problems
> with it: he does.
>
Yes, he does, which is why watching his videos and reading whatever printed instructions he includes these days with the kit (I bought mine years ago when they first became available) are important in getting the best possible results. It's endemic to working "against the grain" that you pass over the reed's tip area with each stroke, whatever its direction, and that's where I find the difficulty lies. I haven't found a way gracefully to start the abrasive block farther up the vamp when the tip is already thin enough and balanced without tipping the whole block up on an edge, which is the opposite of the way Tom recommends using the tool.
I do use the ATG as a first option when gently flexing the tip (after side-to-side play-testing) shows that the tip *is* unbalanced. But not if the tip is balanced and already flexible.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-03-18 00:09
I also am concerned that using ATG risks overthining the tip.
I tend to use reed rush and/or the Vandoren glassplate much of the time however am toying with the idea of fixing a thin piece of shim stock (say 0.006") just in front of the reed tip when using ATG system to basically lift the abrasive slightly above tip level and start the thinning process furthet up the vamp.
Anyone else tried this?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-18 16:16
I like your idea Norman, but might be inclined to implement it in "reverse" (I'll explain that.)
The shim you speak of, I'm pretty sure we can agree, seeks to protect the tip of the reed from abrasives. Frustrating though, it's necessary thinness is also its "Achilles Heel" in its lack of longevity, even if one could have many of these inexpensive devices and make it a "throw away" accessory, just like the reed (ultimately) itself.
So, I was thinking, rather than move the abrasive away from the reed with such a shield, why not try moving the reed away from the abrasive?
Although it has its drawbacks, as a woodworker, I might be inclined to try cutting a rectangular mortise (a channel in flat faced wood that doesn't touch an edge) in a piece of wood, whose footprint was about the size of a brand of reed (same width, maybe a bit longer), and whose (uniform) depth allowed most of the reed to protrude from the mortise, but not sections of the tip. Good (woodworking) routers, if not hand chisels, can be set to cut depths pretty accurately and with close measurement tolerances.
With the butt of the reed flush against 3 mortise walls, and against the grain (i.e. ATG) reed adjustment strokes, this approach might have some benefit as well as yours.
Post Edited (2016-03-18 16:17)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-03-18 20:47
David, I similarly considered say etching a shallow recess for the reed in a piece of plate glass but lack the facilities to readily do this.
I guess a diamond facing tool (if such exists) held in a router could achieve the same result.
However if one uses steel shim stock as the protection I think one would have to do a very large amount of sanding to reduce this by even 0.001" (we are talking very light pressure quick passes with ATG).
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