 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-01-02 01:40
When you talk about thickness of a reed and if you want to compare one brand with another, where on the read should the thickness be measured? For example if I have a Rico 3 regular reed and wanted to compare with a Lurie Premium 2.5 or a D'Adario Reserve Classic 2.5 where would I measure.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2016-01-02 01:52
"thickness" is a misleading word - "stiffness" would be better.
A reed's stiffness is a function of its profile, the age and curing of the reet blanks used and probably two or more factors. Squeezing it between calipers won't reveal meaningful and consistent results.
But you may look up one of the "reed strength charts" where the various brands and models are compared:
http://www.woodwinds.daddario.com/woodwindsStrengthComparisonChart.page
--
Ben
Post Edited (2016-01-02 01:53)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-01-02 03:00
Just so you're aware, there are differences in thickness in the blanks reeds are made from. For example, the butt of the reed of a blue box vandoran is thinner than that of a gray box vandoran V12.
For what you're comparing, I'd go find some reed comparison charts (many popular manufacturers have one somewhere on their website).
But keep in mind even between the same brand, the numbers don't necessarily match up between their own reeds ( a vandoren V12 size 3 may not match up to a vandoren blue box 3, or rue lepic 3, etc etc)
For what YOU seem to be asking, check here for one example of such a chart....
http://www.woodwinds.daddario.com/woodwindsStrengthComparisonChart.page?sid=3f7a08d8-2101-4bc8-ad69-89978d84bb4e
US Army Japan Band
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-01-02 03:01
Maybe I meant to say stiffness. Just wanted to know a way to compare reeds of different brands. Tried calipers but didnt seem to be a useful way.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-01-02 03:04
BGBG wrote:
> Maybe I meant to say stiffness. Just wanted to know a way to
> compare reeds of different brands. Tried calipers but didnt
> seem to be a useful way.
If you were interested in such a device, a sponsor of the board.....
http://www.reedwizard.com/Home.html
Specifically the perfectareed.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2016-01-02 03:04)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-02 04:36
But that is FAR, FAR more complicated than just one thing such as how thick the material is at the tip. Just like mouthpieces, there are so many different dimensions to consider. Look at the duck bill shape of the cut portion of the reed from the side. Some reeds that are the SAME strength can have a much longer Vamp (cut portion) than another.
Once you REALLY get into it, one of the more important details is the shape of 'heart' (the point where the vamp has noticeably more material in it to give the reed its proper firmness. This can only really be judged by looking THROUGH the reed with it placed in front of a light. The shape of the heart can be more "V" shaped or more "U" shaped. Each with its own characteristic sound.
Personally I just stick to finding a brand and strength I like and just playing on them.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: knotty
Date: 2016-01-02 05:08
For a very short while I tried to measure the reed thicknesses at various points with a dial gauge setup. The main problem I ran into was, the reed does not have a flat area anywhere that you can get a accurate and consistent measurement because it's a continuously changing wedge. Even if you have a jig to hold the reed in the same place, (I did) to find the exact same place on the other "ear" was near impossible for me. Eyeballing is no where close enough.
I probably was doing something incorrectly anyway.
In the end, I found the tried method of rotating the mpc side to side and adjusting with a rush by sound by far the simplest and quickest method.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-01-02 06:46
Armed with even the most advanced computer laser methods of measuring a reed's thickness at thousands (millions) of points (i.e. it's overall contour) to crazy levels of accuracy, you are still left with the fact that unless its a synthetic reed, where the uniformity of the material the reed's made out of can be subject to high degrees of quality control, and as a result thickness and stiffness highly correlate, you are forced to recognize the following:
The cane reed's "manufactured" in part by mother nature. Variability in the cane, even within the same reed itself, can allow for two sections of a reed, as close to identical in thickness (and contour) as humans can measure, to respond differently.
Vandoren, for example, quality tests their reeds to be cut within tolerances of their choosing (for a brand) to a size that's less than a human hair. Need I tell you, all their reeds of a brand and strength are hardly identical. Need I also tell you--as you may legitimate not know---ALL reeds of a brand, regardless of strength, are cut identically. It is mother nature that determines the reed's strength. Manufacture's determine at what strength to classify a reed by either applying a known fixed force to the reed, and seeing how much it deflects, or by noting how much strength is required to flex the reed to a pre-established distance.
This test usually done the former way, exposing the reed to a puff of air of fixed strength, and measuring deflection: identical in concept to a optical glaucoma test's change in eyeball shape when exposed to a puff of air. (Less deflection, more eyeball pressure, and possible vision diseases as a result.)
https://youtu.be/MwOUEsdpuI0?t=1m40s
Getting back to the essence of the OP's original question, which is how mechanical devices can measure a reed's resistance:
"When you talk about thickness of a reed and if you want to compare one brand with another, where on the read should the thickness be measured?"
No place. There is no one place. The reed's profile in entirety would have to be factored in, and still be subject to mother nature's variability discussed above.
Exercises of these kinds are like "trying to throw a dart in precisely the same place twice, when the target is chocolate pudding." ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2016-01-02 10:06
At first I had an idea that measuring thickness of a good and a bad reed would somehow lead to insight how to change the bad to make it good. I see from reading and thinking about the above that this was a misconception and though it might be easy to measure it does not then help me decide what to do. So it may be best to simply try another reed if one does not suit. Maybe others have discovered this or maybe knew from the start it was not a good approach.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-01-02 14:09
Well your idea is certainly not new.......and not far off from some modern reed working concepts. There are a few (I find dubious) products out there that claim (and some of of like them!!) to improve the reed by running through its shaping system. This to me is heretical based exactly on what we have talked about, but it demonstrates that some companies make money off of those of us who want to believe it to this very day.
Also in the not too distant past, many top students at the top schools for clarinetists used what is called a "reed dual." This machine is essentially a "key machine." You put your great reed on one side, you put a preformed reed blank on the other and ........voila.......you get an "exact copy" of your great reed from the blank. For the reasons we have discussed that worked with pretty mixed results.
Vandoren (and I'll concede perhaps some other companies) has put years and many dollars into perfecting reed production. The state of pre-made reeds is so much more wonderful than it was just 20 years ago that, as no less than Karl Leister has said, we no longer have reeds as an excuse for poor playing.
They are not perfect mind you, but they are pretty darn good these days!!!!!
.....................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2016-01-02 14:12)
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-01-02 16:01
The Reedual-as Paul explains is pretty much the same as a Key cutting machine (and this is where the idea for this machine first came from). As well as being used for making new reeds (it's intended use) it can also be used to balance commercial reeds that don't play well.
The reed is too hard and stuffy? You do the side/side test and it's clearly unbalanced? Stick it on the 'dual and give it a few passes to get it to match your "master reed"... this may or may not work (and the more care you take, and the more knowledge you have, the better the chances that it will work) but when it does it's a very effective way of "saving" a reed...
By far this is the most common and useful use for my Reedual
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-01-02 20:18
I have a problem with reed duplicating machines consistent with my discussion above.
I take no issue with the quality of their craftsmanship, their production to rigid quality standards, or their ability to copy a reed as measured by physical size. For those who have success with them--perhaps using them as a starting point to further adjust a reed--I take my hat off to you. They're great for making your own reeds from scratch if that's your thing, but no way are you going to get the "less than a hair's thickness) tolerance that manufactures do.
(Editorial comment: One of your most precious assets in clarinet play is your time. IMHO, don't waste it making your own reeds under the assumption that you can do a better job at making reeds than manufacturers with multi-million dollar production facilities. This belief I think applies to nearly all clarinet players, but not everyone. Extremely advanced players may have compelling arguments against my beliefs here. Spend that time in quality etude book study. )
But unless the cane of one (wood) reed is identical to another reed, which it never is--heck, there's even variability in the same thickness and countoured sections of a reed when comparing its symmetry down an imaginary line through the middle of the reed's length, then we're back at "trying to hit the same mark with a dart multiple times, when the target is chocolate pudding."
If the, for all intents and purposes, identically cut reeds of a brand can fall into 10+ strength categories as a result of mother nature's inherent variability in cane, we don't stand a chance using physical dimensions of a reed as a good surrogate for strength.
I can't help but think, BCBG, that the essence of everything discussed here is how to achieve a well balanced (in terms of play, not necessary thickness) reed. Up to this point, contour and thickness, and points of comparison on the reed have likely been the best things you have, the best surrogates if you will, to measuring strength, or stiffness, or rigidity (pick your word).
There's no shame in your approach. It was well intentioned and thought out, but it will miss its mark, if that mark is a good playing reed.
Bottom line, until such point in science where we can grow the same DNA under the same conditions that the stuff wood reeds are made of really is--for all intents and purposes, consistent inter- and intra-reed, (and then we'll still have less than perfect mid-line symmetry in our mouthpiece and embouchure) actually playing of a reed, and testing its balance using things like tilting the mouthpiece from side to side, and measuring each side's resistance to one another, and adjusting the reed by removing material from its "stiffer by play" side, to balance it out for strength (which may or may not comport with being perfectly symmetrical) will remain our best approach to maximize the quality of, and number of good reeds in our arsenal.
I urge you to watch Youtube videos from Tom Ridenour on this subject, and invest in his ATG reed finishing system. I have zero conflict of interest in making this recommendation.
Post Edited (2016-01-02 20:30)
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-01-03 01:48
In the process I briefly described I match the commercial reed with a "master" of the same blank thickness, and of the same design (ie I'll adjust a V12 using my "V12 master" but not a Rico Reserve Classic). This is NOT effective about 50% of the time, the other 50% it usually produces a playable reed but seldom a "performance reed".
Adjusting by hand has proven more likely to produce a performance reed (this may be because I am more selective about which reed I spend my time on) but takes longer....
Adjusting using the Reedual usually takes about 2min per reed, so if only 50% are usefully playable let's say 4min per playable reed- a nice little break to take a sip of coffee and maybe rescue a reed that could be thrown out. (and SAVE $$$$)
Sometimes the rescued reeds show more promise than I expected, and I'll finish them by hand at a later date...
I have friends who do the "buy 20 boxes of reeds and find the best" solution, and they spend MORE time than me on the annoying reed dance.
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-01-03 02:01
Here's another interesting thing- ok, I agree that the quality/stiffness of the cane is an essential element of making a reed work, and shortcomings here can not always (often?) be fixed by adjusting dimensions...
However back in 2008 I was playing a show that gave me very little time left over to do any practise and prepare for a concerto... the only time left in most days for me to fiddle about with reeds was when i got home late at night, and at that time I could not play test the reeds without disturbing neighbours/girlfriend.
So one week i tried an experiment.
During the day, when teaching, I identified what I called "likely reeds"- reeds that I could play, had a quality to the sound that was promising, and were out of balance.
Late at night I would come home, and after each show adjust ONE REED from the stock of promising reeds...
But here's the thing- all I would do was measure it on the Perfectareed, and balance it using these measurements, WITHOUT ANY PLAY TESTING. All I was doing was rendering one "ok ish" reed perfectly symetrical.
The next day I would play that reed teaching.
Now, this did NOT produce the great performance reed for my concerto. I was quite surprised that it DID improve every single reed, and render most playable for the purpose of teaching/demonstrating.[disclaimer, I had obviously rejected the truly horrible reeds in the pre selection]
Dimensions on their own aren't everything, but they're a hell of a lot!
A good teacher and lots of time practising count for more, start with that for sure...
Post Edited (2016-01-03 06:07)
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