 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-02 21:13
Hi All,
I have often wondered whether there is such a thing as a classic bass clarinet or even a "golden age" for certain older instruments. There has been mention on this BB that a certain serial# series of R13 Bb soprano clarinets are very sought after instruments. Does the same hold true with a certain brand or model of bass clarinet?
Dave Spiegelthal, I know, is very high on Kolhert's and others covet certain Selmer and Buffet instruments. But is there a "love to have/must have" vintage bass clarinet? And if so, why?
HRL
PS I also believe that owners of some of the classic bass clarinets do not often part with them.
Post Edited (2015-12-03 15:26)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-12-03 09:52
Some people really like Selmer bass clarinets from the 70s and/or 80s. Some really like older buffets, but not sure from when really.
Just like with the "golden age" of soprano clarinets, many disagree that they are any better than new ones. Actually many think new ones are better and prefer them.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-12-03 19:23
I think the ergonomics and mechanisms of the latest Selmer, Buffet and Uebel (basically identical to Buffet) bass clarinets are probably superior to any of the past instruments. Sound- and intonation-wise, not sure, those can be pretty subjective.
I can't afford anything new, so it's a moot point for me. As Dr. Hank notes, I consider the Kohlert basses from the early 1930s through about the early 1960s to be "poor man's Selmers", so for less than 1/10 the cost of a new top-line instrument, those are what I play.
Personally I think the "golden-age Buffet R-13 clarinet" concept is mostly an urban legend, at least from personal experience, as I've tried a fair number of mediocre R-13s from that time period. But who knows.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-12-06 04:11
Would be interesting to apply this test on clarinets:
http://www.thestrad.com/cpt-latests/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments/
I haven't played any vintage basses but for sopranos no 1950s clarinets can compete with those in the 1970s regarding intonation and evenness and the same holds for the 70s vs the 90s.
The manufacturers work all the time trying to improve their product.
With Leblanc soprano clarinets it is my impression that the quality declined after the fire in 2003 (serial 83XXX perhaps?) and never recovered.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-12-06 09:30
I owned an outstanding early 80s Selmer. Some really great players prefer them for their sound, but I think the keywork is so much better on modern instruments that any tonal advantage the vintage horns possess is too dearly bought.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-06 10:18
Selmer CT and Series 9 basses are among the best they made.
I had an '80s D series bass and couldn't care less about the keywork on it - the layout of the RH pinky keys wasn't compatible with other makes and all the extra linkages only increased the weight and sluggishness of the mechanism.
Likewise with Selmer basses made more recently being ridiculously over engineered when a far simpler design would do the job better and more reliably.
That's why I went for a post-1999 Buffet Prestige bass when it came to me buying a pro level bass from the 'Big 4' as the keywork had been completely redesigned (they were also ridiculously complex beasts before then) and the mechanism is nicely balanced with long leverages (especially the RH front low D key) to keep things light under the fingers.
Selmer have since reworked their basses in the form of the Privilege, so these are much better compared from their basses from the late '80s until the launch of the Privilege.
But if I was to buy a used Selmer bass, I'd most likely go for a '50s or '60s CT.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-06 17:15
The Selmer Series 9 and the Buffet basses seem to be mentioned here as well as over on SOTW.
While the Buffet instruments' lineage seems to be easier to trace, the Series 9 appears to have model# in the 30s (30, 33, etc.). Also, the low Eb versus the low C instruments may have different numbers as well.
Selmer has a letter prefix like T94xx. I've looked at other threads and tried to reconcile these Series 9 instruments with the model #s but can't seem to find the logic. The general opinion seems to be that these instruments have a great sound, very good intonation (unfortunately with a flat low E), and just OK ergonomics for the the pinky keys.
So can anyone unscramble the model numbers within the Series 9 family?
Thanks,
HRL
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-12-07 05:19
I don't think Selmer ever officially branded a bass as a Series 9. The Buffet lineage actually gets pretty complicated in the 90s. There were several versions of the Prestige (after the horrible RC) before the design settled down around 1999.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-07 11:28
I'm just glad I bought my Buffet bass at the right time - I borrowed a 1999 model which wasn't long after their complete remodelling and also the bass clarinettist with the band I used to play in had one. The thing I wasn't too pleased about them when they were first launched was the use of Allen key adjusting screws (with hexagonal heads) instead of the normal slotted type which is easier to adjust on the fly with a screwdriver (as no-one's likely to carry small Allen keys around with them) and you can see the amount of adjustment by the angle of the slot.
But I got my bass sometime in 2000 when the exchange rate was in our favour and don't plan in changing it. The idea of a Selmer Privilege is a bit far fetched as it's an expense I could do without, nice basses though they are. My Prestige bass has slotted adjusting screw heads, so that's better.
I recently worked on the previous RC Prestige bass and it's a ridiculously overly complicated instrument in the amount of linkages it employs to do what should b a simple task - fortunately Buffet rationalised the entire mechanism to make the post 1999 Prestige bass a far more straightforward instrument to work on.
The RC also had a longer lower joint as all the keywork and toneholes are on it and there's a vent hole in the bell for the low C, but that extra length may not be suitable for some people should they not be able to find a suitably high chair. The current Prestige and Tosca (and Uebel Emperior) low C basses have the more traditional shorter (within reason!) lower joint with the bell key for the lowest note - the bell has a wide bow with the low C vent on the left side near the front.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-07 16:03
CEC,
That's an interesting point.
I'm borrowing a Selmer Series 9 (clearly stamped on the upper section) low Eb bass that has a 4 digit number (9xxx) preceded by a T. My guess, based on looking at past threads, is there must be several model in the 30s ranges with the Series 9 logo embossed but nothing else. The instrument plays very well and the key work and linkages do not seem to be overly complex.
I also own a Series 9* Bb soprano clarinet (Selmer's attempt to rival the Buffet R13) with a T and 4 digit number (5xxx). My guess is both of these instruments are from about the same age about mid-1060s.
HRL
Post Edited (2015-12-07 16:07)
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2015-12-07 18:27
I have owned and or played professionally on Selmer Paris Low C bass clarinets since 1969. For me, the sound and projection of the model 33 basses, 1968-72 have the most projecting and beautiful sound . However, the intonation , particularly of the b , c and C sharp just above the throat register was consistently sharp. Modern Selmer basses, such as the model 37 and Privilege have excellent intonation on these notes and have flat low e and f's. The mechanism and general ergonomics are better on the newer models. In my opinion, the Selmer Paris bass clarinets have all produced a beautiful, lyrical tone quality in the mid and upper registers. I have played over 1200 performances of the Nutcracker Ballet over the years with these instruments.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-12-07 19:27
I will echo what Chet said. The best sounding basses that I have played were Selmers from that 60's-70's era.
FWIW- the Selmer Series 9 basses that I have seen were clearly stamped with that designation, as were the Bb and Eb clarinets.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2015-12-12 06:59
My Series 9 bass has a 3-digit serial number, R9XX. Intonation is generally fine, except for the flat low F, E and Eb, and the somewhat sharp long B, C, and C sharp. I have no experience with any other bass, so can't comment on its sound relative to others, except to say it's as big and juicy as I need it to be, and I love it. (I used to bring it to the late Jimmy Yan for checkups, and his face would always light up when he saw it. "Series 9--great horn!" he used to say.)
But is it THE "classic bass clarinet"? My impression is that both Selmer and Buffet basses have steadily improved over the decades, intonation-wise and ergonomically. You'd really have to do a serious double-blind test to come up with a winner sound-wise. And I think you'd have to distinguish between low-c models and low Eb models--aren't the playing characteristics somewhat different?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-12 15:45
Selmers are probably easier to live with in terms of the simplicity of their mechanisms whereas Buffet did over complicate things (until 1999 when they redesigned their basses from the ground up).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-12 16:30
As the discussion here continues, it seems that LeBlanc has not been mentioned often. The Selmer basses from the 60s and 70s as well as the early Buffet instruments appear to have gotten the nod.
I asked my good friend Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds about the early Selmer basses and he mentioned that some of the first low C instruments had a somewhat clunky low section that appeared to be an "add-on." However, Selmer did a much better job on the low section body as things progressed.
One theme that seems to run through the thread though is the Series 9 basses have a strong sound or "big and juicy" as DougR so humorously stated. And Jimmy Yan's assessment makes one smile. Also, my assertion above that "owners of some of the classic bass clarinets do not often part with them" appears to be viable.
I wonder is someone asks the same question that I posed to start the thread in about 2040 if Yamaha and Ridenour basses will join the classic bass list? What was previously a solely European domain will likely be shared with Asian products.
HRL
Post Edited (2015-12-12 17:09)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-12 17:25
Selmers low C basses are far too over engineered compared to the current Buffet basses - take the RH low D key on Selmers as an example. The low D touchpiece is essentially a lever which in turn operates a separate pad cup rather than being one single key. Now there's no reason why one key should be split up to perform one task - Buffets have the RH low D key as one complete unit and with a long length to the touchpiece so that gives better leverage and balance compared to a short lever with its own spring operating a pad cup also with its own spring which only increases friction making this key not only feel sluggish, but also heavy in its operation even when the spring tensions are backed right off.
Leblanc bases are the least developed of all the French basses and the low Db and C aren't linked to the rest of the mechanism giving a 'one touch' for low Db or low C as you can do on Buffet and Selmer (and Yamaha). But they have done away with the LH Ab/Eb lever in favour of the forked Ab/Eb mechanism which is seen on vintage Buescher and Conn (and other American) saxes so you can play Ab/Eb with the fingering xxx|xox, so slurring from low Eb to Ab to Db is possible without having to slide any fingers. It's a shame it hasn't been adopted (to my knowledge) by any other makers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-14 05:55
Chris P,
You lost me with "so slurring from low Eb to Ab to Db is possible..." What am I missing here about the Db? Why Db? I can't remember ever having to play those three in that order (but I guess you could with the forked fingering for Ab).
HRL
Post Edited (2015-12-14 17:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-14 21:52
Db is always taken with the left hand pinky (xxxC#|ooo), so to slur from low Eb (RH) to Ab on a bass fitted with a LH Ab/Eb lever you'd then use the LH Ab which makes that bit easy. But the Db above it is also a LH pinky note so therefore a difficult to impossible slur with just the one finger coming off the LH Ab key to the Db (C#/G#) key.
Also on basses where there's no LH Ab/Eb lever fitted (and no forked Ab/Eb mechanism), slurring from low Eb to the Ab above it is next to impossible as both touchpieces for these notes are in the RH pinky cluster, so you'll have to jump from the low Eb key over to the Ab/Eb key. But in this instance the LH pinky is free to play the Db.
So Leblanc had simplified this by fitting the forked Ab/Eb mechanism so low Eb to Ab to Db is taken with the RH pinky on the low Eb, the Ab is played as xxx|xox and then it's an easy slur to the Db (taken with the LH pinky).
It's either in one of Mahler's or Shostakovich's symphonies this low Eb-Ab-Db slur occurs, can't remember which. But the Leblanc bass fitted with the forked Ab/Eb mechanism makes it very simple.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-14 23:10
Thanks, Chris. I figured it must be something like you outlined. I guess I'll just have look forward to the Eb to AB to Db passage in my musical future.
Also, thanks for your insightful contributions to this thread. This is fascinating stuff, historically.
HRL
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-12-15 01:38
Yamaha will have to seriously up their game to have anything considered as a classic in the future. Their pro basses are nicely made, but produce a tiny sound and don't tune much better than the Selmers previous to the model 37. The 221II is heartbreaking. It's well made, feels great in the hands, is EASY to play and sounds fantastic, but any horn you have to add 1/2 inch worth of spacers to in order for it to play in tune is a non-starter. And the Ridenour, good as it may be, seems to be a "great for the money" choice - and that's an awesome thing as it seems to pretty much stand alone in that category. But personally, I don't think that alone will ever merit it classic status.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-12-15 04:16
For true sound quality the old B&H Imperial bass is hard to beat, especially when it gets to the clarion register where it still sounds like it really belongs to the clarinet family.
Only downside is the ergonomics of the low C model.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-15 04:29
Were Imperial basses the only basses ever built with the flare in the lower joint bore like soprano clarinets?
They also had a linkage fitted so LH2 held the LH1 fingerplate closed (via an adjusting screw soldered to the E/B vent key) so you can lift LH1 off for the altissimo instead of rolling LH1 down to uncover the aperture in the middle of the fingerplate. I had this same type of linkage fitted to my Buffet bass, but it can be completely disengaged as well by backing the screw off.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-15 15:55
CEC,
Your analysis of the Yamaha and Ridenour basses is very much in sync with my thinking. I have played several 221IIs and everything you say is spot on, particularly the tuning; way high. But a beautifully built lower-priced instrument.
I do like the Ridenours (have played several and owned a few as well) and for what they cost and what is delivered is a tremendous value. But a classic in 2040? I do not know if Tom's instruments will be in the revered/classic category; but he has really made his mark on several fronts.
There is no doubt in my mind that the new technology finding its way into instrument manufacturing is superior to previous techniques in many ways. Yamaha saxes and clarinets (I play a CS Custom clarinet and a Yamaha YTS 475 which gives up nothing to my Mark VI) are really top quality. But the bass clarinets while well made have design issues. One would think that intonation/tuning problems could be solved in some way.
Too bad there is just such a small market to bass clarinets. I do not mind paying the higher price that low volume/demand dictates but isn't there some middle ground like my Yamaha YTS 475? A bass clarinet with some features of the top tier instruments but a price point around $5K?
Above everything, I prize an instrument that plays well in tune. Sure, certain notes are always subject to acoustic and design limitations. However, I can give up other things but not intonation.
HRL
Post Edited (2015-12-15 21:48)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-12-24 01:45
Hi Hank,
In my opinion, none of the manufacturers are engaging the bass clarinet market properly. I think that while it's a relatively small market, it's considerably bigger than any of them imagine.
I'm going to hold my cards close because I've been thinking about this a great deal over the last year and am thinking about doing something about it.
Chris (yet another one)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-24 02:22
Chris,
I look forward to your future efforts and wish you much success.
FWIW, I have done fine in the pit and with several wind ensembles using just a low Eb bass. However, both my basses have double octave and alternate Ab/Eb keys.
Hank
Post Edited (2015-12-24 05:18)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-12-24 06:17
Hi Hank,
First of all, thanks
Secondly, I didn't mean to give the impression that I think their aren't some great older horns out there. I play a Selmer 37 that I absolutely love, but I also have played a few Buffets and I think the (post 1999) Prestiges are awesome, too!
In my opinion, there's nothing between $2k and $12k out there, as far as new horns go, that are worth considering (outside the Lyrique). I don't think that's going to be addressed any time soon (or ever). Certainly not by the big manufacturers (for various reasons). I think that vintage horn ownership is usually more hassle than it's worth (much more so than sopranos). Personally, I feel that older Buffets and Selmers and Leblancs and Kohlerts and the various stencils come with way too much baggage. Like you say, new materials and technology are key.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-24 16:22
CEC,
Agreed, there are older instruments out there that are great. Please excuse any comments below that I mentioned earlier but they are still germane.
I have a Selmer Model 30 bass as well as a Ridenour 925e so I span a 50-60 year range. I also play a new Yamaha CS Custom Bb soprano but own as well as cherish a Leblanc L200. To further define my arsenal, I have classic Selmer Mark VI alto and tenor saxes but have stepped into a more recent era with a Selmer Super 80 alto and a Yamaha YTS 475 tenor. I mentioned these instruments earlier.
However, as with an older automobile or even the human body, time does take its toll. Your mind might be that of a 20 year-old but the your bones tell you a different story. The same with classic musical instruments; they can get a little cranky/finicky in their senior years.
Your assertion that the $2K to 12K window is wide open is right on. While the Ridenour bass is a tremendous player and an outstanding value at $2K, what if there was a bass clarinet at a $5-6K price point? Would there be a market for it and what would the instrument be made of and what features would it possess? I think this is what you are hinting at, Chris.
Tom Ridenour has brought out some pretty neat upgrades to the original TR 147 clarinet. As I previously hinted at, what would an increase in price of a say a thousand dollars yield on the 925e or c? Yamaha seems to have an excellent record in passing down, over time, features of higher priced instruments to lower level models. My YTS 475 tenor is a good example of that kind of thinking; this sax gives up nothing to my Mark VI and in some cases, blows it away. But the YTS 475 does not have the cache of a 5 digit Mark VI.
HRL
PS Which of my instruments do I use most often? The newer ones for a whole lot of practical reasons just the same as preferring newer MPs and ligatures although I have pretty much all the classics in my mouthpiece/ligature drawer.
Post Edited (2015-12-24 16:32)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-24 17:09
The only intermediate model basses are Buffet and Noblet, but they're no more than wooden versions of entry level plastic basses as they still have the same basic keywork with single speaker mechanism (throat Bb vent and speaker vent) and no LH Ab/Eb lever.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-24 17:23
Chris P,
I think the mid-priced Leblanc Model 60 bass has the same entry level configuration. Yes, a "wooden version of the entry level plastic..." which is not what I had in mind in the post above.
HRL
Post Edited (2015-12-24 19:33)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-12-25 02:23
The "Leblanc Model 60" is exactly the former Noblet, re-badged. EVERY single-register-vent Leblanc bass clarinet, from the Vito to the "professional" Model 400, is the same instrument acoustically and mechanically. Only the high-end double vent models (330 and 430?) are different in any meaningful way.
Want that Leblanc bass clarinet sound (whatever that is)? Save some money and buy a Vito.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-25 03:55
HAHAHA!
Sad, but true.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-12-25 03:56)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-12-25 07:13
I played a school-owned Noblet in college orchestra for a semester ("Grand Canyon Suite" of all things). A skull and crossbones was carved into it - definitely appropriate.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-12-27 00:46
I got through college just fine on a Noblet (with Charles Bay re-angled neck). But there was a lot less competition back then
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-27 07:24
When do you reckon the post 1999 Buffet Prestige bass will become a 'classic'?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-12-27 09:38
>> When do you reckon the post 1999 Buffet Prestige bass will become a 'classic'? <<
IMO possibly the best made bass clarinet (as far as key design and build), but unfortunately I see a gradual decline in quality. At least in the last five years but even a few years before that. They also cheapened the design a little bit but build quality and QC are definitely worse.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-27 15:55
I also haven't been overly impressed with the quality of the post-1999 Prestige basses in the last ten years, but glad I bought mine in 2000 as it has slotted adjusting screw heads instead of hexagonal ones and before they did that funny turning on the lower joint. I do feel the ones made a year or so after mine had much better designed bridge/linkage keys, but they still didn't offer the extra linkage arm from the RH main action to make a true articulated C#/G# mechanism (which is why I had one fitted to mine).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Nadine
Date: 2015-12-30 02:20
Attachment: Bass clarinet2.jpg (298k)
Attachment: Bass clarinet3.jpg (174k)
Attachment: Bass clarinet4.jpg (230k)
Attachment: Bass clarinet5.jpg (249k)
Attachment: Bass clarinet6.jpg (231k)
Hello, I am asking for assistance in identifying the age and lineage of an older bass clarinet that I just purchased for personal use.
I am an older hobby soprano clarinetist by experience and play daily on two R13's, one from 1983, and the other from 2006. It's a fun hobby for me. My husband is a hobby pianist and sometimes we play duets. I also enjoy playing in the local wind ensemble.
OK, so in wanting to stick with the Buffet Crampon manufacturer , I purchased a vintage bass clarinet yesterday on Ebay. It will be arriving next week.
It looks like it has been stored for quite a while, the silver keys are green.
I was told it is an Evette Schaeffer K series pre R13 bass clarinet, with the serial number M19894. All my searches online do not turn anything up.
Would any of you experienced folks know anything about this?
I've never played the bass clarinet, but I've always wanted to give it a try. There's a local music shop in Bangor, Maine that does clarinet restoration. He can tinker with it over the course of the winter. It has no foot peg, so it will need one added on, and I need to find a case for it.
I've enclosed some pictures. I hope I made a good investment.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-30 03:14
The Evette&Schaeffer and plastic Evette basses were made by Malerne who also made some basses for Conn. Your one has unplated nickel silver keywork which is pretty normal - others had nickel plated keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-12-30 04:34
Hey Nadine,
This looks like a wood bass to me (Chris P. and Dave Spiegelthal have better eyes). I think the Protec bass case is a pretty nice set up; I do keep my upper and lower section assembled since when you put them together, there is the bridge key to contend with all too often. The repair person can solder a bass peg attachment on the bell after he or she takes out the dent in the bottom bow.
I think you will have about $500 in repairs/repad (assuming there are no cracks) plus the case. What shape is the mouthpiece in? Then you get to see how the bass plays intonation wise.
I hope you did not pay too much for the instrument.
Good luck,
HRL
Post Edited (2015-12-30 06:28)
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Author: Nadine
Date: 2015-12-30 05:25
Attachment: Bass clarinet.jpg (370k)
Thanks Hank and Chris.
I have not seen the clarinet it in person yet. There are other photos I did not post that show the wood body of the clarinet better. It looks to be in good shape with no cracks.
I have not seen the mouthpiece yet. It has a cover over it in all the pictures I've seen. I don't know what to expect when I actually get to play it. I use a Vandoren M13 on my R13 soprano with a 3.5 V12 reed.
I'm thinking it may have been made in 1969 based on the Evette Shaeffer Buffet Crampon numbering???
I bought it for 700 and figured it would cost around 500 for repairs. Seems cheap enough for a wood bass clarinet.
I hope I can play it. Will have to experiment with positioning, neck strap, mouthpiece and reeds. Lots to learn!
Any lesson or music suggestions welcome.
Thanks, Nadine
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-30 06:45
I'm a bit concerned about the LH F/C lever as it's the wrong way round in the photo. I hope it's just been put on wrong instead of having been bent 180° so the touchpiece is facing the wrong way.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-12-30 07:18
Looks like it's missing the upper point screw, so nothing to worry about there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-12-31 22:30
Hank,
That's a lovely stable of horns you have! I'll be picking up an alto sax this coming year and the Yamahas are definitely on my short list. I completely agree with your thoughts about the company.
Dave,
You are a better man than I!
Chris - the one that signs without a period
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-01-01 09:58
>> I also haven't been overly impressed with the quality of the post-1999 Prestige basses in the last ten years, but glad I bought mine in 2000 as it has slotted adjusting screw heads instead of hexagonal ones and before they did that funny turning on the lower joint. <<
I had one from around 1999 or maybe 2000 and then replaced it with one from maybe 2004. The latter one has the "funny" turning which is just made of two parts. I've tried many of both types and found no disadvantage at all.
Just as an example the most recent one I saw, which was bought new a few months ago (in one of the most reputable clarinet stores BTW) had issues from new that mine didn't need in the more than ten years I have it.
The adjustment screw holders now have a simpler shape which is simply a way to lower cost, no disadvantage in the way it works, just looks a bit more industrial.
The design itself is mostly very good so after adjusting all issues it works as well as any bass of the same model. It's just unfortunate that a new top model bass comes with (repairable) issues that the same model ten years didn't have.
>> I do feel the ones made a year or so after mine had much better designed bridge/linkage keys <<
I can't remember the linkages on the old one, so not sure how they improved them later. Do you have some photos of those?
>> but they still didn't offer the extra linkage arm from the RH main action to make a true articulated C#/G# mechanism (which is why I had one fitted to mine). <<
An articulated C#/G# would block about half the multiphonics that I constantly use so I rather not have it.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-01-01 16:16
CEC,
Thanks for the comments on my little instrumental family. I have always been a "late-adopter" or a "classic-hugger" but some of these newer instruments are really, really good.
My repair tech Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds has been carrying Chateau saxophones for a couple of years. If he endorses them and an area Big 10 school has bought several for the sax studio, you might want to try one when your search for an alto picks up. A bit cheaper than the Yamahas.
No bass clarinet yet, though.
HRL
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-01-01 19:19
With the introduction of the Buffet Tosca bass clarinet, we have been ushered into a new "Golden Age" for bass clarinets.
I admit I am a Buffet dealer, and possibly prejudiced, but I have played all manner of bass clarinets for 50 years now. I know not everyone agrees with me, but I think the Tosca bass is simply a wonderful advance in the evolution of the bass clarinet.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-01-01 19:57
A most informative thread! Just wanted to add a word of caution for people with small hands who might want to buy an instrument used from an online auction. Do make every effort to try out a bass of the same model and around the same vintage, if possible, before buying online.
Over the years, changes in keywork have made some vintage models a difficult stretch for me. (I can barely reach an octave on the piano.) I've been playing an American Selmer (formerly Bundy) bass that's no problem, and sounds better than I ever expected from a student bass -- but I've tried older professional-quality basses (particularly Leblancs) with keywork that strained my hands so much I knew I wouldn't be able to put in serious practice time on them.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-01-01 20:44
Walter,
I see your comments as a wonderful contribution to the thread. So you're a Buffet dealer; your reputation for honest appraisals removes any thoughts of bias in my mind.
You certainly help us to more closely identify what might be seen as a "classic bass clarinet" in 40 to 50 years. Too bad I will not be able to see how the whole thing turns out.
HRL
PS Toledo has changed quite a bit since you were here.
Post Edited (2016-01-01 20:53)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2016-01-02 01:22
Lelia, I had to have a new touch piece welded onto my Series 9 bass, for the left-hand C/G (ring finger) key. The left-hand touch pieces on that model (and all older Selmers, as far as I know) are all in-line and the wide finger spread was awkward, particularly with the somewhat too-outboard location of the LH levers. Getting around was problematic and I was developing overuse pain with concentrated practice; moving the touch piece slightly up and out (closer to the other LH touch pieces and LH levers) took care of it. (Actually, it's an additional touch piece, soldered on top of the old one; easily removable if it doesn't suit a future owner.)
You raise a good point. Some people can play in-line flutes and some can't; some people hate older Conn sax ergonomics and prefer the Selmer saxes' left-hand finger spread. Why they didn't make their basses with that kind of ergonomic consideration in mind, I can't imagine. (I assume the new ones are better?)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-01-02 01:40
The more recent Selmers have an adjustable fingerplate for LH3 so it can be slid and locked into position to suit your hand size. The downside is they can fall off and get lost and replacements aren't exactly cheap being Selmer.
I think now they also have adjustable LH 2 and 3 and also RH 2 and 3 fingerplates so infinite adjustments can be made to suit most players. I think they only slide back and forth as opposed to up and down the instrument to bring them in closer should you find the stretch too much.
Buffet basses have an extension tab cast as part of the LH3 fingerplate, so unlike the Selmer one, that's going nowhere.
I definitely prefer offset LH3 keys on flutes and saxes with offset RH main action toneholes/pad cups as they're far more ergonomic than all inline. I had a Chinese bass sax which was a Conn/Buescher copy and it was near impossible to play the RH main action as the toneholes were all inline and it had a massively wide bore so even with relatively large hands I still had trouble. If they had offset the RH main action, it would have been much easier to play - same with old saxes and SML bari saxes which have all inline toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-01-02 17:50
DougR, yes, those older saxophones also can be big problems (in both senses of "big"). My favorite saxes are C.G. Conns from the 1920s. I love the sound, more mellow and less piercing than modern saxophones, but the keywork is a stretch.
On my 1926 C.G. Conn bass, the left-hand pinkie keys make me reach so far that I tend to use alternate right-hand fingerings whenever possible (even when extremely inconvenient for the passagework!) and I have to limit my practice time, even though that's my favorite sax by far. I can't use the thumb-rest at all. I have to stand up to play that sax, with it resting on a support stand, so that I can move my entire right hand around to the front in order to reach all the right-handed keys and reach the mouthpiece at the same time. I don't mind, because I'd put that sax on a support stand regardless. No way would I drape something that huge and heavy around my neck or shoulders! I tried out a contrabass sax and realized there's no point in trying to buy one, because I'm just too short to play the old monster.
I've found that the bass and contra clarinets are much easier for me to manage. The reach is shorter by only a fraction of an inch, but enough to make a difference in how long I can practice.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-01-02 18:07
Attachment: image.jpeg (1733k)
I used epoxy putty to extend down my rh1 key for an easier reach on my Kessler bass clarinet.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Karlyle
Date: 2020-04-24 10:29
Has anyone looked into buffet model 215 basses? I tried looking for info but couldn’t find any. Thanks
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