 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-02-17 03:45
I re-did my old student clarinet (YCL-24II, serial n. 2903) with cork in the upper joint, and it hisses, especially the trill keys. I vented some of them more by making the pads thinner, but they still hiss. Do I need to round the edges of the pads or something? Do cork pads need to be vented higher than bladder pads?
It could be that the clarinet always hissed, and I just don't remember it. The A and Ab keys hiss, but they are wide open. The LH Ab/Db also hisses something fierce, but it has a bladder pad in at the moment.
Thanks!
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-02-17 04:24
They shouldn't hiss. I've used cork pads all of my life and never heard of this happening. It's something new for me.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-02-17 12:42
It must be the clarinet. I played another student model I have with factory bladder pads and it does the same thing. It's not that loud, it's like the register key. Venting more helps, but the problem must be the tone holes.
I did wonder if the cork reflects the hissing from the tone holes more than the bladder. There probably aren't a lot of student horns with cork pads.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-17 17:33
Have you tried using a slightly softer reed? That will lower the breath resistance and reduce the 'hissing' in the lower register.
How much venting have you given the keys? You want a minimum of 2mm on the speaker keys and throat G# and A keys and up to but no more than 3mm on the LH1 and 2 ring key pads, the C#/G#, side and cross Eb/Bb keys, side F# key and lower (Bb) trill key. But in any case, more venting is much better than less venting.
If you have a chance to look at a Backun MoBa clarinet, the ventings are set nice and high on them, so use their ventings as a guide.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-02-18 06:26
Thanks Chris, I appreciate the help.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-02-20 05:21
Are you getting around a 15 plus second seal when checking for pad leaks? Often cork pads are hard to set and maybe the hissing is a leaking pad?
Often, when I'm putting on a cork pad it can take 15 minutes to get the dang pad to seal correctly. I may have to take the key off 5 to 10 times to set the pad. Using the softest cork is the best type of cork.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-20 06:14
On the contrary - the firmest cork pads are best ones to use, but they have to be free from any defects as do the toneholes they seat against in order for them to be successful.
So fill in any chips or small defects in the tonehole rims and level them before using cork pads - or any pads for that matter.
You can't use cork pads immediately (as they are when you buy them) as you have to grind the faces down to both smooth out and level them before you install them to ensure you get a perfect seal. Also they're often too thick so they need to be thinned down to the correct thickness before being installed.
There are two ways of seating cork pads - you can either:
A. Glue the pad firmly into the pad cup (with shellac) and once cooled, fit the key and check where the pad is making contact with the tonehole, then remove the key and trim the pad down a bit (if needed with a fresh razor blade), then grind the face down with several increasingly finer grades of abrasive laid on glass or pumice blocks ground flat until it seats perfectly against the tonehole. You'll have to keep fitting and removing the key to do this which will take time, but you'll have a pad that won't shift and won't have any air pockets under it. Don't overgrind the pad so the front is thinner than the back or it'll look bad. Ideally you want an even amount of pad showing from all around the circumference of the pad cup and all pads to have the same amount showing wherever possible (which may not be easy or even possible to achieve on some clarinets), or...
B. Grind the face of the pad flat (again with increasingly finer grades of abrasive) and trim the back to make it the correct thickness when checking it by dry fitting it in the pad cup (with no shellac), then slightly dome the back so it can move within the pad cup (like a ball and socket joint) and install the pad by floating it on molten shellac and adjusting it to seat as desired while the shellac is still molten. You may need to relevel the pad as the heat from the molten shellac can distort them if the grain runs at an angle through the pad, so pick the pads where the grain runs as parallel with the face as possible.
For domed speaker key pads, grind and level a cork pad of the correct diameter down and install it in the manner you prefer and leave it for a while. An impression of the speaker tube will soon enough be evident on the face of the pad and use this as a guide when it comes to doming the pad. Use a fresh razor blade and trim the cork away from the edge of the impression right to where the pad meets the pad cup to form it into a dome or cone shape when viewed from the side (or trapezoid as it has a flat top) and finish it with abrasive paper so it's all smooth instead of having choppy, rough hewn sides. Then check it still seals against the speaker tube when you're done. If the width of the speaker tube crown is fairly thick, you can dome the pad so the apex is within the width of the crown and check it still seals when closed. If it leaks, then replace it and start again with a new cork pad.
If your cork pads are a bit too wide and don't fit easily into their respective pad cups, the sides can be sanded down until they fit. Either by hand or spun and sanded down until the correct diameter is met. I use a metal disc mounted in my bench motor and superglue the pad onto this, then once centred, the pad can be spun and sanded down and checked for fit with an empty pad cup. Then trim the pad off the disc with a razor blade and prepare the pad for installation.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-02-20 08:45
Well we all have our ways I suppose. I have to disagree with you on this one. The reason I avoid hard cork is the cork will make a clacking sound when the keys hit the key holes and it gets worse as the horn/cork gets older and harder. I could go on and on, but again we all have different ways of doing repairs. I know you mean well and offering your advice, which is great. That's what this site is for.
I'm just trying to figure out whats wrong with Matt's horn. I did have the great honor of studying side by side with perhaps the best repairman in the country here in the US. Hans Moenig. in Philadelphia during the late 1970's. At that time we cut cork pads from cork in wine bottles. The best cork seemed to come from France, it had less holes in it and it was soft. Thought the readers here might find this interesting. Hans had a temper, but a was still a very sweet man.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-02-20 09:29
Matt74, it sounds like you replaced the pads yourself, so I guess you don't have a problem taking keys off.
Find a note that is "hissy", take the key off (the key that is open when you play the note) and check how the note plays without the key. See if there's a difference.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-20 19:26
Bob - while cork pads do make far more mechanical noise than skin or leather pads, I did a test while on a show one evening. I had one of the other reed players play my clarinet (which is cork padded down to the RH3 B/F# sliver key pad) and while sat next to him, asked him to play a low register B-C trill and an upper F#-G trill. As I have cork pads in the RH ring key vent, that definitely makes noise when it's closed heavily without playing.
But what surprised me is when he was playing those trills and I told him to play the trill in a heavy-handed manner but at around an mp/mf level, I couldn't hear the pad noise at all and I was only sat a couple or so feet away. So that was quite a revelation to me - I can hear the pad noise while I play, but it doesn't carry.
Personally I find cork pads to be the easiest to install due to their firmness and also being level, whereas skin pads are my pet hate as they can tear or wear out as well as most aren't level and take a fair bit of effort to make them level (and they can recover to not being level again).
But cork pads are only as successful as the toneholes they seat against, so get both perfect and you have a pad that will seat for decades. I've worked on loads of oboes and cors from the '60s through to the '90s that still have their original cork pads and are still in good order.
In any case, clarinets often need more venting than most are set up with - this is definitely evident on lower register C and E, so increase the opening of the RH ring keys and the LH2 ring key pad will follow suit and that will clear the stuffiness these notes often have.
The quality of the lower register C# is always a big problem on most clarinets due to the compromises makers have to make as the tonehole is set much higher up the joint and the tonehole diameter is made smaller to properly tune this note at the cost of the tone quality (likewise with cor anglais E tonehole).
The C#/G# tonehole should ideally be placed about half way between the D (LH3) and C (RH ring key vent) toneholes which places it so it would have to go right through the socket and tenon. On clarinets with articulated C#/G# it does and has a full sized tonehole, but on regular clarinets it's mounted on the top joint and there's not much room for it at all. Some clarinets have a tonehole chimney fitted to help the C# (common on German/Oehler systems and on some Boehms), but most have a plain tonehole which should be drilled into the bore at an angle to reduce the likelyhood of condensation blocking it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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