 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-01-23 15:15
I'm wanting to know which brand student clarinet has the best tone for an adult learning the clarinet? I'm already a musician and play numerous instruments, so the tone of the clarinet is more important to me than the durability, though the functionality is important too. Would I be better to get a wooden clarinet for tone?
Which of these would be better tone-wise?
1. Buffet B12
2. Selmer Bundy
3. LeBlanc Normandy
4. LeBlanc Vito V7214
5. Vito Resotone
6. Yamaha 250
Post Edited (2016-01-26 04:09)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-01-23 15:50
Hi Susanne,
Welcome to the Clarinet BB. All of those instruments are acceptable student clarinets (assuming they are in good adjustment). However, the mouthpiece and reed you use are much more important.
Fortunately, there are a lot of excellent student mouthpieces available for anywhere from $30-50. Do a search on this BB but here is a thread to get you started.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=277857&t=277857
There will also be some reed and ligature selections mentioned.
Good luck,
HRL
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-01-23 15:50
A wooden Normandy (Leblanc) is your best bet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-01-24 01:34
I second Chris' recommendation of the wooden Normandy.
Avoid the Model 7 if it has squared-off touchpieces on the left-hand E/B and F#/C# levers. These are uncommon, thankfully.
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-01-26 04:41
Attachment: 442733094.jpg (522k)
Attachment: 442733107.jpg (130k)
I'm pleased you mentioned the touchpieces. There is a Normandy that i'm looking at getting and I've figured out it is a model no 7. Could you look at the photos attached and let me know if they are squared off or not? Thanks So Much!
Kind Regards Susanne
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-01-26 09:47
Thanks heaps Hank for the info and the nice welcome. I checked out the link you posted and have looked up the retail prices (in New Zealand) of the mouthpieces that were recommended. Once I get a Clarinet i'll go in and get a mouthpiece/reeds too. All very exciting! :-)
Post Edited (2016-01-26 09:48)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-01-26 12:12
Suzanne, the Normandy 7 in your photos does not have the squared-off touchpieces.
The upper joint Normandy logo looks rather faint, due to wear and/or really dried-out wood. You'll want an expert technician to carefully go over this one.
In any case--good luck with your Normandy! A c. 1951 Normandy was my first wooden clarinet, and there's just something about the voicing and response of it that keeps it among my favourite all-time clarinets. I hope you'll likewise find something special about yours, too.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-01-26 18:28
Conspicuously missing from your list is the Buffet E12F. It is a wonderful clarinet for the money, sort of like a baby R13. It also comes with silver keys,
Buffet needs to publicize this horn more, it's too good for people not to know about it!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Clarinets and mouthpieces!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2016-01-26 18:29)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-01-26 18:49
While I'm not really in the market for one, I have also looked at old Normandys (Normandies?). And I note that while most models have inline trill keys like Noblets, Leblancs, and Ridenours, some- like the one Susanne shows, have the "regular" kind (is there a better word?). Should anyone care? I've always been partial to the inline type- should I be?
And for old Normandys- do the regular trill keys correspond to a better design (for other reasons), worse, or no indicator at all?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-01-27 01:50
Stan, the Normandy models without the inline trill keys (Special, 6, some model 8, 5P, 14P, etc) always had lower list prices than otherwise-identical models with the inline keys. It was touted in Noblet-Normandy literature as a cost-saving measure. I don't think it makes any difference in the playability of the instrument; Buffets, Yamahas, and Backuns seem to do just fine without inline trill keys.
In this generation of the model 7 only the second-down trill key is offset and the other three are inline. Earlier generations of Model 7 have all-inline trill keys and were Model 10s with composite bells (1st gen) or composite barrels and bells (2nd gen).
The Model 7 pictured above was the entry-level wooden Normandy of the day.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-01-28 02:23
Susanne u r like me.
I put a vandoren b45 mouthpiece on my armstrong student and it sounds pretty good. Armstrong flutes were known to be strong enough to hit a cricket ball with, and I feel the same amount the armstrong key work. It seriously has taken a battering from my stduents (the original reason I bought it was so my students could touch it and experience it first hand, not just in a theory book).
But as u say u r already a musician, I would suspect if u buy one of those, within a few weeks u will want something better. At least, I lasted 9 days before I realised I eneeded something better than the armstrong. Still deciding though!
The amatis are a good price for what u get. Depending on the nzd though. The lyriques get amazing reviews here, and u could get one in c, and not have to deal with ruining your perfect pitch (if u have it that is!)
The hansons from England also are very highly spoken of on here, and depending on the current nzd to gbp exchange rate, they can be very cheap for what u get relatively. I am seriously considering a Hanson atm...
The aud is so poor atm, which is my only hesitation.
I did get a buffet e11 in C, but it has been a nightmare, and I wouldn't recommend them based on my experiences with mine...
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-01-28 04:15
Hello Sarah C.
Yes it's quite complex choosing the right clarinet that's for sure! This site though is excellent and so helpful. I have really appreciated being able to ask advice from those with more knowledge than me. It can be an expensive exercise purchasing a Clarinet so I don't really want to make mistakes getting one.
The exchange rate is not that great at the moment, but there are so many clarinets available overseas compared to NZ, I'm weighing it up, I think i'll check out both NZ and overseas and when the right Clarinet jumps out at me, i'll go with that.
One would have thought a C11 would have been fine. For awhile I was going to go for a Buffet B12 but then I read quite a few things saying the student clarinets weren't fantastic. Which confused me, as they are a great brand, but now i'm pleased I didn't go for it because I really like the idea of a wooden Normandy. A student clarinet with a nice tone, can't get better than that! And I imagine it would easily take me through to Intermediate level too.
Thanks, i'll check out the lyriques and hansons, I hadn't even heard of those. Sooooo many different types of Clarinets, but then that's a good thing.
I'm going to follow 'Hank Lehrer' reccomendations on mouthpieces, hopefully i'll stick with the same instrument and just switch up mouthpieces as I progress.
All the best with your search!
Susanne
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-01-28 04:41
Thanks Greg for checking out the Normandy for me. I had noticed the logo was quite faint, but didn't quite know what to make of it. Do you think I should pass on this Normandy and wait for another one to come up in NZ (or get one from overseas). If the wood has dried could it be bought back easily with a service or is it a more complex issue? The purchase price of this one is quite high compared to the other student Clarinets in NZ (though they are mostly plastic), though I would have to wait awhile for another one to be available in NZ.
Apparently it was completely refurbished in 2009 but i'm not sure how regularly it has been serviced since then.
Even though I haven't even purchased a Normandy yet, it just feels like it will be the right fit for me, so yes I'm sure I will find it very special :-)
Kind Regards
Susanne
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-01-28 06:20
I just had the opportunity to try a Ridenour t147, and it has lovely tone etc. So I can only assume the lyrique is better, and that is another option in the second hand market which sounds like wood.
Good luck with it all. And enjoy learning!
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-01-28 13:31
Hi, Susanne:
I did some checking on the climate in the Auckland area, and it seems more likely that this clarinet, having been overhauled in 2009, is worn rather than dried-out. If it were my money at stake, I wouldn't take a chance on this one.
The USA market is flooded with old wooden clarinets, if you haven't already noticed. It is not difficult at all to score a good fixer-upper Normandy on US eBay for under US$100.
But, if you were going to go through that much trouble, you might as well go for a Noblet 40 or 45, the instruments upon which the wooden Normandy models are based. There is not much of a premium to be paid for a Noblet versus a Normandy. The Noblet 45 is equipped with corrosion-resistant gold-plated springs and is supposed to be made of better wood and with more hand finishing than other Noblet models, including Normandy.
Another thought: If you're getting serious about the clarinet, you will surely want a composite-bodied instrument to go along with your fine wooden clarinet. The Vito 7214 that you mentioned in your original post is actually an updated version of the Normandy 14, a composite-bodied instrument based on the wooden Normandy and Noblet models. Key placement, tuning, and response of the 7214 are similar to wooden Normandy and Noblet models. You'll feel right at home switching between the 7214 and a Normandy or Noblet. If these are more readily available, you could start with the Vito 7214 and then wait for the right wooden Normandy or Noblet to come along.
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-01-29 05:09
Hi Greg.
I am now the proud owner of a 7214!! Thank-you thank-you kind sir for your help, I really appreciate it. You've saved me hundreds of dollars :-) And your last email was perfectly timed as the auction for the Clarinet ended today. So all in all an excellent plan! I've been researching Clarinets for about 2 months, now I can get to the fun part of learning, i've wanted to play the Clarinet for years.
I have seen a 1967 Noblet 40 come up and it looks really tidy (though that is from a novice perspective) the wood looks to be in much better condition than the Normandy. Though I think I will follow your advice and go for a Noblet 45, I really like the sound of the hand finishing and being able to easily switch between the 45 and the 7214. Being a beginner at this stage, i'll wait till i'm more at an intermediate level and a 45 comes available. I imagine the two will coincide. I recently saw a youtube clip of someone playing a Normandy and it really does have a lovely warm sound to it. I imagine a 45 would be even better.
I've played a lot of Jazz over the years and really like the mix of Clarinet/Jazz, it will take me awhile to get fluid enough on the Clarinet to be able to get the percussive type accenting without squawking! I will persevere :-)
Hopefully I get my new Clarinet on Monday, i'll see how I go with it and might go and buy a new mouthpiece if I find the current one difficult. Finding easy and interesting music to play, other than baa baa black sheep, is also high on my agenda.
Kindest Regards
Susanne
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-01-30 15:01
Glad to be of assistance, Susanne!
For a couple of years, my soprano clarinets were a Vito 7214 and the c. 1951 Normandy mentioned above. Transitioning between the two as needed was no problem.
The Vito 7214 has a certain charm of its own, as you'll soon discover.
Please, do yourself a favour and splurge on a fine mouthpiece. Watch out for sharpness in the throat tones relative to the rest of the scale when auditioning a mouthpiece on the 7214.
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-02-05 03:13
Hi Sarah
I've had it for a few days now and i'm loving it! It came with two mouthpieces, so i'm swapping between the two to see if I like either of them. And I went out and purchased a few different brands of reeds. And have found even the reeds make a surprising difference to the sound. On my current mouthpieces I think I like Vandoren Reeds, but i'm also going to order some Gonzalez reeds and see how they go. Have you tried or heard of Gonzalez reeds, are they worth getting?
The Vandoren reeds give it a more smooth, silky tone which I like. It is quite rich sounding, which I hadn't imagined.
How are you going with your search? It's exciting and daunting looking for the right Clarinet, amongst all of the Clarinets that are available. But this forum certainly helps heaps!
It's quite weird going back to being a beginner, as an adult :-) It's really exciting and challenging and that's great, I also have a few pangs of frustration at the level that i'm at, but I suppose that will propel me on and help keep the practice up.
Good luck and keep me updated!
Susanne
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-05 03:27
The biggest problem being an adult beginner on a completely new and unrelated instrument, even though you've already done time on another one which you're well established on, is the frustration of wanting quick results but having to go back to basics and working up from there.
It's like learning how to walk on your hands even though you've spent your whole life walking on your feet - you can do that without thinking, but the new and different method and skill is going to take time to get used to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-05 03:34
I personally didn't find those gonzalez reeds suited me. I prefer the Rico royales so far.. haven't tried vandoren yet.
I am in the same boat as you. And the neighbour is a musician and commented that I sound really good now! Haha! Yay.
I am enjoying practising on my armstrong while I make my decisions! Haha. No rush, on the other hand I have 10,000$ flutes when I think in hindsight that was a waste.. I didn't need to get a flute that expensive, a 3000$ model would have done the job excellently too... so I am conscious of this factor as well...
Glad u r having fun. I love the feeling of starting from scratch on an instrument.. it is an addiction of mine I guess!
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-02-05 07:34
Hi, Susanne:
Glad to hear that your Vito 7214 is working out! The 7x14 series was once Vito's top-of-the-line soprano clarinet, and marketed as an intermediate instrument.
What mouthpieces were included with your Vito?
I found that Vandoren V12, Gonzalez FOF, and Olivieri were nice choices for my 7214. Knowing what mouthpieces you play would help in making a suggestion. I wouldn't try the FOF just yet as it takes a lot of air support to play effectively.
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-02-08 09:38
Hi SarahC
Well done you! It sounds like you are actually ahead of me.. having a musician neighbour giving you the thumbs up! I think it will be awhile before someone enjoys listening to me play :-) I'm just happy to play notes, haha, and not in any kind of melodic sequence! Not squawking is a bonus too.....
It sounds like you are a multi-instrumentalist, very flash :-) The Clarinet is the first wind instrument i've decided to learn (other than mucking around on recorders). So it is a steep learning curve, but it is a beautiful instrument and like you say it's fun to keep learning.
I hear the flute is harder to learn than the Clarinet. That would make it easier for you learning the Clarinet? $10,000 is a lot of money, but so nice to get a really good instrument though :-)
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-02-08 09:47
Hi Chris P
That is such a brilliant description, 'learning to walk on your hands', it just perfectly describes how i've been feeling, you've described it far better than I did. You are right it's such a familiar yet disjointed feeling learning a new instrument. It's my first wind instrument too, other than mucking around on various instruments, i've mainly learnt Piano and Guitar. It's a whole different ball game playing a wind instrument. Good to do though and fun. And love the Clarinet!
Regards
Susanne
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Author: Susanne
Date: 2016-02-08 10:30
Hi there Greg :-)
I am most definitely enjoying my 7214! I have a LeBlanc cleaning kit, so I can give it the care it deserves too. I always like to look after my instruments.
The mouthpieces that came with the Clarinet were a LeBlanc, which I imagine was the one that originally came with the Clarinet (as it doesn't have any other markings on it other than LeBlanc). It also came with a Buffet Crampon, which I suspect is the one that originally came with the step-up Clarinet the previous owner of my 7214 purchased.
I don't have much experience to make a comparison, but, I think I would want to get a new mouthpiece instead of sticking with the two that came with the Clarinet. From research so far, i've been thinking of getting a Vandoren 5RV or a 5RV Lyre, other than that I don't know of any other viable options. I imagine I would prefer a richer/darker tone that has depth rather than a light/bright one. And obviously a mouthpiece that is easy for a beginner to get air through it.
Thanks for the tip about the Vandoren V12's, I have tried the Traditional reeds and prefer them to the few Rico's I have tried. I'll order the V12's, and was thinking of trying the Gonzalez Classic and the GD's. I had also intended on getting the FOF's, but if they take a lot of air support, i'll wait for a bit to get them..... hehe
I can't find a place in NZ that stocks the Olivieri yet, I may have to order them from Australia.
I'm starting to feel like I nearly have my own personal set up on my Clarinet which is good. And in getting the 7214, I have a great foundation to build up from! I'd rather not make things hard for myself by sticking to a generic set up. Just trying out a few different reeds, I could see it made quite a difference to the tone and play-ability of my Clarinet. It helped with expression and creating dynamics, less squawking too.
Kindest Regards
Susanne
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-08 12:52
Interesting what you said re reeds. So far.. i can't tell the difference! But i could tell the difference of different ligature and different mouth pieces. I have only tried gondelez, vandoren and rico.
I wouldn't say flute is harder than clarinet. It needs less strength around the mouth, and it over blows at the octave - which is a lot more logical. I reckon it requires more embouchure adjustment to keep in tune. At least that has been my experience. I could explain that more, but probably not worth it here in a clarinet forum! haha.
I personally think the flute is the easiest woodwind. Recorder is easier in a way, but needs great concentration to get the effects using articulation alone...
Where flute is hard is being held to the side, it isn't "natural", and i am told, it is one of the worst instruments for the body for that reason. But i haven't seen research on that topic - so I am just quoting someone else!
But yes, I do have an advantage over you .. i am a woodwind player, and a recorder player. Being a recorder player is a big help, as I need to swap between an F and C instrument at a moments notice -- which is sort of like switching the registers in clarinet. Even though sometimes my brain slips up with those 2nd octave fingerings for that reason! so not perfect advantage!
The most important thing is to enjoy the journey of being a beginner again. It is really a stage i love. I love the journey from beginner to diploma. and the challenge of a new instrument! I guess that is my hobby.. i don't have any others...
All the best!
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