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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-01-12 07:27
Ok so I'm curious, now that the reserve has had time to be in the market for awhile, what is your opinion on it vs a Vandoren mouthpiece? I understand that they occupy slightly different sound spectrums, but what do you find yourself recommending these days?
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Author: Monsterchef
Date: 2016-01-12 13:33
I have both M13 and X0. X0 is a bit more smooth to play and reed friendly. Some reeds squeak ever so frequently on M13 but never on X0.
In terms of timbre, M13 has a much richer sound then X0, which is pure but not very colourful.
X0 has thicker side rails & tip rails. This feature probably contributes to its higher resistance compared to M13 at the same tip opening.
Having said this, I now have ditched them both and play a BD5.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-01-12 18:08
Finally, it all depends on how you want to sound. Both the Vandoren M13 and the Reserve X0 are designed to give a clear, concentrated sound with ping and projection. The M13 has a nice blend of darkness and ping, which would make many players (like Monsterchef and me) hear it as "richer" and more colorful. For me, the M13 usually plays well right out the box; the Reserve X0 needs some adjustment in the rails, tip, and upper baffle before it speaks as easily. When adjusted by a good tech, the X0 plays well but perhaps a little aggressively and tensely; the M13 lets you lay back more (if you have a good reed) and vary the timbre to suit the music.
The Reserve X0 has a wider dynamic range, with a bigger fortissimo than the M13.
Players who want a very dark, covered sound would naturally prefer something other than either an M13 or a Reserve. Some dark and covered designs are the Vandoren Black Diamond BD5, the Walter Grabner G11, the Clark Fobes Europa 2, some Nick Kuckmeier models and the Backun MoBa mouthpieces.
For the price, both M13 and Reserve X0 are good choices for many clarinetists, depending on their desired sound concept.
Post Edited (2016-01-12 18:33)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-01-12 18:20
I have never had an M13 but did play B45s for a long time until the Reserve came out. I'm a doubler and play the X10; great projection and a nice sound.
However, I have gone to a Borbeck 16 with VD 3.5 Traditional reeds and have found the right combo for me.
HRL
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-01-12 19:10
I would disagree that the M13 plays any richer than the X0 simply on the merit that the X0 is a bit inherently more resistant than the M13. I would assume that regardless of tip opening you would not play the same reed on both mouthpieces and expect them to play the same way. The side rail observations may be true some of the time. Even with precise machining you may find a M13 that has thicker or equal rails to the X0, and vice versa.
Furthermore the context of comparison is important- are we discussing the Reserve line vs. Vandoren in general, or choosing similar models?
Certainly there has been a great response to these mouthpieces, whether one is universally better than the other isn't really important. In many ways we have two totally different approaches to attempt to emulate the same model- the old Chedeville mouthpieces. Vandoren uses injection molding and was based on Donald Montanaro's Chedeville mouthpiece(s), among others, and the Reserve mouthpiece is milled out of solid rod and was based on Chedevilles as well.
If you really want to compare the two brands, my best guess would be to pit the following models against one another:
M13 Lyre-X0
M15- X5
5RV Lyre, M30 Lyre, M30- X10
The short answer for the last question would depend on the player and what they were looking for. For the more open mouthpieces I tend to prefer a M30 or a B40 Lyre. At the close facings it can be a toss up, so I would try to have a few of the M13 Lyre, M15, X0 and X5 to see what the player likes.
Post Edited (2016-01-20 18:52)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-01-12 20:43
I tried the Reserve for a time and while there were some good qualities, overall I did not like the resistance. I felt as if I could not get the ring I was looking for. It did not get crass sounding and was easy to focus, but I felt that was at the expense of freedom and color. I could not vary the colors as well as I would like and I felt a little constrained, as if I was having to work against the mouthpiece. Even with different reeds and adjustments, I never really felt I got what I was looking for.
I like the M13 lyre the best in that series. They vary a little in quality and some are a little dull sounding. Some do tend to play a little flat, especially in the throat range. A slightly shorter (1mm) barrel usually fixes that. Having a few to pick from will generally give one that really works well.
If I had to pick between the two, I would go with the Vandoren. While there are some issues, for me it is a little more workable. The Reserve feels as if it is not quite finished and needs a little more adjustment to really play to its full potential.
Part of it is how one approaches the clarinet and what one is looking for from the set up. I know some players who really like or benefit from a mouthpiece that reigns them in a little. I tend to like a mouthpiece with a little more freedom and I can temper it as needed with my choice of reed.
It is like two sides of a coin. I don't think there is any right answer. Over the years I have come to realize it is not which is the better mouthpiece, but which is the better mouthpiece *for me*. I have heard and played with players who sound terrific on something that I would not like at all, but it works for that person.
Post Edited (2016-01-12 23:55)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-01-15 07:48
I play the Reserve, mostly X5 but like the recent X0 also very much. The biggest problem I have with Vandorens is pitch. Before the Reserve existed I told students to buy M13s or M15s, but always disliked their tendency to sag in the throat register. Reserves have a smaller chamber and bore, like vintage mouthpieces, and ring in tune much better. I don't find them particularly resistant, but I do find them to be very efficient. The note starts easily, but there's a cushion of resistance to support f and ff, you get back what you put in. It's true that I'm a D'Addario "artist," but it's also true that I bought a BUNCH of them at full price with my own money before that happened.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-01-17 07:32
There is a new Reserve mouthpiece and it's quite phenomenal! When I was testing out the new Reserve X0 the mouthpiece was able to get to the altissimo notes to just naturally focused itself! It also stays well in tune.
I know Dan Sagi was playing on one of them in his concert and was able to play a G6 PP without any effort (I believe he was playing La Tosca.) He also said that he was also able to play a C7(?) like it was nothing (this wasn't in La Tosca of course, haha.) Mind you this is the NEW Reserve X0.
I tried the new X0 also and absolutely loved it and wanted to buy it ON the spot, but Dan only had one, sadly. Like I said before when I tried it once and when I got to the altissimo notes I felt like I didn't even have to try to focus them, if anything it get EVEN more focused. Some other nice things about the newer version, compared to the older model, is that:
1. Less edge
2. Less bright
3. More depth to the sound
I've also tried the other newer models like the X10 and X5. Didn't like them as much, but that's because my reeds weren't the right strength.
I use to have a couple of Vandoren mouthpieces and I still currently own the CL6. I really LOVE the CL6, but the one I have is tuned at 442, so what ends up happening and I ride VERY sharp; so it's a bit of a hassle because I have to pull out A LOT and even then I'm not in tune. Though right now I am using Hawkins B Model mouthpiece and I'm loving it.
I've tried the Vandoren Black Diamond and thought it was eh... Wasn't super impressed by it. If I had a pick between the new X0 or the BD the X0 would be the OBVIOUS winner.
Post Edited (2016-01-17 07:46)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-01-17 07:59
I agree with the earlier posting by J Howell that the Reserve X0 has a stronger fortissimo and better throat register tuning than the Vandoren M13, but I like the more relaxed and perhaps darker and more malleable sound of the Vandoren M13.
Now if there is a new Reserve that is less edgy, less bright, and deeper than the old Reserve, you can bet I will want to try it! Agomongo, how is the new Reserve packaged and advertised? Is it presented as a new model? Does it have the same name? How do you tell by apprearance that you've got a new one and not an old one? Is the price still under $100.00 and where can you buy one?
Post Edited (2016-01-18 03:17)
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-01-17 10:39
I auditioned an X0 for a bit and used it in orchestra rehearsal. I kept getting the "give me more wave" from the conductor. Didn't seem to project very well, and overall lacked a certain "presence" to the sound (IMO). It was a pretty sound though. I ended up giving it away. My first Vandoren mouthpiece was an m13 and the first day I played it (I was in highschool) a color guard member who was listening yelled "that sounds beautiful!". Just my experience with them. I've now moved on from the M13.
Fernando
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-01-18 01:15
@seabreeze
For some reason I can't quote your message.
Anyway! I believe the new Reserve box is packaged with the color green. The old one had black. It has the same name and the same appearance. So to be honest D'Addario did a horrible job, because the mouthpiece IS better but for some reason made it harder to distinguish between which one is the new model and which is the older model, other than by looking at the color on the box.
I know O Di Bella has ordered some shipments of them, but I don't know if they came in or not. You should probably email Dan about it. I think the $100 price tag is the same.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2016-01-20 20:55
When I recently switched a student from an M13 to a Reserve X5 the improvement on sound was palpable!
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2016-01-21 08:22
I can't get a good sound on my X0 without using a 3.5 reed. It was not helping me on notes above altissimo D. I can play it all day with a #3 but don't really like the sound. I used the the Rico for a few practices but felt the tone was shaky. It has a nice ease to it if you go with a light reed but its still not secure on the highest notes for me. The m30 is very stable and I use it for concerts where I am on the spot and out there needing a tuned predictable sound. But the m30 requires a lot of emboucher shaping to get that good sound. I find the m13 a lot easier with a 3.5. Unfortunately I just put the m13 on and am observing it for my next practice and can't remember its characteristics other than it blows easy with the 3.5 and seems to hold together on up to the high G. the M13 has a wider tip opening than the m30. Sorry if this is confusing but that's how I see it and how I'm going to roll at present. I'm going to use my m13 for a while now and put the Rico on the shelf.
Post Edited (2016-01-21 08:26)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-01-21 17:58
Just to keep the numbers straight, Vandoren says that its M13 clarinet mouthpiece tip opening is 1.005 mm (usually considered a close facing) and its M30 tip opening is 1.15 mm (usually considered medium open). The numbers on any mouthpiece sample of course can vary, but mouthpiece techs who measure them would say that the M30 pieces are always more open than the M13.
Post Edited (2016-01-21 22:09)
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2016-01-21 20:27
From looking at both, (M30 vs M13) the tip openings are about the same with the 30 being closer. The main thing I found was the curve of the M13 is more abrupt and ends quicker than the 30. The chamber is also more open in volume so the air gets big real fast. With the long slight curve of the M30, it is a more compressed sound and has room for a softer reed. I'm going to try the M13 for a while with some kind of 3.5; either Vandoren or Rico Evolution. I hope to get a better mouthpiece and leave Vandoren. I don't think the Rico is going to work for me because of the difficulty I'm having with it in the altissimo.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-01-22 04:54
MoonPatrol wrote:
> From looking at both, (M30 vs M13) the tip openings are about
> the same with the 30 being closer. The main thing I found was
> the curve of the M13 is more abrupt and ends quicker than the
> 30.
You really can't eyeball those measurements very accurately. The M13, according to Vandoren's own chart, has a tip opening of 1.005 mm. The M30 has a tip opening of 1.15 mm. A 0.04 mm difference will make a real difference in the mouthpiece's response holding other parameters equal. M13 and M30 both have what VD designates as Long facings (about 19 mm from first opening to tip. VD doesn't give any other information about how the curve gets from closed to its tip opening, and a difference there could make a meaningful difference in response, but again you'd need something more accurate than visual inspection to compare the curves meaningfully.
Chamber shape can affect the response, but the whole Series 13 features larger chambers than the traditional Vandorens, meant both to "darken" the tone and lower the pitch.
All of which makes reed choice a little subjective, but theoretically the M30 should take a slightly softer reed than the M13. Compare both to a B45, which has an even more open tip (1.195 mm) and a medium-long curve (which I take to mean around 18 mm) and the reed strength needed goes down even more - more open tip, shorter length.
And, given all of this, the reed strength you choose still depends on how much remodeling you want to to the reeds as they come off the shelf.
Karl
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2016-01-22 21:44
After trying the M13 at a band practice, I liked the tone a lot but I could not get the high F to sound on command. Even with a hard reed like a 3.5 it won't sound without time to find and settle the F. I am going to shelve the M13 and go back to my Ridenour which sounds like 'sunshine' and although resistant I can hit the high F even with a #3. I also use his barrel with it. As long as I keep my lip in shape I can play this mouthpiece. It is not real expressive like the M13, whose high notes really ring out. But getting back to the Rico Select XO, I can't make sense out of it. It is good at somethings but not all. I need something that can play all the way up to the G, and still have air left. I would go with either Vandoren 13 or 30 over the Rico. At least I can control those. Only problem like I said, the High F is not working on the m13. And I know everyone might try and say its me and not the mouthpiece, but the Ridenour lets me have it and If I recall the M30 too. So I would use the M13 on music that doesn't require the high altitude notes. But how often is that the case? Maybe church music. One thing I have learned is that the Vandoren is where I'm going to be looking and not the Rico.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-01-22 23:08
MoonPatrol wrote:
> It is not real expressive like the M13, whose high
> notes really ring out. ...
> It [X0] is good at somethings but not all. I need something that can play all the way up to the G, and still have air left.
Glenn, the problem is that the mouthpiece doesn't do the playing - you do. The mouthpiece isn't the source of expressiveness, the player is. The mouthpiece doesn't play up to G, you do. All of these various mouthpieces may make some things easier for *you* to do and other things perhaps harder. But all of them will do the things you've mentioned if your technical approach to producing tone on them is sound (no pun intended). If your experiences on these mouthpieces vary so wildly, you should probably step back and, preferably with a teacher who knows the clarinet well, figure out what you need to change in your technique that will let you do what you want to do on any mouthpiece (with an appropriate reed).
Karl
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-01-24 17:57
Without intending to anger or insult anyone, but here goes:
Why do so many accept D'addario or Vandoren mouthpieces as the standard? I find that almost every one that I have tried is not good. Machine-made cranked-out by the hundreds, there is no thought of finishing. Now, I know for the price, you will get some type of value with these mouthpieces. They are "close" to a good-to-great mouthpiece.
If it is price - here is a thought - How about a machine-made high-volume mouthpiece that gets the extra step? Walt Grabner's "1st Chair" Student Mouthpiece. Yes, a mouthpiece very much like the praised and adored Vandoren or Reserve mouthpieces, but - all hand finished! For $68.00 (US).
No, I do not play these, but I trust Walt Grabner. I play his Professional mouthpieces, as well as several other Pro model mouthpieces.
http://www.clarinetxpress.com/firstchair.html
I bet these will blow you Vandoren/Reserve folks away!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: efsf081
Date: 2016-01-25 06:41
What is "all hand finished!" mean? Is it mean hand finished from a blank? If it is, Vandoren is the same.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-01-25 07:04
The Vandoren and Reserve mouthpieces come off their "finishing machine" and go into a box, to the store then to you.
Hand finishing is when an artisan play tests and makes actual adjustments to the mouthpiece. Fine-tuning, so to speak.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: efsf081
Date: 2016-01-25 09:44
Are you sure?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_MOpimkX9k
Check 8:30 of this video.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-01-25 10:11
Vandorens are hand-finished in house according to preset specifications.
Vandoren remains the market standard because truly they work. If they didn't work the vast majority of discerning professionals would not be playing them, yet we have many that do. I'm sure every single one of Vandoren's artists on their roster and many that are not listed on the roster have had ample opportunity to try several of the hand-finished models on the market, as well as the Moba mouthpieces which to my knowledge are completely machine-made as well.
I'm sure some Vandoren players might be allured by a Reserve, or vice versa, and some Vandoren and Reserve players might be allured by a custom model. But we chose these mouthpieces for a reason.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-01-26 02:56
I think that there are probably many reasons why people play the commercial mouthpieces. For some it is price, for some it is because they are widely available. They also come in a wide variety of flavors, so most can find something they like. They are not always the most consistent, but if you try a few you can usually find something that is to your liking.
Last I knew, Vandoren does some scraping and such to the mouthpiece, but I do not believe that someone is sitting and play testing, tweaking, testing, tweaking to optimize the various characteristics. A number of the people who hand finish mouthpieces will take considerable time, sometimes over days, to get things just right. A custom maker will also tweak if you need something a little different to fit your likes and style. That is certainly one of the reasons you pay a premium for a hand finished mouthpiece.
Some people have suits custom made, some buy a stock suit and have it altered, some buy one off the rack. Whatever works, because in the end, it is about making music.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-02-24 04:24
The BD5 Vandoren is actually a very fine piece provided you have the pitch issue with your clarinet worked out....I have the !3 series and play dead on on every note with a Yamaha CSG. I think the reluctance of the clarinet community to try something different is evident at times. Projection is very good and the timbre is very stabie with this facing. In fact..I would go as far to say as stable as a crystal mouthpiece in response and eveness of scale. (but without the pain of playing a crystal facing)
Marcellus had his facings tweaked a good deal by the Kaspar people..wonder just how close this is as the curve as I measured really does taper fast about one third of the way from the window opening at the tip. I think this is an excellent idea ... it allows for the facing to respond evenly to air pressure at all dynamics.
In many ways this is half way between a Kaspar 13 and a Viotto B3...my hats off to Vandoren in finding a compromise between projection and eveness of scale.
David Dow
Post Edited (2016-02-24 04:26)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-02-26 07:37
What I think would give the Reserves the edge over the Vandoren for some people would be:
1. Choice of manufacturing (as in, the accuracy of chamber execution).
2. Accuracy in rail thicknesses and facing accuracy.
3. Slightly higher tuning so throat notes aren't as easily swayed.
It's really a toss up between an X0 and a M13 Lyre, honestly. I agree pitch can be a problem with Vandorens in the throat register, as mentioned in previous postings.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-02-26 08:26
I bought a reserve X5 and found it to be too resistant for me, but after I reduced the width of the tip rail by 50% I found the resistance was much reduced and it became easier to play with no detrimental changes to tone or articulation.
Tony F.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-02-01 14:57
D'Addario, like the Vandoren mouthpieces need to be tried in many of the same model. Currently Looking for something, either Vandoren or D'Addario, compatible with V12 #3.
Post Edited (2024-07-17 18:59)
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