 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-30 01:13
Attachment: DSCs-01025.JPG (116k)
I think I have a leaky pad- the top pad in the lower section. I initially called it B/F# because it's the pad that closes when you go from low C to low B natural- but Chris P says it's the "RH ring key pad" so I edit to call it by its correct name.
I hadn't checked joint seal for a while, so I did my suction tests with corks and wet fingers. Top joint/section was pretty close to Coke bottle tight (I've got an old thread about such issues as how to test and how tight they should be), but bottom joint was not as good as I expect. So I went through the usual routine of pressing down on various pads to see which one(s) were to blame, expecting the usual big suckers down at the bottom. Was surprised the biggest offender seems to be the very top pad- never had a problem with that one before.
I checked with a piece of thin plastic (my sub for cigarette paper) and it seems OK all around. Still- I think it's probably sub par. How else could I be sure?
And how could I improve it short of breaking out the good old torch and shellac pellets, to replace or at least reseat it? Is there a safe protocol for bending this guy for firmer contact, like is done down by the crow's foot? Or is there somewhere I could put a cork or paper shim? Doesn't look like it to me.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-12-30 01:49)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-30 01:24
Is it leaking at the front or back?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-30 01:29
I pressed on the pad right in the middle of the photo (front), and the seal improved. I did not see a split in the pad, but of course it's hard to see in there even with a flashlight. Would be smart to replace the pad.
I have had some playing difficulties of late that I am really hoping I can blame on a leak, LOL.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-12-30 01:31)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-30 01:41
Take the ring key off to have a better look at the pad. If it has split, then replace it. If it's not closing against the tonehole and leaking at the front, then heat up the pad cup and shift the pad so it seats better. Likewise if it's leaking at the back. Test it with your feeler gauge to determine where it's not seating.
I thought you meant the B/F# 'sliver key' pad at first - this is the RH ring key pad (and covers the C/G tonehole).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-12-30 01:43)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-30 01:51
OK, Chris- thanks for the instructions. Will report later.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-12-30 02:04
If the bridge adjustment is too tight and is binding at the top of its travel it can prevent this pad from closing fully, even though it works OK when the joints are separated. When you've got it sealing well assemble the instrument and check it again. If it has gone leaky then the bridge adjustment is out.
It is possible to bend this pad arm slightly. I put a pad slick which is long enough to the cover all 3 rings under the rings to prevent them fully closing and the gently press down on the pad arm. Note that this can alter the ring height and cause more problems, so don't try it unless you're sure you can dig yourself out of any holes you might fall into. This interacts with the bridge adjustment, so it can be something of a minefield.
Tony F.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-30 02:29
Tony, I think I'll avoid bending that key for now.
Chris, I removed the key. The pad is not split. If I reseat, I assume I have to remove pad and add more shellac since I need pad further from the key. And it's so easy to do too much, and cleanup is messy. I've done this in the past down on the big pads, we'll see whether a smaller pad is easier or harder.
Do I need to line up the old circular indentation with the tone hole? Would be nice to avoid that complication- that would be a vote for a new pad.
Yet another operation that, if successful, will mean one less thing to worry about in future. And I think it will wait for the New Year- I will play backup horn in the meanwhile... should have been testing A vs B with it anyway. Too much engineering to finish by 12/31 and clarinet time is precious.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-12-30 02:34)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-30 02:39
Ideally the tonehole impression on the pad should line up with the tonehole itself if it's not a new pad whereas a fresh pad won't have an impression on the face of it.
If the pad is too thick, it won't close at the front and the ring keys will be too high.
If the pad is too thin, then it won't close at the back (nearest the key barrel) and the ring keys may be too low.
Ideally you want the pad to be showing evenly all around the pad cup, but it depends on the clarinet and the type of pads it has been designed to use. Buffet use thinner pads than most. I presume an Arioso will use standard thickness (3mm thick) pads.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-30 03:00
fskelley wrote:
> If I reseat, I
> assume I have to remove pad and add more shellac since I need
> pad further from the key.
Chris may disagree, but I don't think you should need or even want to remove the pad to re-seat it - precisely *because* you'd never get the impression lined up the same way. If you soften the adhesive (I assume it's some kind of heat melt material - shellac or hot glue - hopefully no one tried epoxy on it) the cup can be heated so the cement just softens and pad can be moved with a pad slick. The cement will flow into any empty space, forced to, since whatever opens up will be compensated for by reducing the space under the pad somewhere else. There's only so much volume under the pad. When the cement sets, it will hold the pad in place as it did before.
In my experience with students' instruments, the problem of that pad's leaking is almost always because the rings stop before the pad seats, often, as Tony says, because the bridge keys are misaligned and stop the whole RH stack from going down far enough.
Karl
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2015-12-30 03:02
It would probably be easier to thin the key cork on the bridge or adjust the bridge itself. Even if you do try to reseat the pad or replace it the bridge will still need to be adjusted. It is likely that the linkage for the bridge got bent at some point in the past (very common problem on all clarinets) and the best way to fix it will be to adjust the bridge so that the two pads seat again. No need to fix a pad that ain't broken.
Hope this helps
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-30 03:03
I never mentioned removing the pad anywhere - I mentioned removing the RH ring keys to check the condition of the pad.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-12-30 03:13
I find that this pad is often a problem. Be aware that many repair techs try to put in a pad that is too thick.
Steve Ocone
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-30 04:20
Thanks for all the input. Today I played backup clarinet "B" for the first time in months, and had far fewer play issues, which to me says there is in fact a problem with clarinet "A". And this pad is my #1 suspect. (As it happens I've been experimenting with different varieties of reeds, and breaking in several batches, over the past month, apparently at the same time this pad was developing a leak. Ain't that fun.)
So, on New Years Day or shortly after, I'll heat up that cup and reseat the pad. Perhaps it will go easy, that could happen. If not I might try a couple or 3 times, might even go with a new pad if I've got one to match the old one.
But if any trouble at all, or if horn "A" still doesn't play as well as "B", it's off to the shop- it's overdue for that anyway, and I think I'm still entitled to service just for the cost of shipping to and from Texas. :-)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-12-30 12:05
>> How else could I be sure? << >> I removed the key << >> and the seal improved <<
It sounds like you can remove and reassemble the key and you can check the seal, so no reason not to remove the key, seal the tone hole and check for seal. This way you can know for sure if it's leaking or not. That's the first thing I'd check.
>> I don't think you should need or even want to remove the pad to re-seat it - precisely *because* you'd never get the impression lined up the same way. <<
You're right that it's best not to do this. If you remove the pad because it's leaking then it's better to replace it anyway. However, it's possible to mark a leaking pad where the arm is, add glue and reglue the pad back so the orientation is close enough that it seals far better than it was before, as a DIY repair.
>> If you soften the adhesive (I assume it's some kind of heat melt material - shellac or hot glue - hopefully no one tried epoxy on it) the cup can be heated so the cement just softens and pad can be moved with a pad slick. <<
Unless a repairer put enough glue behind the pad to allow floating, then in about 99% of the cases it is not possible to float pads. There isn't enough glue behind it on just about all new clarinets. Many used clarinets also have pads that are impossible to float for one of several possible reasons.
BTW it is not necessarily a bad thing to not have enough glue to float. As long as the glue completely fills the gap between the pad and the key cup it's good. Some manufacturers don't even have enough glue to glue reliably...
Another thing is that if it's a stepped bladder pad, then by floating you lose half the reason to even use a stepped pad and there's weak support for the step. Of course a leaking pad is worse, but in most cases there are better ways to deal with a leaking bladder pads (though it's sometimes necessarily to float).
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-12-30 12:32
Karl wrote....
"In my experience with students' instruments, the problem of that pad's leaking is almost always because the rings stop before the pad seats, often, as Tony says, because the bridge keys are misaligned and stop the whole RH stack from going down far enough."
And that is exactly my experience, 99% of the time- however this may be because my students all follow my advice and go to the good repair techs recommended by their teacher. Certainly, if the joint seals and I can't find an obvious problem with the pad seating (our OP wrote "I checked with a piece of thin plastic (my sub for cigarette paper) and it seems OK all around") then the bridge key adjustment would be the first thing I would check. The OP has been checking the joints seperately, which would suggest the the bridge is NOT the problem, but I'd wager a happeny bun that the bridge IS the problem, and that there's also another problem....
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-30 19:58
fskelley wrote:
> I am particularly miffed rereading this old thread, that I said
> I never wanted to have a problem from a leak and think it was
> reeds or other things- and I did that very thing again just
> about a year later. Blech.
>
It always felt more than a little validating of my playing when a teacher would take my instrument to demonstrate how to do something and find that he couldn't do it, either, on my clarinet. Usually after a lot of grumbling that I was pinching the reed or not supporting enough, etc... Two things I learned from several such experiences are that: (1) if every reed feels crummy all of a sudden, it probably isn't the reeds' fault, and (2) it's much easier and quicker to check for a leak than to go through reed after reed trying to fix a problem.
If it turns out the instrument isn't leaking and the clarinet seems mechanically fine, then reeds and faulty technique become more likely culprits.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-12-31 01:03
kdk wrote:
> if every reed feels
> crummy all of a sudden, it probably isn't the reeds' fault
But I worked my way through 3 new boxes of unfamiliar types of reeds, while I had a slowly developing leak problem (or 2?). So I think the reeds were unfairly getting the blame for instabilities, but time will tell. We seldom get to truly evaluate one clarinet factor at a time- even when we think we've got it isolated. (That's why I didn't pull out clarinet B for so long- while I was evaluating reeds I wanted to keep everything else constant.)
Or maybe the leak(s) happened all at once, who knows?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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