 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-02-20 08:32
Okay so many questions with the differences:
1.Is one really better than the other?
2.Also, what's that "German sound"?
3.Does one have better intonation?
4. I also heard that it's harder to be flexible when one plays the German setup
5. Is Wurtlizer the same as the German clarinet?
I remember I read somewhere that the lever action on the German clarinet was prone to bending. I then asked my friend who use to live in Germany told me that the clarinetists there who play German clarinet were always worrying about their keys and that many times before a concert... they bent. I also read before that Barenboim couldn't even hear the difference in sound between a French and German.
I know there are two other forums about German stuff, but I didn't wanted to hijack their forum.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-02-20 08:40
1. Nah
2. To me, sounds more "covered". Less brilliance. I prefer brilliance.
3. Nope.
4. I think so. But that's my opinion. Could also be a symptom of me not knowing or hearing any German clarinets used in other than REALLY classical music.
5. Wurlitzer is a brand famous for its German clarinets. So, sorta, yeah.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-02-20 08:43
Others can answer most of these better than I, but German makers now make "German system" (Oehler), French bore Boehm, German bore Reform Boehm, and even "hybrid" instruments, so "German clarinets" can mean a lot of things. Personally, I think a reasonable comparison should also include English clarinets on the B & H/Peter Eaton model, because they have unique characteristics and are quite worthy of standing next to French and German instruments.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-02-20 09:27
Attachment: image.jpeg (81k)
Here's a photo comparing the two systems. If you're looking for recordings of people with "German" sounds (who of course sound as different from one another as they would on French instruments), some people who play German system instruments are Karl Leister, Wenzel Fuchs, Sabine Meyer, Michele Zukovsky, the Ottensamers (actually they might play Austrian system instruments, which are similar), among others.
Post Edited (2016-02-20 09:29)
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-02-20 09:31
I see yeah, but to be honest to say one is better than the other seems a little... unreasonable. Since they're both pretty different and both have their ups and downs. I feel like many problems the Boehm system has the Oehler system has the same OR another in another area problem.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-20 13:29
Dear Agomongo,
You basically have it. They are "different."
Robert Marcellus used to say that Boehm made flat scales easier and Oehler made sharp scales easier, but I think they just have their own advantages and disadvantages.
I would say though having played Oehler exclusively for a period of 13 years that they did have the most even intonation of any other clarinet that I played. If you think about it though, the whole point of the Boehm idea was to simplify the fingering issue by adding in some intonation quirks that could easily be compensated with the embouchure. Over the years, the Oehler system refined the keying to the point where there really is no serious mechanical detriment.
That said. non-custom German clarinets are tuned higher to meet the demands of the pitch center in Germany and Austria. The intonation to which I refer is INTERNAL pitch, one note relative to the other.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-02-21 12:01
I see that makes sense. Well to be honest I've listened to Leister, Meyer, etc. and I have a hard time believing that tone quality like them can't be matched by the Boehm system. Honestly it's so personal! Drucker and McGill are both Boehm players and yet they sound extremely different! Then there's Ottensamer and Meyer who are Oehler players and they ALSO sound extremely different. That whole "this German (or French) clarinet gives a ___ sound." I think is a whole load of BS... IMO. Then I hear people who play French who sound similar to other artists who play German. I think it's just facial structure, reeds, mouthpieces, and barrel that change the sound in the end.
Not to say that the clarinet make and model has NO influence on tone, but I would count it as a 5%-10% factor in changing the sound. I've tried 3 Prestiges, 6 R13's, 2 Toscas, 2 Divines, etc. and NONE of them when I played them had a better sound than the Vintage! I love my Vintage! Sure the low F doesn't have that venting thing that the high 8k+ clarinets have, but it has a much better sound... IMO. I can always compensate that flat low F (though it is a little difficult at times), but that could just be me being incompetent with voicing, air, embo, etc.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-21 14:23
Certainly the most important aspect to the great musicians is.........their musicianship. I was just listening to Ottensamer (of Berlin) playing a Brahms serenade and I was struck by how much he plays with tempo (such as holding on to an initial sixteenth note of a running phrase). These are the things that make great musicians not the equipment.
But once we get past that issue, there are differences in equipment, though more subtle and less important. Some years ago I had a long stint on a full Wurlitzer set-up. My playing didn't magically change. But it was clear there was a certain acoustic stamp on the sound.
Your number of 5-10% sounds about right. For some, that might be significant enough to use one instrument over another............such as a Buffet Vintage.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-02-22 15:15
Questions of the OP:
1.Is one really better than the other?
No
2.Also, what's that "German sound"?
There is not a single "German" sound, like there is no single French sound. The typical German instruments, mouthpieces and reeds can produce a more robust sound than a typical French setup. For me the most important feature is the clarity and transperancy of the sound. The German sound is certainly not "covered" imho.
3.Does one have better intonation?
No. However intonation can differ: German instruments can be played with a more relaxed embouchure (like a Selmer sax). While typical French clarinets must be played with relative stronger reeds.
4. I also heard that it's harder to be flexible when one plays the German setup
True. The German reeds are "stiffer" and less flexible.
5. Is Wurtlizer the same as the German clarinet?
Wurlitzer is a prominent German clarinet maker. But there are others like Leitner & Kraus, Swenck & Seggelke, Puchner, and many other small clarinet makers in Germany. Also, Yamaha makes German clarinets.
6. I remember I read somewhere that the lever action on the German clarinet was prone to bending.
Never heard of and certainly not the case on Wurlitzer clarinets which have very solid keywork.
7. I also read before that Barenboim couldn't even hear the difference in sound between a French and German.
Could be very true.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-02-22 19:28
From Greg Smith:
"Well as far as I know, we are the first and only clarinetists to ever do this kind of thing full time here in the US - that is to play French and German system on the same concert. It was suggested by Barenboim awhile back and Larry and I took the ball and ran with it. We started with them in summer '94. The funny thing is that Barenboim can never tell which horns we are using."
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=18782&t=18738
I could give many examples of woodwind players and famous clarinetists (including Karl Leister) who couldn't hear the difference between French and German instruments. I've sat in many blind auditions myself and am not always right about which system is being used. It feels very different playing the two systems, but in my opinion the audible result has far more to do with the player.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-02-22 21:12
1.Is one really better than the other?
In terms of fingering only, most people believe French system is easier.
2.Also, what's that "German sound"?
Hard to describe but the most attractive point here is that German sound is the one all great German-Austrian composers heard and composed for, such as Mozart (maybe not accurate as the clarinet that time was too original), Beethoven (same), Weber, Brahms, Schumann, Mahler etc.
3.Does one have better intonation?
I personally think German system is better (i.e., it needs less control by the player) but this is certainly also related to certain model and brand.
4. I also heard that it's harder to be flexible when one plays the German setup
In terms of tone color, maybe, but for dynamics, there is no difference as far as I can observe.
5. Is Wurtlizer the same as the German clarinet?
No, now there are several great workshops in Germany and Austria producing high-end German (or Austrian) clarinets.
Lee
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2016-02-22 21:27
Klose wrote:
> In terms of fingering only, most people believe French system
> is easier.
>
Yes, but there are fewer alternate fingerings to figure out. There's less chance of a train wreck from starting on the wrong finger. Jack Brymer said something along the lines of "Where the German player needs nimble fingers the Boehm player needs a nimble brain".
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-02-22 21:32
Dibbs wrote:
> Yes, but there are fewer alternate fingerings to figure out.
> There's less chance of a train wreck from starting on the wrong
> finger. Jack Brymer said something along the lines of "Where
> the German player needs nimble fingers the Boehm player needs a
> nimble brain".
This is not always true, for little finger keys, probably, but for high C and fifth line F, German system has more alternatives (3 for each)...
Lee
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-02-22 22:49
"I could give many examples of woodwind players and famous clarinetists (including Karl Leister) who couldn't hear the difference between French and German instruments. I've sat in many blind auditions myself and am not always right about which system is being used. It feels very different playing the two systems, but in my opinion the audible result has far more to do with the player."
Despite my comments in another thread, it's time I agreed on this...there was an incident a few years back that I'd forgotten about. A jazz friend of mine once asked me to guess which instrument he'd used on each track of his most recent album. The 12-15 tracks had been recorded at various sessions over several years. During that time he'd switched between Leblanc, Rossi, Wurlitzer, and I think a Selmer. I was confident I'd be able to tell, going in, but ended up guessing on every track. I was wrong on most of them, and the times I hit were just luck.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-02-24 08:02
MarlboroughMan wrote:
> "I could give many examples of woodwind players and famous
> clarinetists (including Karl Leister) who couldn't hear the
> difference between French and German instruments. I've sat in
> many blind auditions myself and am not always right about which
> system is being used. It feels very different playing the two
> systems, but in my opinion the audible result has far more to
> do with the player."
>
>
> Despite my comments in another thread, it's time I agreed on
> this...there was an incident a few years back that I'd
> forgotten about. A jazz friend of mine once asked me to guess
> which instrument he'd used on each track of his most recent
> album. The 12-15 tracks had been recorded at various sessions
> over several years. During that time he'd switched between
> Leblanc, Rossi, Wurlitzer, and I think a Selmer. I was
> confident I'd be able to tell, going in, but ended up guessing
> on every track. I was wrong on most of them, and the times I
> hit were just luck.
>
>
> Eric
>
Exactly I feel like it's mind over matter.
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