 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2016-01-21 20:59
I understand that "best practices" states in 'clarinet-land' you leave your barrels on your two horns and just swap out the mouthpiece for instrument changes. In the real world, this practice has always been a dismal failure for me. All the cork-grease and ligature tightening cannot prevent catastrophic reed movement. [I'm using a Brad Behn mthpc, Ishimori Lig, and Leuthner reed. But I had the same problem when I was using my Fobes, Optimum.]
I'm over my cardinal sin of grabbing the 'barrel and all' for horn swaps. But I'd love any suggestions that would help me just remove my mouthpiece for intonation purposes. What piece of the puzzle am I missing for a smooth transition?
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-01-21 21:02
The simple fix for me was to purchase a "cloned" pair of mouthpieces from Clark Fobes. Done!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2016-01-21 21:44
Are you switching your reed each time?
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-01-21 21:49
No, why? Things stay ready. Never an issue.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-01-21 23:49
Not all makes of clarinet require different barrels for Bb and A clarinets, and for those makes that do recommend different barrels there are plenty of players, including good pros, who find that they can happily make the same barrel work equally well on both Bb and A instruments.
Why Buffet for instance use different length on some Bb and A models (it's only 1mm) beats me. They could easily have adjusted the length of the top joint to allow for same length barrels. And no I don't believe that a 1mm lengthening/shortening of the top joint would have any discernable effect on the accoustic result.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2016-01-22 00:55
As with many things clarinet, opinions are divided on this, and to some extent the "right" answer will depend on your instrument and your choice of barrels. Whichever side you take, there will always be others who brand you a dangerous heretic! For me there are clear advantages in swapping both barrel and mouthpiece. First and foremost, there's much less risk of displacing your reed in a quick changeover. Secondly, there should be at least some benefit from a warmed-up barrel when you swap to a colder instrument. Provided you have a barrel that's generally in tune on both instruments when slightly pulled out (i.e. leaving some room for adjustment in both directions) all should be well. You'll soon learn where to position the barrel to stay in tune when you make the swap, and over time how to nuance it to account for temperature differences between the two instruments.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-01-22 01:12
Norman: I completely agree that it's nuts for Buffet to have different length barrels (mainly: for some reason they managed to avoid this with the Divine - how/why just this model?).
I'm in the camp who believes that it's safer to use a single barrel if possible, and I'm not really convinced that the A & Bb barrels have a difference that's significant compared to the difference in response between different examples of supposedly identical barrels (the best-sounding barrel I ever found for my R13 Bb claims to be for an A).
I did go through quite a long period of being seriously tempted to have my A clarinet shortened, but in the end I wimped out and got a tuning ring to fill the gap left by using a shorter barrel on the Bb - not just because there would be no going back if it didn't work, but also because it would affect the resale value. But I'd be fascinated to know if anyone out there has ever done this shortening, and what the result was.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-01-22 01:33
The R13 barrels are internally different from A to Bb. The A is a slightly smaller bore with a different taper.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-01-22 03:10
If you're having trouble moving the mouthpiece from one barrel socket to another despite loading on the cork grease, maybe your mouthpiece tenon is too tight a fit for one or both of the barrels. You can have a repairman adjust the fit. You can do it yourself, but without a lathe it's a slower process.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-01-22 04:02
If you really want to just swtich the mouthpiece, a metal ligature isn't the best. A ligature like the rovner dark or MKIII will work much better for keeping the reed in place while grasping the mouthpiece and twisting.
You can also slightly roughen the sides of the mouthpiece for more grip (lightly sand it so it's just not as smooth). Or, since I don't like sanding mouthpieces, apply a mouthpiece patch or small piece of electrical tape on the mouthpiece where the ligature would touch it (usually where the emblem or make/model of mouthpiece would be). This is a much grippier surface for the ligature to squeeze into so it won't slip when you twist it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2016-01-22 06:19
I switch both barrel and mouthpiece on my clarinets, and have no pitch issues with them using the same barrel (Yamaha CSV's and Backun barrel). The only time that switch only the mouthpiece is when I'm playing C clarinet in addition to B-flat and A. For that, I have a second Fatboy barrel that I use, and I'm usually OK with switches. I've had better luck with the Optimum ligature that I currently use than I did with my Rovner Dark.
If you have no intonation problems using the same barrel, then I see no downside to it!
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-01-22 08:50
For me the Mark III held the reed on poorly when taking the mouthpiece off, and mine had the rough side on the outside. A metal ligature holding the reed firmly should have no problem holding the reed on securely when taking the mouthpiece off.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-01-24 19:07
Using two mouthpieces and reeds is not tha answer. No two MP are exactly alike and it's a reed nightmare. A single barrel my work but it's true that there's a difference in length and more important, bore size, which can make a big difference in intonation when switching. The trick is to have the cork lose enough to come off the barrel easily but tight enough so there's no leak or movement. Putting grease on the inside of the top barrel joint helps too. I've always used a Rovner for years, different models now and then, and never had that problem because I keep the ligature snug but I've known players that use different ones, even a string ligature, and not have that problems. I can't show it here but there's a way to grasp the ligature by the back of the mouthpiece without moving the ligature. But still, the real answer is not having a "tight" cork and well greased cork and or barrel upper joint.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-01-26 18:21
There is no simple answer here. Some pairs of clarinets will allow you to use the same barrel on both, some will not. It is true that an A barrel usually has a slightly smaller bore than a Bb barrel. That does NOT means, necessarily, that it cannot be used on a Bb. When I have had the choice, I have always moved the A barrel over to the Bb. I have had less luck using a Bb barrel on an A clarinet.
For myself, I am using a pair or Toscas that are quite happy with the same barrel, and the barrel I am using (cocobolo) is an after market barrel. I find it a little more warmer sounding than the barrels that came with the clarinets.
I like the security of moving the barrel with the mouthpiece, and I like the fact that the clarinet I am switching to is a little bit more warmed up when I start to play it.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New and Used Buffet Clarinets
Clarinet mouthpieces
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-01-26 19:11
Well, I always find Mr Grabner's advice to be golden! I personally will review my methods.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-01-26 21:35
Grabnerwg wrote:
> When I have had the choice, I have always
> moved the A barrel over to the Bb. I have had less luck using a
> Bb barrel on an A clarinet.
>
I was interested and a little surprised several years ago, when I arranged a trial of some Backun barrels, that he doesn't (or didn't) designated them for Bb or A. And the bores were indeed all different so that it would have been hard to identify a Bb bore or an A bore among them.
Walter, I, too, very much respect your opinions about barrel and mouthpiece design. So, I want to ask:
Is your preference for using your A barrel on a Bb rather than using the Bb on the A clarinet specific to Buffet clarinets? Do you know if the relationship between A and Bb barrels is the same for other brands? I'm also wondering if barrel makers (the clarinet kind) are consistent about making their A barrels tighter than their Bb barrels. How hopelessly random does this issue of barrel bore sizes (and shapes) become, in your opinion, or is there some consistency among barrel manufacturers?
In the end, what should the relationship be (ideally) between the bore of a barrel and of the clarinet's top joint? Does measuring the bore at the entry to the top section give any guidance as to the best exit bore of the barrel (not to mention the entry bore of a reverse taper)?
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-01-26 22:56
I agree with Walter. When I was still using both my Buffets, A and Bb, I bought a Backun barrel for my A clarinet and discovered it played just as well in tune on my A clarinet. A few years later while trying some more of his barrels I liked one even better for my Bb so I used a separate on for both, but either one worked equally well on both if necessary. It depends on the clarinet, barrel and mouthpiece.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2016-01-27 03:57
I agree with what Walter Grabner and Ed Palanker said.
Sometimes a Bb barrel WILL work on an A-clarinet, but this is a rare exception. (I know of a player in a major orch. who can do this with a specific barrel, made by an artisan of yesteryear. When the original rings fell off, the player left them off)
On Buffet type instruments, the A-barrel has different internal dimensions, as well as usually being a mm. shorter.
Some Selmer models have the same bore for the A and Bb, but again the lengths tend to be different.
If you can use the same barrel on your A and Bb instrument....lucky you.
Disclaimer...I make and sell custom barrels.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-01-27 05:01
So, Allan (or anyone else who is knowledgeable about this), my original barrels for my 10G Bb and A have the same exit bore, but the A barrel is a little tighter at the entrance - it's hard to know how much smaller because I only have one of the taper gauges with lines but no numbers on it. Of course, the A barrel is 65mm and the Bb is 66mm. I've been experimenting with them tonight and am finding that they're practically interchangeable on my Bb with two differences: I have to pull the shorter barrel out farther on my Bb than on my A (expected) and the altissimo notes feel just a pinch less stable with the A barrel (shorter with a tighter entry). The taper, by the way, as I think Selmer designed them, is not as much as a standard Moennig/Buffert barrel.
What effect, if any, would the difference in bore, theoretically, be expected to cause in the response or other characteristics of the two barrels?
BTW - tangentially, is there a way to get reasonably accurate numeric measurements from the taper gauge? Do the lines represent a standard difference in width from each to the next? I suppose maybe measuring the gauge at each line (or at the places where the taper stops as it enters the bore) with a vernier caliper would give me something close, but the jaws of the caliper have enough thickness that I'm not sure it wouldn't compromise the measurement.
Karl
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2016-01-27 06:24
Attachment: Internal caliper small jpg.jpg (14k)
Attachment: tosca variety aug 2014 2.jpg (199k)
The 10G in A would indeed have a slightly narrower barrel bore than the Bb, and also it would exhibit a taper.
If the bore is slightly oval in shape ( a common finding), A round plunger gauge will read the narrowest axis that it encounters, ignoring the space left around the gauge's circumference where the bore has a wider gap.
This would yield a falsely narrower reading. Actually, the AREA of the bore at a given point, perpendicular to the long axis, would be the most accurate measurement.
Picture #1 shows such a gauge (West German digital model...very expensive) and Pic #2 shows one inserted into a barrel. The round brass ring is a standard 0.500" to which the gauge is "set" (it is actually termed a comparator) The other item is a depth gauge for the sockets.
A two-point gauge is needed to get the real story....and this is done by turning it to measure the bore as it is rotated. Obtaining many measurements would yield a 3D look at the bore, showing HOW it narrows, if tapered, but that is a whole 'nother can of vermicelli.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2016-01-27 06:36)
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