 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-03 09:48
So I had a lesson with Neidich and learned a lot, but there are a couple of things that struck me.
1. How far down his thumb rest was on his thumb
He added an extension to his thumb rest and then had his thumb rest rest on the bone between the thumb joint and the joint that connects the finger to the hand. I did this, but it didn't work for me. I felt sooo much tension.
Where do you guys place your thumb? I usually put mine on the middle (though a little closer to my joint) been the thumb joint and the tip of my nail.
2. The clarinet being pushed upwards.
Now I've read that in Larry Guys book, however I never really took it seriously. I also never did it cause I was afraid it caused tension. How do I practice that so that it becomes a habit AND doesn't cause too much stress?
3. The amount of force used on the fingers
I was always taught to play the clarinet with absolutely NO tension. Almost like my fingers were literal feathers. Then Neidich said that I needed more force. He sort of said to me that my notes weren't clean, because my fingers are so loose.
He told me to get my two hands and open and close them. Almost pretending they were yapping away like sock puppets and the force I felt from that is how much I should feel. Which I've noticed something when bringing the fingers down use force, but when the fingers are on the keys relax. This is similar to what the Russian school of piano playing is like. When they dig into the keys they use the momentum, the arm weight, and shoulder muscles to create the sound. Then as soon as the sound comes they relax.
I asked Neidich, "isn't that using tension though?" Which he replied, "force and tension are different things." There are two muscles. Once that pulls and another one in the opposite direction. He said if you get your hand and snap it closed that's force, because only one muscle is snapping closed. Tension is when you do that same thing, but this time the when your hand reaches halfway then you stop it then that's tension. Due to the fact that now two muscles are contracting.
I've also learned that my hands and arm become tense which is a bad thing and that I'm not moving my hands from the knuckle.
How do you teach the right amount of force? How do you tell when the force is too much and how do you tell if the force is too little? Any exercises to teach to move the fingers from the knuckle?
This lesson was quite eye opening, because it taught me why I can't play fast and clean.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-03 15:13
The tension thing is controversial for me. I prefer the idea that you use as much force necessary to bring down a ring, or close, or open a key. But Russianof had this teaching moment with students (and Neidich would be one) where he would just snatch the clarinet away from a student as they played. His idea was that you should have enough grip on the horn to prevent that from happening. For Russianof it produced a "surety" of movement from note to note.
As for thumb position, I can make that controversial.
I think most agree that between the tip and joint is WHERE you put the thumb rest. Where it gets tricky is HOW you position your thumb. To avoid stress on the tendons, it is better to engage your thumb muscles, so having your thumb at a horizontal attitude at a minimum is highly recommended. Additionally, Elsa Ludwig-Verdehr would have the thumb actually angling upward (drawing a line beginning from the base of the thumb moving toward the tip.....tip pointed more toward the ceiling). This way the skeletal system takes on more of the weight from from the musculature. I have used this method ever since starting to develop problems that led to all sorts of rigging. Since this method I have played an additional 16 years with no problems (stress of any kind) at all, and no straps or thumb rest attachments.
The main idea to keep in mind with thumb rest placement is your right index finger's relationship to the bottom side key. Always make sure that the index finger is no further up at rest than directly over the last side key (ie hovering over the second to last side key is too high). If it is, you need to move the thumb rest down. If the index finger is below the last side key that is not as bad as past it the other way but it may be best to raise the thumb rest if it is too far away.
Oh, and the pushing upward thing. I've never been a fan of that idea (ya can't do that with a saxophone ......not that any right thinking person would ever play the saxophone). To my mind anything you do with embouchure (and that's what is being affected with the pushing thing) should pretty much just be the lips and a tiny tiny bit of the jaw......period.
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2016-03-03 15:23)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-03-03 16:37
>> Where do you guys place your thumb? <<
Just look at many people's fingers. You will see how much they vary.
>> I think most agree that between the tip and joint is WHERE you put the thumb rest <<
Gotta give this the thumbs down...
There is no place any person should put the thumb or thumb rest. It's specific to a each person.
I've been using the same "weird" thumb position for the last 25 years. I've tried many thumb rests and thumb positions, with various bad results, including extreme pain. I still remember my first teacher who was using pretty much the opposite thumb and thumb rest positions and wouldn't even be able to play using mine.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-03-03 18:17
I'm an amateur, but fwiw . . . we need to remember that even if we're all thumbs, they're all different thumbs. My thumb is 2-1/16" long from the inner (webbed) joint of my thumb to the tip of the thumb. The thumb rest and the hand position that work best for a tall guy with great big basketball-player paws probably won't work for me. I've only got one practical thumb position, with the thumb-rest directly above the knuckle. Fortunately, that position works for me and I've never injured my thumb, although I've had a harmless but rather prominent-looking "clarinet player's thumb bump" ever since I was in grammar school.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-03 18:48
Agomongo wrote:
> He added an extension to his thumb rest and then had his thumb
> rest rest on the bone between the thumb joint and the joint
> that connects the finger to the hand. I did this, but it didn't
> work for me. I felt sooo much tension.
To me, more interesting than where he puts the thumb rest on his thumb is whether or not he told you that YOU should hold it that way. I agree with Nitai that thumb position is highly individual, based on several of the player's physical attributes. And using a support like a neck strap or a seat support (I forget what they were called), can change the picture, taking wrist and arm strength effectively out of the equation. To me, the two things to consider are where the hand - the fingers as they cover the holes and press the keys - feels comfortable and where the finger action is most reliable. For a beginner, the conventional starting point is over the first segment of the thumb close to the first knuckle. But as the student continues to develop, the thumb position tends to evolve out of natural necessity if no one is insisting on some specific placement.
>
> 2. The clarinet being pushed upwards.
>
In my own experience, it seems that light upward pressure can help prevent the weight of the instrument from pulling downward and sliding the mouthpiece and the lips with it away from the support of the front teeth. As a double lip player, I sometimes feel (in more careless moments) that pull *out* of my mouth and a resulting sag in my lip, which I can counteract with upward thumb pressure along with more deliberate exertion inward in my lip muscles. Probably some players who recommend firmer upward thumb pressure are using it to create pressure on the reed without the dangers of applying the pressure with the jaw, with can cause reed pinching.
> 3. The amount of force used on the fingers
>
> I was always taught to play the clarinet with absolutely NO
> tension.
The problem with tension (anywhere in the system) comes about when it interferes with smooth, controlled movement. When I watch string players, I used to be a little surprised at how hard they seem to move their fingers against the strings. But the reality is that the string needs to be pressed against the fingerboard all at once - otherwise there's a short time when the string is only muffled (damped), not shortened. Similarly, the tone holes of an open-holed woodwind need to close all at once - incomplete closing even for a short instant can create the kind of vent that amounts to a leak, keeping the note from speaking until closure is complete or, at worst, causing a squeak. So Neidich seems to saying the fingers need to go down hard enough to seal the hole quickly, not floated down less firmly. Of course, taken to an extreme, you get unwanted impact noise and possibly movement in the instrument, which can interfere with legato.
> I asked Neidich, "isn't that using tension though?" Which he
> replied, "force and tension are different things." There are
> two muscles. Once that pulls and another one in the opposite
> direction.
Yes, and "tension" in its destructive sense forms when those oppositional forces are preventing smooth, controlled movement.
>
> How do you teach the right amount of force?
You don't so much *teach* it as the student *learns* it.
> How do you tell
> when the force is too much and how do you tell if the force is
> too little? Any exercises to teach to move the fingers from the
> knuckle?
>
Well, the (perhaps deceptively) simple answer is that the right amount of force produces the best result. I have to say, though, that I usually honor the adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I have to assume Neidich heard a problem in your technique that he thought should be addressed. Most of the time these are issues we think about, sometimes because we've read something or seen something that has made us think about a problem we've already noticed in our own playing. Then, we experiment. That's how a player evolves, and good players are constantly evolving technically and musically as they continue to play.
> This lesson was quite eye opening, because it taught me why I
> can't play fast and clean.
It opened your eyes to possibilities and will lead you to think differently about how you get your results as a clarinetist. Ultimately, that's what good teaching does.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-03 20:50
Where do you guys place [or instruct your students to place] their/your thumb?
(lower/right hand) At a point where it comfortably allows the pointer, middle and ring fingers to assume a naturally curved position over the holes/keys/rings each are assigned to, such that the finger pads come down on their assigned places in a manner that is much closer to perpendicular to the clarinet than parallel to it. Think "a little bit less curved than that appropriate for an oboe player."
Mr. Pinky--he's going to hit his 4 (or more dependng on clarinet) keys closer to flat anyway. As "he's" actuating keys, not landing on holes, we accept some pinky finger flattening, though "this guy's" trills have known to improve by getting the student to introduce more curve into the finger.
This is not a one way fits all proposition because we are not a one size fits all group of players.
We do this thumb positioning to affect other finger curvature for at least 2 reasons. First, finger pads that come down on assigned points are less likely to miss covering that hole, or run astray and also hit, say, a chromatic B/F# key. Second, curvature allows us to engage the use all finger joints, allowing more control. Straight[er] fingers make us rely on just the proximal (closer to the hand) finger joint. Nature gave us 3 joints so that we could pinpoint grip to just our finger pads if need be, and have the load shared by 3 joints, not to mention touch [the tip of] our pointer finger to our thumb.
There are more reasons, from comfort to clarinet stability.
Are there clarinetist that don't follow this? Only some of the finest ever known, especially when it comes to finger control:
https://youtu.be/SR9oxnm66bY?t=3m17s
Stanley didn't keep his non thumb fingers straight, but he did largely only bend them at the middle of the 3 finger joints, except for some trills. And like Mr. Neidich, he was also a Russianoff student.
Still more, if this is so important, rare than I suggest and "equipment solution," I'm going to "port" this off to products. See Messrs. Ridenour or Kooiman and their thumb rest products for more details.
2. The clarinet being pushed upwards.
Not only do I question the purpose and efficacy of this, let alone as a one size fits all approach, but if it even was universal, I'd be inclinded to solve said "issues" with a clarinet strap, not a right wrist. Assuming benefit could even be gleaned from this, it should not come at the expense of tensing the right hand to the point of compromising play, or worse, causing repetitive use injury.
3. The amount of force used on the fingers
First--we need to define terms. Force, or the process of moving something requires energy expenditure, but anyone who muscle trains might be offended to know that on that "last rep," as they give it their all to move a weight "suspended in a last rep," and expend all the energy they have to keep it motionless, someone who unappreciatively yells out "c'mon, force that weight up," would technically be correct: no movement is no force.
Force is a 4 letter work in clarinet finger speak for me. People misunderstand it, it's not one size fits all, and there are better ways of explaining this.
More examples: "wow, you forced that huge rock, sitting high up [and all but over the side of the cliff] smashing down." No you didn't. Potential energy from gravity and its teetering state did. You just pushed the rock enough to alter its center of gravity subtly.
You've just "creaked" that huge bank safe/vault door open 1/4." Your ready to collapse from exhaustion. A 4'9" (NOT to be short person insensitive) coworker says sarcastically and in disgust, still unable to get inside the vault, "maybe next time you could use more force!" They're right; obnoxious but right. Force equaling mass times acceleration: the mass is held by the doors hinges. The speed at which you opened it, let alone its acceleration--very little. The energy needed to overcome hinge friction: enormous.
Moving on. The "external" muscle movement in our bodies, visible to others is bidirectional thanks to flexor (bend) and extensor (muscles). They are constantly at work while we're awake to keep us balanced. The degree to which they work in opposition: muscle tone, or tension.
I think this might have been what Neidich was trying to convey.
Now--we have the right vocabulary.
I was always taught to play the clarinet with absolutely NO tension.
That's a good way to teach I think, even if only a concept. We don't want the flexor and extensor muscle in a finger at war with each other (i.e. tension), but with no tension comes no control. Some tension, or to restate, the operation of both types of muscles in unison, even if one is dominant at any one point in time (as comes with putting down or lifting a finger to make a note) is essential.
Your teachers, whether they realized it or not, really sought finger control, which necessitates reduction in, but by no means elimination of muscle tone/tension. The problem is that we tend to over tense, particularly as beginners.
He told me to get my two hands and open and close them. Almost pretending they were yapping away like sock puppets and the force I felt from that is how much I should feel.
I don't believe this analogy has applicability to all players, and within a single player, to all finger movements. Different capabilities are required for our fingers when running up or down a scale than when skipping a large number of notes and moving multiple fingers in unison (a better justification for "sock puppeting.") First, the analogy's limited because I'll bet your fingers weren't curved as much as clarinet play suggests when you made the motion of sock puppets talking, let alone yapping away. Second, it's misleading. You didn't maximize force there. Extensor muscle and muscle tone was full at play as you sought to synchronize all your finger movement, more the exception than the rule in clarinet play.
So what's better? Put both hands on top of a desk with all fingers curved, even Mrs. Thumb--or on your clarinet. Move the fingers perfectly to varied beats. Sometimes one at time, bidirectionally, and other times in every conceivable pattern. No beat should be faster than the speed at which accuracy is lost.
(There's another name for this by the way. It's called disciplined metronomic practice from the classic etude books of our craft).
How do you teach the right amount of force?
..By teaching the student how to correctly practice...which involves the slow, metronomic intensive repetition of notes in etude books that they can handle (so they won't tense up or uncurve their fingers to,) involving a meter no faster than the student can handle the music with fingers "awake and responsive, but relaxed," and not having them dare speed up that metronome a wink before they can easily handle that speed.
The classic clarinet irony: difficult passages, which necessitate our keeping lose to play, we get psyched out by, and tense up our fingers to. In the paragraph above lies the solution: confidence from repetitious accuracy.
(Repeat, 10000 times.)
(And by the way, THIS is Leon's (Russianoff) legacy. That stupid incredibly accurate pendulum metronome on the piano that you needed to keep in beat with.)
If getting a note to play only comes with more force, be it a forked Bb, or a pinky actuated key, see a repair person. You are applying too much force.
How do you tell when the force is too much and how do you tell if the force is too little?
There's that clarinet 4 letter word again: force.
If you are hitting keys harder than a clarinet, in a state of repair, needs, you are unnecessarily tiring out flexor muscles. You can't play as long and as unsloppy if you do this.
If your fingers are in any way clenched, you are unnecessarily having your finger flexor and extensor muslce fight out tension in your head and you will tire out. You can't play as long and as unsloppy if you do this. Imagine them 1 iota more in muscle tension than the state at which you put them when your teach says, as they grab your fingers to show you a movement, "relax your fingers, let me move them with my fingers."
If your clarinet, in a state of repair, and with fingers accurately landing, doesn't make notes that additional finger pressure would resolve, you are not apply enough force.
Do you touch type on a keyboard......that's the feel.
Any exercises to teach to move the fingers from the knuckle?
You bet--its easy too. Play!....and keep those fingers curved.
Why are you so "special" to talk of this?
I'm not. But start your music education 40 years ago on an out of repair rental sax, that you had to push the keys down on hard to get a seal, and its a recipe to learning all wrong. Relearning is hard, but very informative.
Post Edited (2016-03-03 20:51)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-03 21:33
In a youtube video Ricardo Morales recommends "squeezing" the keys rather than striking them. Hmm. Sounds like the opposite of what Neidich says, though it's hard to say.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-03-03 22:22
Attachment: Finger pad.jpg (85k)
One professor I met with recently during my college auditions, a student of Marcellus, gave me a lot of helpful information about finger motion/position. Some of it is similar to what Bonade outlines in his Clarinetist's Compendium.
He said that the hands should both be curved into outlines of "C"s, as though you were gripping a tennis ball in either hand. (He actually had a tennis ball in his desk to demonstrate.) The fingers should be essentially perpendicular to the body of the instrument, which was different from what I had been doing up to that point. The tone holes should always be sealed by the pads of the fingers (pic attached.) He didn't really talk about right thumb position, although he said the left thumb should be angled at 45°, more or less.
As for finger motion, he argued that there were two types of finger motion, one to be used in fast, technical passages where accuracy is desired, and one to be used in slow, lyrical passages for an extremely smooth legato.
For fast passages, the fingers hover a short distance from the tone holes, then pop quickly down at the 1st knuckle only with a hammering motion. The other knuckles should not move. I believe he made the analogy of drumming your fingers on a table.
For legato passages, all the knuckles move slowly up and then down with a "squeezing" motion. The goal is to avoid any "pop" when transitioning from one note to another. This technique includes the pinky keys — try playing a C in the staff and slowly squeezing the long B key down without hearing a "pop."
(An example to try this with would be the F-D F-D C—B passage right at the beginning of the Mozart concerto. See if you can play the F-D and C-B without a pop.)
He taught me this in the context of the first phrase of the Mozart concerto, 1st movement. All of the 16th note passages could be played with the fast finger motion, and anything slower could be played with the slow finger motion.
Post Edited (2016-03-03 23:10)
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Author: moma4faith
Date: 2016-03-03 22:36
Very interesting! I have my thumb rest half over my thumb nail bed and half over the skin. I have average, slightly long fingers. I teach my students depending on how long their fingers are and how they curve over the keys and tone holes. It is all relative to their hand/finger structure. I would be interested to see a photo of his thumb rest extension.
I like to stress loose, boneless fingers while playing, yet, I also talk about little mechanical hammers, working together. It is a balance for me. It is relative to the music as well.
As for the clarinet being pushed up - I know some students don't play with enough thumb support. So, "pushing up" might help them a bit. I'm not sure I'd describe it as pushing up, though.
Teachers can use varying words and examples to teach the same concepts.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-03 23:56
The thing to focus on with pressing upward under the thumb rest is that it won't be the thumb or even the hand, mostly, supplying the upward push. Any pressure upward will come mostly from the forearm, exerted by the flexors around the the top (thumb side) of the elbow. That contraction is already taking place if you hold the clarinet up with the thumb rest - the neutral position for the forearm is straight down. In fact, the elbow needs to maintain a flexed position to play the lower half of the clarinet at all.
One thing the thumb position itself can influence is the way the wrist is held I've always felt that my fingers were less mobile if I let my wrist extend so that it bends in toward my abdomen. I feel the freest with my wrist held straight (flexors and extensors in balance). For *my* hand, pushing my thumb more toward the joint where the thumb joins my hand (away from the tip) while covering the rh tome holes almost forces my wrist to bend inward. Other players' (Neidich's for example) experience may differ depending on their hand structures.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-04 02:46
For another view on the thumb position and shaping of the fingers on the keys, consider the advice to "make a letter c as you play" (and much more) that Stephen Williamson gives a talented player in Korea after he moves her thumb rest.
Look for Stephen Williamson Master Class in Seoul Clarinet Academy 004 on YouTube. He delivers his opinions on positioning the thumb, thumb rest, and fingers from 3:13 to 7:30 minutes in the video.
Post Edited (2016-03-04 03:47)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-04 15:25
A better approach is to think of using SLOW finger movement -- unless faster movement is required.
Others previously here have said, or have implied, that thinking of playing 'with relaxed fingers' is more important than thinking of playing 'with slow fingers'. But if you practise using slow finger movements, then it is immediately obvious where that doesn't work at a particular point. Then, 'fast' overrides 'slow' in a much more natural way.
That's because the fast/slow requirement is an OBJECTIVE PROPERTY OF THE OUTSIDE WORLD, independent of the player.
Of course, relaxation may RESULT from thinking of slow movement. But very often, muscular opposition may be needed in order to provide an appropriate fast finger movement, and if that opposition isn't present at the required moment, the movement won't be successful.
There is an analogy between this situation and the use of 'support' in blowing the clarinet. Clearly, the use of support ties up energy in muscular opposition; so you don't want to OVERsupport.
But the truth is that some passages require a high degree of support, whereas some are better played without much support.
The blanket instruction to 'play with fingers relaxed' corresponds to the blanket instruction, 'play without support'. Therefore, it fails in the same way.
Here, instead of trying to work out whether your fingers SHOULD be relaxed or not, you can find out where being relaxed is useful, and where it isn't.
Tony
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2016-03-04 18:18
This is a third hand story so take it with the pinch of salt that it deserves.
A friend of mine who studied with Jack Brymer told me that Brymer played with a grip of steel. So much so that when trying out another student's brand new Buffet bass clarinet he bent a couple of keys.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-05 00:28
Wow lots of information. Well I'll start thinking about relaxed fingers instead of slow fingers. Also, I was talking to someone who said that what Neidich said doesn't quite make sense. If you try to use force while trying to play fast it's not possible. Of course he doesn't want me to be too loose, but it's better to be too loose than forceful. I guess what Neidich was trying to imply is that my fingers should have certainty or "poise" when pressing down. Like what moma4faith was saying. Loose fingers with a hammer action/feel.
I think the amount of pressure I'd different for everybody. People like me who have long skinny fingers need to use a little more pressure. People with large fatter fingers don't need to because the mass of the fingers already give them that force they need. I'm seeing this as an individual basis rather than one size fits all. At the same time I feel like that's where spring tension comes into play. I probably need less spring tension, so instead having to use more force to compensate for how my body is built the spring should be compensated instead of me.
I've though about th thumb and I'm probably overthinking it. My teacher says let your hand droop down then bring it up. So the thumb should technically be in its most natural form and position.
I'll check out that Williamsons video.
Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but what's the point of pushing upwards with the two thumbs? There are plenty of clarinetist Who have never mentioned this other than Zhukovsky, Larry Guy, and Neidich. What's the point though? If anoint I feel like it would cause tension within the wrist, hand, and arms. Kdk I can see that the upward pressure does keep it more stable and less sliding around though couldn't the neck strap help stop that too?
Post Edited (2016-03-05 01:03)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-05 00:38
What you lack, understandably, is any criterion by which to judge between posts that you need to try to understand, and posts that you don't.
I'd say it's a failure of moderation, and why I stopped being a regular contributor to this list.
Tony
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-05 00:42
Tony Pay wrote:
> What you lack, understandably, is any criterion by which to
> judge between posts that you need to try to understand, and
> posts that you don't.
>
> I'd say it's a failure of moderation, and why I stopped being a
> regular contributor to this list.
>
> Tony
True but it's hard to post things when college auditions going around. I'm not asking for regular contributors. Just asking for people's opinion. I also don't want to reply to people with essays amount of information with two sentences. I try to reply with the same amount of information received.
Post Edited (2016-03-05 00:44)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-05 00:49
Agomongo wrote:
> Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but what's the
> point of pushing upwards with the two thumbs? There are plenty
> of clarinetist Who have never mentioned this other than
> Zhukovsky, Larry Guy, and Neidich. What's the point though? If
> anoint I feel like it would cause tension within the wrist,
> hand, and arms.
>
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote about this the first time. I thought you meant pushing upwards (toward the embouchure) with the right thumb under the thumb rest.
But with *two* thumbs sounds like you mean pushing outward at a right angle to the clarinet. I sometimes do that for very delicate pianissimo entrances to prevent pressure of the reed against my lower lip from closing the reed off. But not all the time, and I've never been told to do that by anyone. I certainly wouldn't myself make it a fundamental part of technique. Did you ask him to explain it in more detail?
Karl
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-05 00:56
kdk wrote:
> Agomongo wrote:
>
> > Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but what's
> the
> > point of pushing upwards with the two thumbs? There are
> plenty
> > of clarinetist Who have never mentioned this other than
> > Zhukovsky, Larry Guy, and Neidich. What's the point though?
> If
> > anoint I feel like it would cause tension within the wrist,
> > hand, and arms.
> >
>
> Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote about this the first time.
> I thought you meant pushing upwards (toward the embouchure)
> with the right thumb under the thumb rest.
>
> But with *two* thumbs sounds like you mean pushing outward at a
> right angle to the clarinet. I sometimes do that for very
> delicate pianissimo entrances to prevent pressure of the reed
> against my lower lip from closing the reed off. But not all the
> time, and I've never been told to do that by anyone. I
> certainly wouldn't myself make it a fundamental part of
> technique. Did you ask him to explain it in more detail?
>
> Karl
Oh yeah I was confusing sorry. I guess I'm confused too now, haha.
Laura Flax and Neidich both say to push up with two thumbs, however Guy says to push up with just the right thumb.
I didn't ask because I've always been taught NEVER question a teacher. Even if it's just questioning to know more "why?" Some teachers take it the wrong way and think the student is "stubborn" or thinks "this student thinks I'm wrong!" At least that's what I've been taught to think.
Reviewing one of your previous posts I'm seeing that yes like you said everything is different for everyone. Much like a persons sense of phrasing.
I had a lesson with Gilbert and he told me that many Asian students whether born in a non Asian country that our tongues are different because of the tongue genetics. He said that our tongues naturally dip in the middle so to counter that I have to imagine and feel my tongue differently. I tried extending my tongue all the way out and saying eeeee. That caused many positive things like better sound and easier to go over the break. The back of my tongue was more forward and the middle of the tongue had no dip. Though this is for a different discussion.
Post Edited (2016-03-05 01:14)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-05 03:06
"I didn't ask because I've always been taught NEVER question a teacher. Even if it's just questioning to know more "why?" Some teachers take it the wrong way and think the student is "stubborn" or thinks "this student thinks I'm wrong!" At least that's what I've been taught to think."
I could understand this if a teacher had a set presentation with no additional time to make it in. Otherwise, anyone who doesn't welcome questions is not a teacher, they're something else (not to say things can't be learned from them.) Nobody's so good at communicating that they guarantee instant understanding in whoever they're speaking to, so two-way is a essential.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2016-03-05 04:40
Quote:
Wow lots of information. Well I'll start thinking about relaxed fingers instead of slow fingers. Also, I was talking to someone who said that what Neidich said doesn't quite make sense. If you try to use force while trying to play fast it's not possible. Of course he doesn't want me to be too loose, but it's better to be too loose than forceful. I guess what Neidich was trying to imply is that my fingers should have certainty or "poise" when pressing down. Like what moma4faith was saying. Loose fingers with a hammer action/feel.
I think the amount of pressure I'd different for everybody. People like me who have long skinny fingers need to use a little more pressure. People with large fatter fingers don't need to because the mass of the fingers already give them that force they need. I'm seeing this as an individual basis rather than one size fits all. At the same time I feel like that's where spring tension comes into play. I probably need less spring tension, so instead having to use more force to compensate for how my body is built the spring should be compensated instead of me.
I've though about th thumb and I'm probably overthinking it. My teacher says let your hand droop down then bring it up. So the thumb should technically be in its most natural form and position.
I'll check out that Williamsons video.
Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but what's the point of pushing upwards with the two thumbs? There are plenty of clarinetist Who have never mentioned this other than Zhukovsky, Larry Guy, and Neidich. What's the point though? If anoint I feel like it would cause tension within the wrist, hand, and arms. Kdk I can see that the upward pressure does keep it more stable and less sliding around though couldn't the neck strap help stop that too?
Hi Agomongo,
Charlie was one of my primary teachers, so I felt as though I should comment to unpack some of the things in your posts.
Firstly, you should be tape recording your lessons. And rather than posting here for an up or down vote on what Charles Neidich or Dan Gilbert said, you should be listening back to your recordings and seeing if you hear the same things these teachers did and whether or not their comments helped you improve.
As a practical matter, there are only a few posters on the bboard who are qualified to comment on Charles Neidich's or Dan Gilbert's teaching, so when you ask for advice, the bboard responses can range from Tony's insightful and succinct post to Whiteplainsdave's rambling treatise. In other words, use this board with extreme caution.
On to clarinet things.
Charlie cuts 1 to 2 inch pieces of surgical tubing and fits them over his thumb rests. It makes the instrument feel sturdier on your right hand. Surgical tubing is super cheap at Home Depot; spend 2 bucks and try it out.
As far as pushing up the clarinet, he teaches pushing up with the right hand and out with the left hand, which creates the feeling of the instrument being anchored on your top teeth. Steve Williamson, who also studied with Neidich, says the same exact thing in the masterclass videos that Seabreeze posted. I think the point of this concept is to avoid letting the reed sit on the bottom lip as an anchor point, which can have the effect of closing off the sound.
Before studying with Neidich, my teacher was a Bonade student, and he taught me the famous legato fingers (he, however, found Bonade's distinction between finger motion on fast passages and slow passages pointless). I too played with slow and smooth fingers, similar to what Tony talks about, and Charlie never complained about what I was doing. Perhaps in your effort to play relaxed, you were getting imprecise finger movement (grace-notes between pitches) or maybe small glissandi between notes? If so, Charlie could have been responding to those issues. Again, if you recorded your lessons, go back and listen.
It's also interesting to note that Neidich was at one point a fine pianist. I play some piano too (though not as good as him), and we've talked about how the technique of the keyboard carries over to the clarinet. On the piano, expression is directly related to the finger movement (i.e. smoother finger action creates a more legato sound, percussive fingers make for a more aggressive sound, etc.). On the clarinet you can do something similar; I use, for example, rather percussive finger motion playing the A clarinet solos from Capriccio Espagnol. So it could have also been a matter of your finger movement not working for the passage you were playing for him.
Anyways, feel free to email me if you'd like some more info on Neidich's teaching. He's a brilliant clarinetist and educator, and I encourage you to seriously consider the things he talked about in your lesson (regardless of what the bboard rabblement says).
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-06 04:51
brycon wrote:
> Quote:
Wow lots of information. Well I'll start thinking about
> relaxed fingers instead of slow fingers. Also, I was talking to
> someone who said that what Neidich said doesn't quite make
> sense. If you try to use force while trying to play fast it's
> not possible. Of course he doesn't want me to be too loose, but
> it's better to be too loose than forceful. I guess what Neidich
> was trying to imply is that my fingers should have certainty or
> "poise" when pressing down. Like what moma4faith was saying.
> Loose fingers with a hammer action/feel.
>
> I think the amount of pressure I'd different for everybody.
> People like me who have long skinny fingers need to use a
> little more pressure. People with large fatter fingers don't
> need to because the mass of the fingers already give them that
> force they need. I'm seeing this as an individual basis rather
> than one size fits all. At the same time I feel like that's
> where spring tension comes into play. I probably need less
> spring tension, so instead having to use more force to
> compensate for how my body is built the spring should be
> compensated instead of me.
>
> I've though about th thumb and I'm probably overthinking it. My
> teacher says let your hand droop down then bring it up. So the
> thumb should technically be in its most natural form and
> position.
>
>
>
> I'll check out that Williamsons video.
>
> Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but what's the
> point of pushing upwards with the two thumbs? There are plenty
> of clarinetist Who have never mentioned this other than
> Zhukovsky, Larry Guy, and Neidich. What's the point though? If
> anoint I feel like it would cause tension within the wrist,
> hand, and arms. Kdk I can see that the upward pressure does
> keep it more stable and less sliding around though couldn't the
> neck strap help stop that too?
>
> Hi Agomongo,
>
> Charlie was one of my primary teachers, so I felt as though I
> should comment to unpack some of the things in your posts.
>
> Firstly, you should be tape recording your lessons. And rather
> than posting here for an up or down vote on what Charles
> Neidich or Dan Gilbert said, you should be listening back to
> your recordings and seeing if you hear the same things these
> teachers did and whether or not their comments helped you
> improve.
>
> As a practical matter, there are only a few posters on the
> bboard who are qualified to comment on Charles Neidich's or Dan
> Gilbert's teaching, so when you ask for advice, the bboard
> responses can range from Tony's insightful and succinct post to
> Whiteplainsdave's rambling treatise. In other words, use this
> board with extreme caution.
>
> On to clarinet things.
>
> Charlie cuts 1 to 2 inch pieces of surgical tubing and fits
> them over his thumb rests. It makes the instrument feel
> sturdier on your right hand. Surgical tubing is super cheap at
> Home Depot; spend 2 bucks and try it out.
>
> As far as pushing up the clarinet, he teaches pushing up with
> the right hand and out with the left hand, which creates the
> feeling of the instrument being anchored on your top teeth.
> Steve Williamson, who also studied with Neidich, says the same
> exact thing in the masterclass videos that Seabreeze posted. I
> think the point of this concept is to avoid letting the reed
> sit on the bottom lip as an anchor point, which can have the
> effect of closing off the sound.
>
> Before studying with Neidich, my teacher was a Bonade student,
> and he taught me the famous legato fingers (he, however, found
> Bonade's distinction between finger motion on fast passages and
> slow passages pointless). I too played with slow and smooth
> fingers, similar to what Tony talks about, and Charlie never
> complained about what I was doing. Perhaps in your effort to
> play relaxed, you were getting imprecise finger movement
> (grace-notes between pitches) or maybe small glissandi between
> notes? If so, Charlie could have been responding to those
> issues. Again, if you recorded your lessons, go back and
> listen.
>
> It's also interesting to note that Neidich was at one point a
> fine pianist. I play some piano too (though not as good as
> him), and we've talked about how the technique of the keyboard
> carries over to the clarinet. On the piano, expression is
> directly related to the finger movement (i.e. smoother finger
> action creates a more legato sound, percussive fingers make for
> a more aggressive sound, etc.). On the clarinet you can do
> something similar; I use, for example, rather percussive finger
> motion playing the A clarinet solos from Capriccio
> Espagnol. So it could have also been a matter of your
> finger movement not working for the passage you were playing
> for him.
>
> Anyways, feel free to email me if you'd like some more info on
> Neidich's teaching. He's a brilliant clarinetist and educator,
> and I encourage you to seriously consider the things he talked
> about in your lesson (regardless of what the bboard rabblement
> says).
>
Thank you for the offer I'll email you if I have any relating questions. Also I agree with Professor Neidich the clarinet and piano have many similarities. Much like a singer, violinist, etc. like what you also said my fingers to get imprecise at times
@carson
Agreed I've always thought that. If a student can't ask questions then he's just blindly following someone. If I were a teacher I wouldn't want that. Also how do we produce better teachers? Telling the, and explaining why do something when they were students. That's why there are certain teachers I have to study with like Gilbert, Hawkins, and many more.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-03-06 08:50
Isn't it basic to using the Internet that one is careful with information received therefrom, especially in public forums populated with people that are for the most part anonymous? I suppose it's not amiss to repeat it. But I'll add a little further advice: be especially careful with statements by anyone who claims they know all the answers and everyone else doesn't.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-03-06 11:31
i haven't read all the comments ... BUT...
from my experience, at no point do you want tension/force. But you do want crisp movement. so if your fingers are floppy then that is also not correct. I like to think about finger weight. Using gravity. But people may express this in different ways. So sometimes a correction is worded slightly incorrectly in order to give the correction. Every tutor wants to get you from one point to another. Sometimes they use words intentionally to sort of shock you. I have been in that situation too.. and then gone away and taken that correction WAY too literally. To later find out that wasn't what the tutor was intending!
If finger movement is not from the knuckles, then where is it from? i see a bizarre pushing from some students, but that means they can't play fast.
Re the thumb. I sadly know all about thumb injuries, and fully agree with angling the thumb upwards, so it acts as a balance point, rather than the thumb supporting the instrument. IF the player is carrying the weight of the instrument with their thumb.. that is an awful amount of weight for the thumb to take. i guess it doesn't matter if you only practise 10 mins a day...
There is a famous incident in sydney where we had a famous piano teacher come to the conservatorium. He ruined every single player he taught. They all developed RSI. And from what i have heard, none of the girls ever properly recovered. Although the boys managed to relearn technique etc. My friend who was one of his students has never been able to play again. and this was at least 20 years ago... He was sacked after a few years.. but not before ruining 3 years worth of pianists. I also had lessons with someone ... within 3 months I had RSI, I quickly undid his technique and returned to the previous technique i had used with no permanent damage.
Philip Caron wrote:
> Isn't it basic to using the Internet that one is careful with
> information received therefrom, especially in public forums
> populated with people that are for the most part anonymous? I
> suppose it's not amiss to repeat it. But I'll add a little
> further advice: be especially careful with statements by anyone
> who claims they know all the answers and everyone else doesn't.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-07 00:50
Agomongo,
Charles Neidich is a terrific resource. Listen to him play the Elliot Carter Clarinet Concerto sometime. (On YouTube). Do you have his editions of the Cavallini Caprices and the Paul Jeanjean 18 Advanced Etudes? Both come with CDs of him performing all the etudes and surmounting tons of fingering problems in the process. (These editions are available from Von Cott).
You could try to play along with him in some of the Cavallini Caprices, even though he does take a few at a nearly impossible pace. Others he plays at moderate tempi that ordinary mortals can duplicate. In the Jeanjean there are many passages that require finesse and speed that he maxes. For instance, those extended 32nd notes from page 9 to 11. Etude 6 is a real bear to play, with the fingers working overtime to manage some long passages where you have to figure out exactly where to sneak a breath. Or listen to the "Tres large" near the beginning of Etude 15, which requires your thumb to open and close the register key with perfect timing and make each of the upper tones in the very wide intervals speak without the hint of an undertone or "grunt." If you first read through these, holding your clarinet and fingering but not blowing it, and listen repeatedly to how he makes the passages sound, you will subconsciously, or by trial and error, find a way to properly place your thumb and other fingers correctly, just as he does. I never had a lesson with Neidich, but my own playing improved a lot just from listening to these recordings and eventually trying to duplicate what he's doing.
Post Edited (2018-05-24 07:24)
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-07 01:55
@Carson
Agreed the Internet can be a damaging tool, because of so much information.
@SarahC
Yeah I've been trying to think of crisp and relaxed playing instead of loose and tension less fingers.
Also! About the piano thing. Extremely sad to hear! I play a little but of piano and my god I almost got tendinitis (is that how you spell it?) from bad technique. I've found that my of my colleagues have amazing technique and difficult repertoire under their belt, but they have extreme tension problems. It also seems like a problem is that teachers are more concerned with being able to play hard music rather than tension less playing.
@seabreeze
I'll check that edition out. I've seen on Amazon quite a few times, but never thought of buying it. I'll definitely buy it and check it out.
Though I've felt like I've figured out my thumb positioning. Naturally I find that my thumb is at a 45 degree angle and I place my thumb rest on my thumb between the tip of the nail and the joint.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-07 02:52
On Amazon, make sure to read the fine print and verify that the Neidich edition you order actually has CD recordings enclosed. If it doesn't specifically say CD, it is probably only the sheet music and no CD that you will receive. Von Cott on his clarinet music supply website makes this much more explicit and clear. Buyer Beware!
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-03-08 03:07
seabreeze wrote:
> On Amazon, make sure to read the fine print and verify that the
> Neidich edition you order actually has CD recordings enclosed.
> If it doesn't specifically say CD, it is probably only the
> sheet music and no CD that you will receive. Von Cott on his
> clarinet music supply website makes this much more explicit and
> clear. Buyer Beware!
Thanks for the heads up!
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Author: gwie
Date: 2016-03-09 03:50
This is wonderful detail, just one thing though:
> the reality is that the string needs to be pressed
> against the fingerboard all at once
On modern instruments, due to the projection of the fingerboard, the string is not stopped by the fingerboard itself but by the fingers. Especially as one reaches into the higher register, pushing the string all the way down to the fingerboard is not only unnecessary, but creates undesirable tension in the hand. This is most pronounced on the highest string (the E) as usually being steel it doesn't have as much give as the lower strings (usually synthetic or gut). Pushing it down hard enough actually can cause the pitch of the string to change!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-09 05:06
gwie wrote:
> This is wonderful detail, just one thing though:
>
> > the reality is that the string needs to be pressed
> > against the fingerboard all at once
>
> On modern instruments, due to the projection of the
> fingerboard, the string is not stopped by the fingerboard
> itself but by the fingers. Especially as one reaches into the
> higher register, pushing the string all the way down to the
> fingerboard is not only unnecessary, but creates undesirable
> tension in the hand.
You're probably right. I never played that high on the fingerboard when I taught beginning strings - I barely managed 3rd position on a violin - and I'd have to ask my violist wife about anything at that level, but the point is the same. The string has to be stopped, not just damped, which creates a harmonic on the string or in the analogous situation on a woodwind, a squeak.
Karl
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