 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kenneth
Date: 2016-01-03 21:39
According to Vandoren's marketing information, the "13 Series" range of mouthpieces were introduced to appeal to the American market by facilitating lower pitch (A=440Hz), relative to the slightly higher pitch (A=442) which I gather is more commonly employed in Continental Europe. The 13 Series mouthpieces have also become popular here in the UK and I play on 13 Series B40 and B40Lyre mouthpieces. I understand that the 13 Series mouthpieces have a slightly wider bore.
Has anyone identified any significant difference in tonal characteristics between the 13 Series and standard Vandoren mouthpieces of a given model?
Ken.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-03 22:37
Well that's no on several counts. The bore isn't different. It is the size of the tone chamber that is different. The 13 series has a substantially larger tone chamber. The added internal volume lowers the pitch. I have to say that (as far as I am concerned) the 13 series just makes "pinching" or "biting" easier (or worse - necessary!). Using a standard Vandoren and consciously keeping the embouchure more of a circular effort ALL AROUND the mouthpiece will keep the pitch lower where you need it and not screw up your 12ths.
As for the comparison of one to another in terms of timbre. I have both in a Masters CL4 and the ONLY difference is that of pitch.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-01-04 02:55
My experience is that there is a difference in timbre between the traditional blank and the 13 series.
This is based on refacing mouthpieces for students- I collect (either 2nd hand or new) 5RV Lyre mouthpieces and put a slightly different facing on them for my students. Every year I would do this to between 10 and 15 mouthpieces.
At least twice I have ordered a 50/50 shipment of 13 vrs trad mouthpieces, and been able to compare the quality of the blank.
I find the 13 series to have a "clearer" quality with more emphasis on the lower harmonics, and the Trad blanks to have a more "concentrated" sound in the upper register, and the lower/upper registers match each other better.
I won't comment on the intonation, other than to say that I know many fine players who use one or the other.
I don't suggest that this is a HUGE difference, but I doubt this is a figment of my imagination.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-01-04 03:30
Paul wrote:
"Using a standard Vandoren and consciously keeping the embouchure more of a circular effort ALL AROUND the mouthpiece will keep the pitch lower where you need it and not screw up your 12ths."
This is a blanket statement which leaves out one vital piece of information: which instrument is attached to your mouthpiece??
While a "circular embouchure" may work to keep the pitch low enough on Paul's instrument, it certainly doesn't work for mine.
Regarding the timbre questiin, I agree with Donald. I've heard of one famous principal clarinettist who plays on a shortened 13-series mouthpiece for this reason.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-04 04:48
I speak of R13s which is the intended use for the 13 Series. I contend that the 13 series is more of a marketing configuration to appease the US appetite for the "darker sound" (whatever that is) and to make it easier to obtain "pitch" without working correctly to achieve it.
I know I'm not the only who feels this way, but I do put myself out there quite a bit in an attempt to correct this trend.
And I don't think "Liquorice" condones "biting" as a correct approach to the clarinet embouchure, but there aren't many options to my suggestion of using ALL the musculature around the mouthpiece INSTEAD of one's jaw...........too easy and NOT correct.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-01-04 17:15
Why not use a shorter barrel to correct the pitch instead of biting?
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2016-01-05 18:36)
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Author: RefacerMan
Date: 2016-01-04 18:52
There is a difference in the bore between the standard pitch Vandoren mouthpieces (442) and the M series (440). I use a tapered bore gauge to measure the bores and the gauge goes into the M series noticeably farther. In addition the baffles on the M series have been scraped down so they are much lower than the standard series Vandoren mouthpieces. This makes the sound less bright and makes your reeds feel a little bit softer. It can also make the sound a little bit less clear and possibly stuffier. If you can try a number of M series mouthpieces some will sound uncentered and the pitch will sag. Chose the ones that respond easily and sound the most centered. Those tend to be the ones that play better.
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Author: Kenneth
Date: 2016-01-05 00:56
RefacerMan,
What do you mean by "M series" - is this the Masters series?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-01-05 01:31
"I speak of R13s which is the intended use for the 13 Series."
Really? I never read that in any of the Vandoren marketing. But Paul- did it cross your mind that Kenneth might not be playing on an R13? People also play other models in the UK and elsewhere and trying to get some of those models to play down at A=440 can be unnecessarily uncomfortable with a high-pitched Vandoren mouthpiece.
Post Edited (2016-01-05 01:35)
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Author: Kenneth
Date: 2016-01-05 02:17
I do play on an R13, which I think is the most popular professional-standard Buffet model here in the UK.
As commented on by "Liquorice", Paul Aviles stated that the Vandoren 13 Series mouthpieces are intended for use with Buffet R13s - any idea why this might be the case?
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-01-05 02:27
M series was referring to the M13, M15 and M30 models, the M13 being the first model in the 13 series tuning adjustment. The association between these models is well founded since only the M15 and M30 may be ordered not in 13 series tuning adjustment.
When Donald Montanaro helped design the M13 model (the M refers to his name) he was using R13s (or at least designed them with that type of clarinet in mind) since the goal of the M series was to attempt to duplicate the Chedeville mouthpieces that so many Buffet players used and coveted.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-01-05 04:45
In Vandoren literature it indicates that the M series is intended mainly to assist playing down to A=440. Now the US market is obviously very big for Buffet and the R13 is the major player in that market but not aware that there is any special "adjustment" to specifically suit the R13.
In response to Ken's comment my experience in the UK is that the RC is about equally popular to the R13.
In the band I regularly play with the section comprises 1 x Leblanc Concerto, 1 x Eaton Elite, 1 x Leblanc LL, 2 x B&H 926, 1 x R13, 1 x RC, 1 x Yamaha 650. and for Eb B&H 926, for Eb alto Paris Selmer and Bass Paris Selmer.
and for orchestra 1 pair Luis Rossi, 1 Pair RC, 1 pair B&H 926. with Eb 926 and Bass Paris Selmer.
So no overwhelming Buffet or R13 dominance in our part of the UK.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-05 09:11
Well my prejudice against the 13 Series (and all other intentionally "dark" mouthpieces) is from direct experience in the US and what you normally run into with young, early students of the clarinet. Band directors are looking for an "easy out" to the tendency for the young, new players to play brighter and shriller. Anything that might tone that down is looked upon as a good thing. But this is at the expense of training our young clarinet players to approach the embouchure and resultant pitch tendencies correctly.
Here is just one standard negative symptom. The clarinetist in question will be perfectly in-tune (so they say, referring to their obviously compensated concert Bb), but then wonder why their first line "E" is flat and they can't do anything to fix it.
This is a what happens HERE IN THE STATES. If you guys across the pond are using A=440, I would think there would be a tendency to see the same issue.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: RefacerMan
Date: 2016-01-05 18:27
Sorry for the confusion Kenneth. I should have said the "13 series". By "M series" I meant M13 and M13Lyre which are all the low pitch "13 series".
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-01-06 10:44
I have both. I use my 13 series with a 66mm barrel for playing at 440, and a "normal" series and a 65mm barrel for playing at 442. The normal with the 65mm and a .5mm tuning ring allows for 441.
Sounds odd that I would be so precise, but I play a lot with various groups at 440, but then have a duo with a marimba/vibraphone player. His marimba is 442 but the vibes are 441. So I've become very exacting with this.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-01-06 10:46
PS does anyone else find vandoren's system confusing?
They have the M13 13 series, for example. Why don't they just call the low pitch series "american" series or something? Is there a reason? What does the 13 in 13 series stand for?
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-06 19:38
This quote from Donald Montanaro is incorrect:
"Mouthpiece facings can have any number of variations. German models tend to be very long and require a very heavy reed."
A 2 1/2 strength is the typical reed strength for the typical German facing, and it is NOT a heavy reed. A heavy reed would in fact not work very well (as I had experienced for the years that I played Oehler system clarinets).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-01-06 20:39
The very long and close facings are more specific for the Austrian models. Austrian mpcs are often (but incorrect) classified as German models.
Same happens with the instruments: The Austrian (Viennese) clarinets have traditionally a large bore while the traditional German clarinets have a small bore. They share of course the non-Boehm fingering system.
It's a bit like comparing traditional French and English clarinets.
They both share the Boehm fingering system but are quite different animals.
Things get even more complex nowadays because everything is mixed up resulting in endless combinations...
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