 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-03-11 17:32
I'm returning to playing bass clarinet after many years. A great concert band has formed in my town and I'm currently borrowing a Selmer USA student horn which is like wrestling a maniac trying to play it. (My teacher popped his mouthpiece on and agreed). With that being said, I'm in the market for my own horn. After 2 zillion hours of research on the net, I have narrowed my selection down to 3 horns which are available. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Leblanc 400 (single register vent, currently being totally reconditioned) $2,200.
Buffet Crampon 1180 (single register vent) $4,000.
Yamaha YCL 621 (double vent) $6,000.
With the very limited availability of what appears to be quality horns on the market, I think I should start a new biz!
There seems to be a lot of student models which appear to have been used as weapons in Afghanistan.... and some high end professional models... leaving not much in the mid range.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!!!!
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-03-11 18:11
I went with the Kessler low C. I think it is a good value at ~$2300.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-03-11 18:21
Thanks, Mojo... I've read about them. I'm somewhat of a purist/traditionalist and would like a wooden horn. It's like reeds, for some reason I haven't made the jump to synthetic reeds. With that being said, I'm still very open to suggestions.
Oh, I'm using a Vandoren B45 mouthpiece. Again, open to other's suggestions.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-03-11 22:03
Hey tucker,
So, here's my (opinionated) two cents...
I personally don't like any of the horns on your list
The 1180, playing-wise, is essentially a student-level horn made from wood. Below the break, it is a good step up from your Selmer USA, above the break it's just as much a wrestling match to play. It is well-made and very pretty looking, however.
The Leblanc isn't any better than the Buffet in terms of playing characteristics.
The Yamaha is well-made, but has a very small sound - Thready, pale and weak. The student model 221II is a dramatically superior instrument (with the exception of tuning).
I don't like the Kessler, either. It plays very much like the Yamaha. That said, Chuck Kessler is a super-nice guy and if spending the minimum is a criterion, taking one for a test drive might be worthwhile.
If you're only in the market for a wooden horn, I highly recommend the Selmer Model 35 - easy to play, beautiful tone, wide dynamic range, well-made and tunes very well. You can usually find these for a good bit less than the $6000 the Yamaha you're looking at goes for. I've seen a couple of these go for less than $4k on a certain auction site in recent months.
Chris
Post Edited (2016-03-11 22:08)
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2016-03-11 22:26
Go Low C - you will regret it if you don't
I suggest:
Ridenour 925C Low C ($3000)
Grabner LB mouthpiece (<$300)
Search the board for discussions on these.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-03-12 00:15
Thanks, Chris!
You're not the only one who's suggested Selmer Paris horns. Does this horn have a double register vent? What is your feeling about the importance of the double vs. single register vents?
Are you finding these on ebay or another auction/board that I'm not aware of?
Thanks again for your input!!!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-03-12 00:43
Tucker,
I'm in total agreement with Chris. See my post on this recent thread by a HS sophomore who would like to get her own bass.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=437003&t=437003
Also, contact Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds in Okemos, MI. Here is his website. I think he may have an older Selmer basses to sell very soon. Mention my name (I have no business relationship with Eric but he is an honest guy and an excellent tech).
http://www.meridianwinds.com/
There are also several old Selmer bass clarinets from one seller on the auction site that look pretty rough; my guess is school instruments. They seem to be a tad high and in need of some extensive work. However, they could also be "diamonds in the rough" if you can buy them for the right price.
Personally, I have basses just to low Eb and in the past two years of demanding concert band work have only had to take just an handful of notes up an octave. Getting a low C bass just seems like an unneeded expense and a lot more linkages to act up.
HRL
PS I play the Garrett MO MP with a refaced MP from Dave Spiegelthal as a backup.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-03-12 01:30
Hey tucker,
The Selmer 35 does indeed have a double vent. Double vent horns are superior to single vent, no question (assuming they are well-designed in other respects).
Hank makes a solid argument regarding Low C basses. Unless you're a soloist (or chamber musician) who plays a lot of contemporary works or you're an orchestral professional, a Low C bass isn't really necessarily a must-have. And extended range horns definitely have more issues reliability-wise. Low C basses do have better resale value, however.
The instruments I mentioned were from the E to the b to the a-y
Contacting reputable repair shops/retailers and putting bugs in their ears about what you're looking for is a great way to get a nice horn (that's well set-up) for a reasonable price. Definitely take Hank's advice and contact Mr. Satterlee.
Chris
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-03-12 01:38
Thanks, Chris!
Can you click on my profile and find my direct email address? If you have time I have a few more questions/comments that don't need to be public on here. Thanks!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-03-12 09:31
>> Double vent horns are superior to single vent, no question <<
Usually yes but not always. The worst responding bass clarinet I've tried had a double register mech. It's a matter of the specific model and the terrible double vent models are not that common, but still to consider this is not 100%.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-03-12 13:27
The double register mechanism is used to make the high clarion less sharp. The utility of that should be limited.
It is easy to test. Just turn the lower joint clockwise so the bridge to the upper joint doesn't work.
If double reg basses are the best, it is not due to the double reg mechanism but to the fact that the best basses usually have the mechanism.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-03-13 01:25
clarnibass, you are quite right. I should've point a finer point on my assertion.
A well designed single register instrument will be superior to a poorly designed double register instrument. But a well designed double register horn will always be superior. This has been my experience, at least. The only single register instrument that I've found to be even remotely competitive to a double register is the Yamaha YCL-221II. But it still lacks in comparison.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-03-13 10:13
>> The double register mechanism is used to make the high clarion less sharp. The utility of that should be limited. <<
Yes but not only that. The double register mech also helps with response of some notes.
>> It is easy to test. Just turn the lower joint clockwise so the bridge to the upper joint doesn't work. <<
If I understand, you mean disengage the double mechanism? That will use the upper register key for the entire clarion register. This is not a good comparison because the location is very different from where a single vent model has its register key.
Each of those vents works worse for the "wrong" end than the vent on a single register key model, because it is a compromise for all notes. Each of the double vents is improved for its "area" in expense for the "wrong area".
>> If double reg basses are the best, it is not due to the double reg mechanism but to the fact that the best basses usually have the mechanism. <<
That's partly true.
As has been mentioned maybe hundreds of times before, in theory each note would have a specific position and size of a register vent. With anything but that there's a compromise. That compromise can vary from almost no difference at all to doesn't play at all. More vents allow mote notes to have a register hole closer to the size and position that is best i.e. less of a compromise. So the double vents also improve response.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2016-03-13 12:02
If all you need to do is play in a concert band, you could also just get the Selmer USA horn fixed up by a good tech who knows what they are doing. If it's one of the one-piece-bodied instruments, those horns, while not as good as the best ones mentioned in this thread, are solid and dependable performers. I've owned one (an old one-piece Bundy) for over 10 years now and would not hesitate to show up to a concert band or wind ensemble audition, rehearsal or performance on it.
When I'm playing difficult solo pieces with lots of upper register work and wide leaps between registers, I definitely miss the Selmer Paris Low C instrument that I borrowed from my school throughout my college years, but for concert band parts, I would be fine on the Bundy.
If yours isn't working, then it needs to go to a tech. If your tech can't make it play for you or your teacher, then you need to find a new tech.
Of course, if you have the budget and the inclination to go for a better instrument, that's completely understandable, but that Selmer USA horn may not be the lost cause that you are thinking it is.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-03-13 13:31
clarnibass,
"The double register mech also helps with response of some notes."
OK, sounds reasonable. Are the stuffy notes the same the mechanism helps to bring in tune, i.e. the high clarion?
"This is not a good comparison because the location is very different from where a single vent model has its register key."
Correct. You can still do the test to see the differences. The 2nd register vent can be forced by removing the spring on the link.
"As has been mentioned maybe hundreds of times before, in theory each note would have a specific position and size of a register vent."
Yes, that's trivial and why the mechanism "makes the high clarion less sharp".
The question I raise is if a single-vent bass where the high clarion has been sacrificed is really much worse for normal BC use/repertoire (=chalumeau and low clarion) than a double-vent bass.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-03-28 01:03
I want to thank you all for your suggestions, input, and interest in my quest for a bass clarinet.
After a LOT of research and talking to folks from the returning player like myself to professionals.... I decided on a Ridenour 925c. Thanks to Hank Lehrer for introducing me to Ridenour products, I overly researched student models of various brands, reconditioned models, up to used professional models.
For my needs (local civic band), I felt it was a shot in the dark in buying a reconditioned horn off the internet. If I purchased a new or used student model, I'd be back in the same place I am now (a borrowed student Selmer USA) wrestling the horn rather than enjoying playing it.
I learned of Tom Ridenour's reputation and read many reviews on his clarinets and felt buying a new horn, with many features found on professional models, for same $$ as a new student model Selmer or Yamaha was my best solution.
It arrived on Friday and I couldn't be happier. I feel like I'm driving a Porche after puttering around in a Chevy Vega. Ha ha. Talk about player-friendly! I put my tuner on the bell and was amazing at how in tune the horn is "out of the box". A few notes were "muddy" but easily corrected w/ simple embouchure adjustments. I had a real challenge with the student Selmer playing over the break.... now: there's a break?
Double vent register... Ab/Eb left hand key... nice finish.. sturdy feel... new horn for less than 2 grand. I"M HAPPY!
Would definitely recommend Ridenour.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-03-28 02:27
Happy to have been of assistance, Phil. I think your assessment of what your current and near-term needs was the tipping point. Down the road, your 925e will be an excellent backup when you need to get the high-priced Low C bass. My street-sense tells me that you will be happy for quite sometime, however.
Now that you have most of your mechanical issues under control "you can become one with your bass" which I like to think of as The Zen of the Bass Clarinet. Check out this thread.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=361627&t=361605
HRL
PS: I have no business relationship with Ridenour Products.
Post Edited (2016-03-28 05:12)
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