 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-02-04 00:46
Question for experienced, secure bass clarinetists:
When I try to use the separation point of the reed and mouthpiece curve as a starting point for how much reed to take in, I have realized just today (after all these decades) that my tongue doesn't come very close to the reed tip for articulation without the sense of seriously distorting my tongue. If I tongue with a comfortable tongue stroke and position at the tip of the reed (as I do on a soprano clarinet), my lower lip is much closer to the tip of the reed than when I place it near the separation point.
I've never been a very good bass clarinetist and have always had trouble with articulation, especially on certain clarion and altissimo notes. What is the most common solution to this conundrum? Articulation for me is cleaner and more reliable at the tip. The sound seems, of course, to be bigger if I take more mouthpiece.
FWIW, I'm using #2-1/2 Legere Signature reeds on one of Walter Grabner's Lawrie Bloom model mouthpieces. My bass clarinet's neck is angled slightly upward and I tend toward using an angle similar to the one I use for a soprano clarinet.
Karl
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-02-04 06:51
Karl -
It sounds to me like you're trying to take too much mouthpiece in your mouth. If you are actually at the separation point, it would make it easy to lose control of the sound as well as make it harder to articulate.
Also, it sounds like you are using too soft of a reed right now I am using an older Legere 3 1/2 and a Vandoren V12 3 1/2. Maybe with a slightly harder reed, and a more natural embouchure position, you can get good articulation AND a bigger sound.
You are welcome to give me a call BTW. Phone number is on the website!
Walter
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-02-04 18:17
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "separation" point. Just me I guess. I've played and taught bass clarinet all my life and this has always been my philosophy. I encourage people, as I do, to start by taking in as much MP as possible and than backing off to where if feels most comfortable and gives you the best result. It could be slightly different for each person because of many physical traits as well as the shape and size of the beak of the MP. I always encourage a MP that fits the player but the one you're using is a very high quality one. I also encourage a stronger reed, again depending of the player and MP. Usually at least a #3 -3 1/2, sometimes a #4 depending on what i mentioned.
I actually move my teeth slightly on my MP. When I didn't use a teeth pad I had sliding teeth marks on the top of the beak. I do that instinctively not on purpose so it just comes natural depending on the reed, the register and the passage.
As far as articulation, I do angle the MP closer to how I play clarinet but not as much, and I tongue in what I consider a "comfortable" position. I don't try to get too close to the tip because that makes me choke and close off the air flow. I do tongue as close to the tip of my tongue as comfortable but not the actual tip. I do have to say that i have a 'larger' tongue then would be ideal so I've had to make adjustments on both clarinet and bass clarinet but I managed to have a succuesful and long playing and teaching career. 51 years as a pro, 50 in the Baltimore Sympnony.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-02-04 21:11
The mouthpiece is excellent - a vast improvement over any of the half-dozen others I own and had played on when I was much younger. The cane reeds I have in my reed holder are #3-1/2 Vandoren (can't tell from the logos if they're traditionals or V.12s) and, actually, they do respond better for me than the Signatures I've been using this week. Problem is I'm playing a run in the pit at a local school - there's not too much bass, but what there is unfortunately exploits exactly the response problems I have had historically. I'm trying to avoid dry reed problems when I pick up the bass after a half hour of Bb to play a big, range-y solo with staccato altissimo notes - - somewhere along the way something invariably squawks. Maybe during dress rehearsal I'll find the cane won't dry as much as I expect.
When I've tried harder Legeres I've found them to be unresponsive and dull sounding. Even the #2-3/4 (I only have one) feels tubby, which is why I went to the #2-1/2. I'll try to get a couple of 3-1/2 Legeres (Signatures?) and see how they work but my experience with Legeres (and Forestones) on soprano doesn't give me faith.
Ed, I'm interested that you said, "I don't try to get too close to the tip because that makes me choke and close off the air flow." I assume you're talking about the tip of the reed because your next sentence talks about the tongue tip. Do you tongue the same way on soprano? Is this a difference between the two, or do you not tongue at the reed tip in general? 55 years ago one of my first clarinet teachers was Leon Lester. He taught me to use the middle of my tongue, which wouldn't have comfortably reached to tip of the reed even if I had known enough to try. He never talked, that I remember, about anchoring the tongue tip to anything (bottom teeth), so I'm not sure he actually was teaching me to anchor-tongue. So is tonguing lower on the reed a specifically bass clarinet approach or was that just the way he played?
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-02-04 21:20
So, the hardest Signature available is #3. I'll try the standard Legere in #3-1/2.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-04 22:45
For me it is tip of the tongue to the tip of the reed.......period. And I also disagree that there is a choice as to where you position the mouthpiece in your embouchure. Given the "sqwawk point" (which is what I think you are talking about), there is ONE ideal point along the facing to maximize the response of that mouthpiece. And yes, it may even feel as if the tip of your tongue is curling back to get to the tip of the reed, but that is because you are used to applying the tongue differently to that ideal.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: rdc
Date: 2016-02-04 23:54
Lawrie Bloom talks about articulation on the bass clarinet here:
http://www.woodwinds.daddario.com/woodwindsMedia.Page?ActiveID=2953&MediaId=275&TabId=4&mname=Lawrie_Bloom_on_Articulation
He says that because of the angle of the bass clarinet mouthpiece in the mouth, it works better for him to articulate slightly below the absolute tip of the reed. I'm no expert but have been playing a lot of bass clarinet in recent years, and I think I get better results articulating as Bloom describes. I feel that for me this has to do more with how much of the mouthpiece is in the mouth compared with soprano clarinet than the angle of the mouthpiece.
Robert Chest
Post Edited (2016-02-04 23:56)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-02-05 00:52
KDK, sorry I wasnt clear. I pretty much do the same thing as Bloom does. I do use the tip of my tongue, or pretty close to it, but NOT the tip of the reed. That's what I meant when I said in order to do that I would either have to take very little mouthpiece in my mouth or my tongue would block my air passage and or feel like I'm choking. Clarinet and bass clarinet are two different animals but the tonguing is similar in some ways but different in others because of the bigger mouthpiece and the angle. Bottom line is comfort and result. That's why I say to experiment a little with the angle, how much MP to take in and where to place the tongue on the reed. I'm my opinion it's more important what part of the tongue touches to reed that what part of the reed it touches.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-02-05 01:19
Ed, do you find staccato in the upper clarion and altissimo different from those big chalumeau notes that Lawrie uses to demonstrate in the clip Robert cited? I've never had a problem tonguing or getting a sound below the "break" or up to about an F (top space, treble clef - F5 on a soprano clarinet, I guess it's F4 on a bass). But individual staccato notes from F# on up become treacherous.
On your and Walter's advice, I'm experimenting with harder reeds. That's taking me in the right direction but doesn't seem to be a total solution.
You also said, "I actually move my teeth slightly on my MP. When I didn't use a teeth pad I had sliding teeth marks on the top of the beak." When your teeth move, does the reed move on your lip as well, or does the reed stay still and it's the angle that changes?
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-02-05 09:24
Karl, I believe it's unconscience but I believe I actually take a little less MP in my mouth when I go to the altissimo register on the bass but I think it depends on the passage and the reed. In other words, I might not change anything just tonguing a scale passage going up go say a high E or F but if I have to play quickly repeated notes about the high D on the bass i might take a little less mouthpiece. It's just a matter of adjusting to what works. One doesn't have to be so rigid and never to be flexible. Again, experiment with slighltly different angles and amount of MP you take, even in the upper register. You might be choking in your throat, closing it, or raising your tongue too high in back. It could be any number of reasons you have a problem tonguing up high. Instead of continuing here you could write me a palanker@aol.com to carry on our conversation if you wish. But it's really difficult to analyze a problem with texts.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-02-05 18:57
I suggest trying Legere Studio cut tenor sax reeds too on bass clarinet. They are the exact same shape as the Legere bass clarinet reeds but are not sold as BC reeds. I use a 2.75 Studio cut on fairly open tipped BC mouthpieces (.083-.093"). I find them equivalent or a little softer than 2.5 regular cuts. I did not care for the Signature cut at all. It all depends on your mouthpiece facing and embouchure as to what works for you. Synthetic reeds are a big plus for pit work.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-02-06 04:22
Thanks for all the ideas, everyone. Now it's time to sit down and experiment. I've put off solving this problem for, literally, decades, since I don't play bass often. I've just decided it's time in my approaching dotage to stop dodging and finally figure things out.
Karl
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