 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-01-21 07:23
Ok... so I'm in a state of curiosity right now.
I've seen many people say to "use the reed that plays easiest/allows you to make musical decisions" everywhere, among other claims about how to select a reed. Marc Nuccio states that he finds that edge of brightness brings clarity, focus, and power to the sound (Not necessarily getting rid of darkness).
Now that's all fine and dandy, but it brings more confusion to me personally due to some of my own experiences as a growing player. I've always been a closed mouthpiece kind of guy since I picked up an M13 Lyre. I have strayed off course here and there to try other mouthpiece styles, but end up coming back to my good old closed mouthpieces. My problem is that I seem to be among the minority when it comes to reed selection on these mouthpieces. I know a vast majority of players play on reeds strength 3.75-4.5 on mouthpieces like the M13 and X0, yet no matter what I do, I can never seem to get ANYTHING above a 3.75 to work. I can't quite seem to find what I'm doing "wrong" (If I am). Now the 3.5's work quite well and sound quite good but it's always been strange to me that I can never get 3.75's to just... play.
So I guess the question in the end is, what should I do? Continue on my path and stick with the 3.5 on my mouthpiece, or push up to reach what is almost consistently agreed to be required for the mouthpiece to sound good?
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Author: pewd
Date: 2016-01-21 07:53
> 3.5's work quite well and sound quite good
so don't change anything. go practice and stop worrying about it. if you sound good with your current set up, leave it alone.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-01-21 08:52
Don't get too hung up on higher reed strengths. Too many players seem to regard reed hardness as a sort of pissing contest, and sometimes their sound suffers because of this. The best reed is the one that works best for YOU. I have an XO, and while it is not my favourite mouthpiece, for me it works perfectly well on a Rico3, so that's what I use. If you really want to go to a harder reed and you can't make your mouthpiece work with it, then perhaps that is not the right reed/mouthpiece choice for you.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-21 17:47
I have to admit I find the line of inquiry and the way it is posed particularly frustrating.
There seems to be a percentage of students who have gotten the idea that higher reed strengths equal a more advanced stage of play.
Let me throw this out there for you.
Advanced, top, German clarinet players use a very VERY closed mouthpiece (.85mm tip opening as an indicator) with a 2 1/2 strength reed. And that 2 1/2 strength reed DOES line up with what we call 2 1/2.
Now back to the US. I have been more of a "biter" (for lack of a better term) and wish that I could have used 3s or 3 1/2s on the standard mouthpieces we use here (I use to use the M13 as one of my favorites).
One clear sign of a professional player (out of many), is the ability to play for great lengths of time with little or no fatigue. I would suggest to you that you are most fortunate to get great results from your 3 1/2 strength reed.
The main goal post for proving your worth is winning auditions. I'd concentrate on that.
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-01-21 18:41
Sorry that the OP was confusingly written... I myself am confused.
If say the M13 worked best with a 3.5 reed and allowed more endurance, how come we get proffesionals even going up to 4.5's? Are they biting like a mad man? Do people that play 4's bite?
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2016-01-21 19:11
This has been something I've struggled with as long as I've played the clarinet (only 1.5-2 years yet).
My view on this:
With more biting (embouchure pressure) OR with more air, I can achieve rather similar results on a stronger reed compared to a softer reed.
However, using a soft reed to much sometimes has the effect on me that I use less air, because the "lowest limit of sound" requires much less air.
This is a bad habit I believe. Playing bass clarinet from time to time, or using stronger reeds, can perhaps train me to use more air than seems "necessary" even on a softer reed.
Also, I constantly get frustrated with practicing in small spaces with stronger reeds, since the airiness of the reed is more noticeable.
In larger spaces, specially when playing with others, I've mostly used stronger reeds because it "feels like I'm projecting more". It is also because I am not afraid to use as much air as I can physically push in situations with tutti orchestra and a few "f".
I am now trying to gravitate towards softer reeds in all situations, which I hope will work out OK for me.
Regards
Peter
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-01-21 19:37
Exiawolf wrote:
> If say the M13 worked best with a 3.5 reed and allowed more
> endurance, how come we get professionals even going up to
> 4.5's? Are they biting like a mad man? Do people that play 4's
> bite?
First, to restate an observation about reed strength designations - they aren't in themselves an objective measurement of anything. You really need to talk about a reed's strength and brand/model together to come close to using the number descriptively. I'm assuming you're talking about a Vandoren #3.5 and #3.75 (3.5+), either v.12 or 56 Rue lepic.
Players who use harder reeds may be "biting like mad," but in many cases, they are adjusting the harder reed almost as a partially finished blank, making a reed that is more comfortable (without biting) than the softer strength out of the box. The goal is - or should be - comfort while producing musical sound that is in control and in tune. Vandoren's recommendation for the M13, which has a long curve as well as a close tip opening, starts with #3-1/2 for all their models on the M13.
If you feel good playing #3.5 and don't feel comfortable with a #3.5+, then play on a #3.5.
Karl
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2016-01-21 20:34
If the reed is too hard, I have trouble getting enough air. This can suck when you are constantly rationing your supply to get through passages. I go with the hardest reed I can fathom but still not have to get red in the face to achieve. I have seen players get real red from all the resistance which ruins the fun of music if you have to suffer like that.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-01-21 20:48
As a "mouthpiece guy", I have to chime in here.
It is important to remember that "correct" reed strength and a specific facing go hand in hand. As an example, with a mouthpiece where you are comfortable with a 3.5, a 5 will just not work well. However, take that same number 5 reed and put it on a different facing, and it can play quite well and require no biting.
In my opinion, too much attention is paid to tip opening and not enough to facing length. Both are critical in determining the proper strength of reed to use.
Here is a little table I wrote up to help explain, in the simplest terms, what I am talking about.
Regarding the tip opening:
1. A more open tip requires a “softer” reed.
2. A closer tip requires a “harder” reed.
Regarding the facing length:
1. A shorter facing length requires a “softer” reed.
2. A longer facing length requires a “harder” reed.
These two factors work together in this way:
1. A close tip and a long facing length would require the “hardest” reed.
2. An open tip and a short facing length would require the “softest” reed.
It is amazing how much confusion there is over this.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
World Class Clarinet Mouthpieces
New and Used Buffet Clarinets
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-21 23:48
Dear Mr. Grabner,
I am glad to see you join the fray (maybe).
My input at this point may only serve to muddle the issue because German facings are much longer and much less open. For example I am playing on a Wurlitzer mouthpiece M3 with a tip opening of .83mm (compare to the typical French/American small tip opening of 1.06mm). The length of the M3 facing is 24.9mm (whereas the standard French facing is around 17.5mm or so). And as stated above the correct reed strength for this is 2 1/2 (Vandoren White Master "Traditional" work great).
As for French/American facings, I have worked out a rather "physical approach" that is not uncommon but I would add somewhat unnecessary too.
I don't understand why anyone says that SOMETHING WORKS, and then proceeds to basically say in the same breath......."So how can I screw this up?"
What anyone else does or how they do it doesn't matter if you are playing great. Maria Callas did not fret because she didn't sing like Jose Carreras.
Lastly, I do NOT find that there IS any conservation of air with respect to lower reed strength. The point is you need to expel JUST AS MUCH air to produce a good sound no matter what the reed's strength is.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-01-22 04:34
Quote:
I don't understand why anyone says that SOMETHING WORKS, and then proceeds to basically say in the same breath......."So how can I screw this up?" Amen! So much of that (guilty of it myself in the past as well!)Quote:
Regarding the tip opening:
1. A more open tip requires a “softer” reed.
2. A closer tip requires a “harder” reed.
Regarding the facing length:
1. A shorter facing length requires a “softer” reed.
2. A longer facing length requires a “harder” reed.
These two factors work together in this way:
1. A close tip and a long facing length would require the “hardest” reed.
2. An open tip and a short facing length would require the “softest” reed. Funny. I just looked at your website today and was checking out that table.
Yes. In a nutshell, try too soft a reed on a close tip, long facing mouthpiece, and the tendency will be for it to close off and limit the amount of air you can push through the clarinet before it closes off. Try too hard a reed on an open tip, short facing mouthpiece, and the tendency will be a very airy sound, with lots of embouchure pressure required to play with a full sound (the embouchure pressure essentially pushing hard enough to basically close the tip up and not leave it open). But "too soft" or "too hard" doesn't have an absolute number because it depends on factors of YOUR embouchure. How much pressure? How much mouthpiece do you take in? Where are your top teeth in relation to your bottom on the mouthpiece? Do you tongue heavily, or are you a light tonguer? THese things DO factor in to reed size.
However I tend to use slightly lighter reeds than what is generally "recommended" by manufacturers, and use VERY little embouchure pressure. I find this gives me the greatest endurance and flexibility to produce different tones.
The thing is, most people use embouchure pressure. Most people, bite to a certain extent. It's almost impossible not to. You may use a lot less embouchure pressure, and so your reed is less likely to close off.
I'm browsing a book called "more clarinet secrets" by Michele gingras, and in that book she suggests practicing with softer reeds. She even goes so far as to say, "with patience, your embouchure and airflow will adjust, and eventually you might even wonder why you ever played on harder reeds"
I don't want to have to work to play the clarinet. My philosophy is playing shouldn't be a chore, it shouldn't be hard, and shouldn't require tension anywhere in my body (embouchure included). I practiced double lip embouchure to force myself NOT to bite. Turns out with double lip embouchure, I needed a much softer reed to keep my upper teeth from hurting my upper lip. Then, after figuring out what reed I could use for double lip, I made sure it was light enough to play a low E at pppp into niente without hearing any extraneous air as I faded out, and not hurting my lip due to increased pressure to stop the "airy" sound while keeping the E tone playing audibly into nothingness.
Then I left that size reed on and switched back to conventional and learned to decrease pressure so I could play everything with a full tone.
For me, that results with a 3.5 or 3.5+ reed on a VERY close tip, medium-long to long facing mouthpiece. (mouthpieces that manufacterers recommend a 4 - 4.5) Any harder, and while I could play it, it would require more embouchure pressure which adds more tension and would tire me out quicker.
Quote:
Marc Nuccio states that he finds that edge of brightness brings clarity, focus, and power to the sound (Not necessarily getting rid of darkness). His ideas on reed strength were also an influence on me as when I heard him talk about it, he talked about harder reeds leading him to fatigue quicker and he simply felt there was no reason to do that.Quote:
I know a vast majority of players play on reeds strength 3.75-4.5 on mouthpieces like the M13 and X0, yet no matter what I do, I can never seem to get ANYTHING above a 3.75 to work. ......Now the 3.5's work quite well and sound quite good but it's always been strange to me that I can never get 3.75's to just... play..... So I guess the question in the end is, what should I do? Continue on my path and stick with the 3.5 on my mouthpiece, or push up to reach what is almost consistently agreed to be required for the mouthpiece to sound good? Quote:
Don't sweat it. If 3.5s work for you and you sound quite good, and 3.75s don't, then play 3.5's. If the vast majority of players play buffet R13s and you sound quite good on a Yamaha 650, play your Yamaha 650. If the vast majority of players play vandoren V12 reeds and you sound quite good on your rico reserves, play rico reserves. Do what works FOR YOU.
I play what I play. I like the way I sound. People around me like the way I sound. And I primarily play an unconventional clarinet, with a mouthpiece that isn't mass manufactured, with a light reed, and with my clarinet bell supported by my knee and sticking probably much further forward that what is generally taught at universities and conservatories, and tilted to the side with my legs out in front of me, ankles crossed. But it works for me.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2016-01-25 07:38
My Eb and bass clarinet mouthpieces have relatively close tip openings (Fobes San Francisco and Fobes Debut, respectively) and I play lighter reeds on them. Legere 2.5 on the Eb and either a Legere 2.25 or Legere Signature 2.5 on the Debut. Based on mouthpiece specs, I "should" be playing on harder reeds, but these work well for me, so these are what I use.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Geronimo
Date: 2016-01-25 11:22
Exiawolf,
I hope to add my input with out stepping on anyone's toes (which I see is impossible)
At the recommendation of my teacher I switched to a Vandoren M15 while we work on basics. I discovered that I did not care for it at all and needed new reeds to work with it. With harder reeds I was able to get more control and a sound closer to what I want.
However I chose to go up reed strengths because it sounded like a kazoo on softer reeds. If this is not an issue for you, stick with what you have. Feel free to experiment, but if 3 1/2 works for you, there's no issue with that
-Geronimo
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-01-25 22:11
The essence:
Is there something wrong that on my setup I play weaker reeds than others?
No. Play what you're comfortable with. This is NOT (NOT!!!) one of those situations where you have asked a question similar to the following:
"I play with the reed closer to the sky, yet others with my setup play with it closer to the ground. What should I do..rotate the mouthpiece?"
BTW: the Nuccio quote that I remember--while I seek to find it on Youtube--and otherwise believe in, is, "play on the weakest reeds that don't otherwise compromise your artistry."
Yes--mouthpiece makers have reed strength recommendations that factor in mouthpiece tip opening, facing length and curvature, rail width, mouthpiece materials, etc. Use them as guidelines--not justifications to, for example, herniate mouth muscles playing reeds that feel to you as responsive as popsicle sticks.
Reed strength doesn't alone speak to player proficiency--much that years of play may strengthen bite.
A search of the Nuccio quote here, sadly, proves recursive.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-01-25 23:03
I'd like to enter the fray here, just with a few thoughts:
I have an X0 and a M13 Lyre. The Vandoren is what I normally use and the X0 is my go-to backup. They play close to each other, close enough that I could use a slightly softer reed on the X0 than the M13 Lyre, but only a .25 strength.
To my knowledge the M13 Lyre and X0 have similar facings, with the X0 being slightly more close. HOWEVER, my observation is that with just about every X0 and M13 Lyre, the X0 is almost always more resistant. I can play V12 4's with the M13 Lyre comfortably but would need a 3.5+worked down to work on the X0.
Are you far off from the norm? No. A search of the Vandoren artist videos reveals that Burt Hara uses 3.5 strength in the blue box, and Dan Gilbert used 3.5+ V12s on the M13 Lyre (although he plays the M15 these days). The facing isn't too long on this mouthpiece so I think that gives you a good bit of wiggle room.
I wouldn't necessarily compare this facing and what people use with it to German facings since that would be another case of apples and oranges frankly. . But don't be discouraged by playing a 3.5+ reed or even a 3.5 reed with this mouthpiece. It may offer you the flexibility you need. For me, I like to have a bit more strength in the reed but just play what plays!
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-01-25 23:32
My friend is a performer and she uses a 3.5, when she tried my mouth piece woith a 2 reed on it, she was surprised to find she could get all the high notes on a two reed! And the tone was lovely.
From my reading, and someone more expert can correct me if I am wrong, or have trusted a source I shouldn't trust, but it was suggested u use the softest reed u can get all the notes/techniques u want... I have personally found anything softer than a two doesn't do the high notes.... a 2 and a half does it easily... and I have lost my 2 reed, so I can't answer about that one at the moment!!!!
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