 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Oberlin
Date: 2001-05-10 12:58
At some time in his career, was Earl Bates
the principal clarinetist with the Saint
Louis Symphony? If so, was this before or
after his tenure with the Philadelphia
Orchestra?
Thanks for any information,
Dan
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-05-10 20:22
I'm not sure when Bates was in Philadelphia, but I remember a picture of him on the cover of Woodwind World magazine some time in the early 1960s, identifying him as being principal in St. Louis.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-05-11 01:08
Ken is right about the early 60's for Bates being principal in St. Louis. He had left by the mid-60's to join the faculty at Indiana University. You might look at literature from I.U. from that time which would probably give faculty resumes (for example, University catalogs from 1963-65. These are usually available from the University libary).
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2013-06-16 22:50
I believe when he left St. Louis, George Silfies appeared. One could check more precisely with Slatkin, now at Detroit.
richard smith
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2013-06-17 17:40
Hi All:
Earl Bates was the Principal clarinetist of the St. Louis Symphony for many years. I also worked with him at the Aspen Music Festival. I succeeded him as Principal clarinetist in St. Louis and Andy Crissanti took over for a season or two before George Silfes, a great Clarinetist & Pianist!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Dan Paprocki
Date: 2013-06-18 02:50
Didn't Earl Bates perform a Chopin Etude transcription on the Ted Mack amateur hour or some type of show like that? This would have been in the early 60's? It was a very impressive performance.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-19 00:45
When I studied with him at Aspen he was principal in St. Louis in the summer of 58 and complained about not getting the Philly job instead of Anthony G. He was a fine player but a poor teacher, in my opinion. I've heard that from several others as well, I'm sure there are different opinions of that though. He was one on my inspirations though that summer when he told me I'd never make it as a professional clarinetest. Just made me want to prove him wrong, I guess I did. I guess it might have helped if he actually taught me something that summer instead of just telling me "do it again" instead of telling me what to do differently and how to go about it. Heck, I found a way.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-19 11:47
For "natural" players (such as a kid who can perform a Chopin transcription after a year or so of study), everything comes easy. They just do it. Such players often have trouble teaching because they haven't analyzed how they play. It would just get in the way. And for many students of natural players -- even those as talented as Ed Palanker -- "do it again" or "do it this way" isn't enough.
From the sublime to the ridiculous, when I was in high school I tried to teach a few students. It was a disaster, for the same reason.
At Interlochen in the summer of 1962, I had a long and memorable discussion with Bill Conable, a wonderful and highly analytic cellist. http://alexanderworkshops.com/Bill.html He said that he had studied with Frank Miller, the principal cellist of the NBC Symphony and the Chicago Symphony. It was totally frustrating. Miller did everything without effort, but had trouble putting what he did into words. Bill moved to Peter Farrell, who was not in Miller's league as a player but had thought everything through and was great about explaining it to his students.
Many great players -- Stanley Hasty, Robert Marcellus -- could do both, but Earl Bates pretty clearly could not. It's to Ed's great credit that he found his own way.
Ken Shaw
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2013-06-20 16:50
Earl must have learned a lot about teaching between 1958 and the late 70's when I studied with him because he was an excellent teacher, especially on the technical aspects of clarinet playing. He had a no-nonsense, nuts-and-bolts approach to teaching the clarinet. Not a lot of verbiage, all concepts presented in a simple and concise manner.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-06-21 01:21
Well I guess Earl Bates was different to differnet students. We're doing the "Academy" now with the BSO, non professional adults playing with the BSO members for a week and taking lessons and classes as well. I have an adult student that studied at IU during the time Bates was there and he told me Bates had a terrible reputation as a teacher at that time. I guess it's just a matter of who you talk to. I just wish he would have told me what he wanted me to do and how to do it instead of just "do it again".
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: gotareed?
Date: 2013-11-24 18:59
Hi Ed - we were both students of Earl at Aspen in '58. What I liked about
Earl's teaching was his giving me the Bonade methods that he got at Curtis. Bonade had some "slow motion" tonguing and fingering exercises that helped me at the time. Also, he gave me a sense of the Tabeteu system of dynamic control which also helped.
Hope things are well with you Ed. Regards, Don Gephardt
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-11-25 02:39
For staccato passages, Bonade taught students to move their fingers ahead of the note, in the silence between the notes. Is this what you wrote about?
I've found it very useful for fast passages, such as in the overture to Semiramide in the descending scale at the end of the big solo.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ruben
Date: 2013-11-25 11:11
Ken: I have experienced this time and time again and fully agree with you: most people that have tremendous natural ability can't teach because they've never had to wrestle with the difficulties the rest of us have to face. This holds true for whatever the subject: music, maths, golf, anything... It's not because you're a native speaker of a language that you will know how to teach it.
Didn't Earl Bates also arrange jazzy types of tunes as well? I seem to recall rhapsodic arrangements of show tunes like "Cocktails for Two".
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: gotareed?
Date: 2013-11-25 16:23
To: Ken Shaw
Yes, that is exactly right - it was slowing things down so that the fingers got to the next note way ahead of the tongue. Also, touching the reed with the tongue very lightly so that you stopped the vibration of the reed, while still allowing air to flow into the instrument. Earl led me through some very basic things that were essential to good playing - and he seemed to have thought through these basic things - not someone who was just very talented and had not had to think about anything he was doing on the instrument.
Don Gephardt
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2013-11-28 03:06
Shame on all of you after Post #4 which was by Mr Bates son.
All subsequent posts should have been more respectful to Bate's legacy and his own kin posting on this site.
Let me say this:
> There is more to teaching than just teaching how to play. A teacher should have an impact beyond just the instrument. Think Sen Sei rather than clarinet teacher.
> OK so someone does not analyze what they can do. Just play in the lesson. My talented student get what I do when I play for them....not when I try to put into words. If I have to explain it beyond the second lesson, they may never get it.
> My guess is that his influence is all around us but we just cannot put our finger on it.
DRG
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Author: Rezzie
Date: 2013-11-28 16:12
I studied with Earl Bates in the mid-70s at Indiana.
I was clearly a better player when I left than when I went in. Earl was a pretty thorough teacher, but I think we interpreted a lot of what he said without actually hearing what he meant, in retrospect. He wasn't an easy guy to get an 'attaboy' from, at least not for me. He was always cordial, but never informally warm as an individual. In retrospect, I was basically 'just another guy' as a player, but I wasn't aware of that yet. He had some basic points to make about sound and overall musicianship that I hear violated all the time these days, and really mark the kind of things that are going to get you bumped off an audition list, even if you get a lot of harder to grasp things right. His viewpoint was one of an orchestral player, and that's the way he taught.
In preparing for my recital, I had one last run through with my accompanist at the church I was performing the recital in. Being later in the day, Earl dropped in after having had his traditional 'stop for a pop' at the local on the way home from campus. Best lesson I ever had with him - he loosened up from the character I was used to seeing in his studio. I didn't expect him to drop in, but he did, and we stayed and worked on the nuances of the Brahms Eb Sonata for a good hour. Even my accompanist said "wow' at the end of it.
As with any teacher, YMMV.
Post Edited (2013-11-28 19:04)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-11-28 21:13
Rezzie -
I'd be interested in knowing Earl Bates's basic points about sound and overall musicianship, and how you hear them violated.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2018-10-30 05:50
Earl Bates was my first teacher, in St. Louis, Mo. from Jan 1960 to June 1963, at which time he moved to Bloomington, Indiana. He had been Principal Clarinet of the St. Louis Symphony since 1949. Andrew Crisanti, Leland Munger and John Moses were three of his successors until George Silfies joined the orchestra in the fall of 1970.
It happens that his birth date was Oct. 29, 1920. Dan Block and Jim Ognibene, who studied with him at Indiana, and I had dinner together in NYC this evening in tribute to Earl's 98th birthday.
I was, of course, a beginner to intermediate student when I was Mr. Bates' student. He was disciplined and very generous with his time. I regret that I never got to thank him for all that he did for me as a young student.
Steve Hartman
Principal Clarinet
New York City Ballet Orchestra
Post Edited (2018-10-30 15:46)
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Author: batess
Date: 2018-11-01 00:49
Steve, thanks very much for the warm memories, you're correct on Dad's birthday. Glad you and Messers Block and Ognibene were able to have dinner in the City to celebrate.
My sister and I are still going through many of his personal effects after settling the estate, am attempting to scan the highlights. Here's a few from the American Woodwind Quintet.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NZeiunv61ll4GwDKNRzWed0AFAKt0mLH
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VYx8y8Q6UH4zqr-34XfjO9Jyh86gwU4D
And a bit of a bonus of a very young Earl Bates prior to his becoming a Professor of Music.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ItxnEBe_YTLunE-eOUqJgP7iq8k6H60Z
Fond Regards, Stephen Bates (music appreciator and patron)
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2018-11-01 18:08
So nice to hear from you, Stephen Bates! That was quite a world-class quintet and thanks for the other documents as well.
I wonder whether you could contact me privately: sdh902@bellatlantic.net
Best.
-Steve Hartman
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2018-11-06 02:49
Wouldn't it be great if each of the famous teachers of yesteryear had a dedicated YouTube channel where their former students could post videos as a tribute to their legacy.
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Author: blueclarinet
Date: 2018-11-09 10:59
Bates never played in Philadelphia, although he auditioned in 1950. I studied with him at Indiana U many years back. Chris Sereque
William C Sereque
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Author: OwenBates
Date: 2020-04-30 06:17
Just stumbled across this BB and this thread. I'm the middle son from Dad's first marriage. It's been a delight to read all of the comments and inputs from everyone. As a child, these aspects of your father's life aren't something you ordinarily learn about.
The family would drive from St. Louis to Aspen for many summers during the late 50s and 60s. I have fond memories of driving with Dad to the back stage entrance to the Concert Tent which is where they played back then. I'd sneak past the curtain and sit out front for the concert. They performed chamber music on Wednesday and Saturday and full orchestra on Sunday.
Thanks again to everyone for your insight and comments.
Owen Bates
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-04-30 15:04
Did Earl Bates make any commercial recordings of solo or chamber music for clarinet? I don't see anything posted on YouTube. Owen, do you have any recordings of your dad performing that have not been released?
Post Edited (2020-04-30 18:38)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-04-30 16:18
Post Edited (2020-05-01 17:34)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2020-05-01 17:34)
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-05-01 01:11
Mr Palanker, that comment is almost identical to the one you made in 2018, and you made your point already in 2013. I imagine you didn't read through the thread and realise that you'd already commented- but we did, and we get your point.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-05-01 17:33
Thank you Donald you're right, I did not bother to read through all the answers to notice I'd answered this before not realizing it was an older post. Me bad, I will delete the last one.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2020-05-01 20:56
Anyone have names for the flutist, oboist, and bassoonist in the American WW Quintet?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-05-01 21:53
Thanks to the lead Elmo Lewis provided, I can see that the Golden Crest LP Record (CR 4075) by the American WW Quintet lists Harry Houdeshei, flute; Jerry Sirucek, oboe; Leonard Sharrow, bassoon; and Philip Farkas, horn, with Earl Bates, clarinet.
Post Edited (2020-05-01 23:25)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-02 04:28
Wow!
Phil Farkas is a TRUE musical legend (not to take anything from Earl Bates of course). As a Chicagoan I heard lots about Phil but never saw an image of him.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-05-02 07:54
Leonard Sharrow is a great name too, having recorded the Mozart Concerto with Toscanni and having served as principal bassoon in the Chicago Symphony for a decade and a half.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-04 15:01
Interesting photo. It shows a "thumb-pointing-up" position for holding the clarinet. Certainly a posture taught by Elsa Ludwig-Verdehr. This prevents any undo stress in hand and wrist by passing weight on through arm and rest of skeletal system.
I know, not the point of the posting but.......interesting.
..............Paul Aviles
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