 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2016-03-12 06:11
Lately I been wondering about the effect of different reed profiles on intonation.
Do some profiles cause sharpness ( or the converse ) in the upper or lower registers? Can these adverse effects be cured by choosing a different style reed?
I'm sure other folks may have a similar question, so it would good to hear from knowlegable experts here.
Thanks- Jerry
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-12 14:14
You know, I hear some people on here refer to intonation as a function of reed strength or cut and I don't understand it. For me pitch can be manipulated by how much pressure (or avoidance of pressure) you put on the reed ......period.
As you squeeze the reed more, you limit the vibrating area of the reed closer to the tip. The shorter the vibrating medium (all other factors being equal), the faster the vibrations, and this brings the pitch up (faster vibrations equals higher frequency) and vice versa.
Now an individual may be influenced to do things differently because of strength or cut, but there is no direct correlation.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-12 17:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> For me pitch can be manipulated by how much pressure (or
> avoidance of pressure) you put on the reed ......period.
>
> Now an individual may be influenced to do things differently
> because of strength or cut, but there is no direct correlation.
>
I think this is the real point in most cases. The increased pressure needed on a heavier reed can, I think, drive up the pitch. A very soft reed, maybe because it forces (or allows) you to back your embouchure away from it to allow it to vibrate, can cause low pitch.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-13 01:13
The point is, if you need a heavier reed on a more closed mouthpiece, you don't need to press the reed any further. Ideally (of course I say this now that I've "found religion") you only rest the mouthpiece/reed on your lower lip, providing a nice platform with your flattened lower lip. Thus, you get the pitch you are supposed to get with whatever reed/mouthpiece combo you use.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2016-03-13 18:26
Perhaps I was not clear enough on my question. It is common knowledge that increased pressure on the reed will sharpen the pitch, but that's not what I am asking about. What I AM looking for is how does the cut or profile of a given reed type ( i.e. V-12 vs standard blue box ) affect the pitch of the different registers? Most teachers tell us to have only one embouchure through all registers. If I tend to go sharp in the high clarion, will a certain reed cut minimize this?
Jerry
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-13 20:06
I apologize for skirting the issue.
The answer is NO. The cut or profile of a reed does not in itself have a direct correlation to pitch.
YES, you should maintain the same embouchure throughout the registers. You DO increase air as you move up (in registers and scales for that matter), and you decrease the air as you move downward (in registers and scales).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2016-03-13 22:47
If the profile of the reed does not affect intonation, then what value do the different profiles provide? Most reed mfrs offer various types. I must assume my own tendencies to go sharp in the high clarion to be a mouthpiece or clarinet design problem. Or, maybe it's just me.
Jerry
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2016-03-14 14:13
Paul Aviles wrote:
> You know, I hear some people on here refer to intonation as a
> function of reed strength or cut and I don't understand it.
> For me pitch can be manipulated by how much pressure (or
> avoidance of pressure) you put on the reed ......period.
> As you squeeze the reed more, you limit the vibrating area of
> the reed closer to the tip. The shorter the vibrating medium
> (all other factors being equal), the faster the vibrations, and
> this brings the pitch up (faster vibrations equals higher
> frequency) and vice versa.
>
>
> Now an individual may be influenced to do things differently
> because of strength or cut, but there is no direct correlation.
>
>
>
>
> ...............Paul Aviles
>
Higher harmonics are flatter for soft reeds. It's even measurable. https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html#reeds
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2016-03-14 15:42
Just an idea: Could the measurements that you linked also be due to the person playing having a tighter embochure with the stiffer reed?
Regards
Peter
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-03-14 16:48
All the different reed profiles do have effect on sound and articulation, but not on pitch on itsself. Some profiles match some mouthpieces better.
Your tendency to go sharp in the high clarion is a known problem for clarinets. Besides the clarinet design the internal measurements of barrel and mouthpiece are important.
In your case a barrel with a smaller bore or with a reversed cone could be a solution.
Jeroen
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-14 17:12
faltpihl wrote:
> Just an idea: Could the measurements that you linked also be
> due to the person playing having a tighter embochure with the
> stiffer reed?
>
I'm not sure why it matters what the immediate cause of the pitch change is. If a player finds that his pitch rises more with some reeds than with others, then the connection is there, where the causal effect is direct or through the mediating influence of increased embouchure pressure.
Not a disagreement, just a further thought.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-14 21:13
But it is helpful to know which it is to address it.
Saxlite, yes, it is you. It's not uncommon at all. My guess is that you tune your clarinet to concert Bb. And you have come up with a solution that requires a bit more "force" to get you there. The problem is then when you have to deal with the altissimo, where the modicum of force you have built up in your set-up allows the altissimo to move even higher. I would further guess you have major issues with the first ledger below the staff B and the second ledger below the staff A being sharp.
I would suggest working toward a more relaxed embouchure AND better intonation using the open G. Once G lines up well, test that against a full G maj. arpeggio (up to fourth ledger above the staff G).
Usually the altissimo, the top throat notes (A and Bb) and the low A and B are the notes you use to figure out where you want your embouchure.......not the the standard tuning note.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2016-03-14 21:30
Reeds with softer/thinner vamp tends low play a bit lower. It's hard to say exact measurements, because there are quite a few elements to consider.
Mark
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2016-03-14 21:46
I wonder whether the question of reed profile vs. pitch is being dismissed too quickly. Leaving out questions of embouchure (pinching vs. relaxing) it seems to me that various reed profiles might vibrate more easily at certain frequencies than other profiles. The piece of wood is not a homogeneous monolithic entity and - to me at least- it seems that certain profiles might vibrate more or less readily at certain frequencies with concomitant variations in pitch (sharpness - flatness). The variation might only affect a small range of frequencies - perhaps causing altissimo E to drop a bit in pitch, e.g., or perhaps affect several notes. Or if the fundamental frequency did not rise or fall, perhaps a harmonic might not be an exact multiple of the fundamental since the reed is not a perfectly linear transducer.
After all, reed profile is one of the factors that make us choose one make and model of reed over another, finding it provides us a better sound and easier playing. If reed profile didn't matter, everyone using a Vandoren M30, e.g., would all be using the same reed, varying only in the stiffness we prefer.
Post Edited (2016-03-14 21:49)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-15 00:43
The profile of a reed DOES have an important relationship to how it responds on a particular facing. This is precisely why we DO use different cuts (such as a Rue Lepic over a Standard cut Vandoren).
You hit the nail on the head.
Were we get skewed is in regard to pitch. The profile/facing relationship will determine how quickly the reed will start vibrating, or how much of the reed vibrates at a specific pitch. But, the sounded pitch is created by the internals of the mouthpiece, the bore of the clarinet and whether you force the vibrating reed closer to the facing as you play or you don't.
Here is where I learned my lesson (and sadly only just recently). I am currently using a very loose embouchure with a very soft reed on a very closed mouthpiece. With this combination you have a base pitch and can adjust UPWARD only. As I experimented with different reed strengths, the ONLY change that occurred was how well (or not) the reed would respond. It became quite clear that as the reed strength got harder (and less responsive) I could overcome that a little by squeezing the reed closer to the facing, and this did also have the effect of bringing pitch up to some degree.
The "sharpening" happens when YOU force a shorter length of the reed to vibrate than would vibrate otherwise. A good analogy would be strumming a rubberband between two fingers and then stretching it, resulting in a rising pitch (because you constrain the rubberband's ability to vibrate).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2016-03-15 03:11
I'm not sure that
"The "sharpening" happens when YOU force a shorter length of the reed to vibrate than would vibrate otherwise. A good analogy would be strumming a rubberband between two fingers and then stretching it, resulting in a rising pitch (because you constrain the rubberband's ability to vibrate)."
is a relevant analogy. More to the point I think is a diving board but a reed is not a monolithic structure like a diving board. A diving board or piece of spring metal has a width, length and one height or thickness from end to end, The business end of a reed broadens or grows wider from the butt end and has a thickness profile.
The broadening from left to right is pretty much the same in all makes and models, - the reed has to fit the mouthpiece - but the thickness profile varies among makes and models. I'm not sure the thickness of the butt end has any effect on pitch variations but the varying profiles of the vamp end might.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2016-03-15 15:45
faltpihl wrote:
> Just an idea: Could the measurements that you linked also be
> due to the person playing having a tighter embochure with the
> stiffer reed?
>
No, they are impedance measurements of a clarinet with reed attached. No embouchure is involved.
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